Rumor: 2023-24 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: Part Deux

[Ararana]

Maybe McDavid is the problem.

I'm just going to put this timestamped video here....

 

[Pokecheque]

I'm just going to put this timestamped video here....

Of course Nathan MacKinnon does shit like that all the time, but the Avs don't really use that as an excuse.

 

[Ararana]

Of course Nathan MacKinnon does shit like that all the time, but the Avs don't really use that as an excuse.

Unlike Edmonton, Colorado put a good team around MacKinnon to mitigate some of his dumbass decisions.

 

[niwotsblessing]

The first play in this video exemplifies the issue for me. Makar knocks the puck away from McDavid and Cale retrieves the puck. McDavid does a long lazy loop and leaves Makar with the puck. Heartless.

 

[The Moops]

The first play in this video exemplifies the issue for me. Makar knocks the puck away from McDavid and Cale retrieves the puck. McDavid does a long lazy loop and leaves Makar with the puck. Heartless.

Remember guys, Drai being injured is the only thing that prevented us from being swept in that series lmao

 

[Pokecheque]

Unlike Edmonton, Colorado put a good team around MacKinnon to mitigate some of his dumbass decisions.

Exactly.

At no point has McDavid had a legit franchise goalie or number one defenseman playing behind him. Hell, you could argue he's never had proper depth at center behind him.

The mistake IMO wasn't building around McDavid, IMO if there was a mistake made early on it was building around McDavid AND Draisaitl. But even then a reasonably competent front office should be able to build a legit contender around those two, you just have to acknowledge what their weaknesses are and adjust accordingly--y'know, by maybe going out and getting an actual goaltender for starters.

 

[Ararana]

The first play in this video exemplifies the issue for me. Makar knocks the puck away from McDavid and Cale retrieves the puck. McDavid does a long lazy loop and leaves Makar with the puck. Heartless.

Sigh... time to watch the WCF series again....

BTW, I have the full games of every win in the cup run on my plex server. Anyone who wants access just shoot me a PM.

Exactly.

At no point has McDavid had a legit franchise goalie or number one defenseman playing behind him. Hell, you could argue he's never had proper depth at center behind him.

The mistake IMO wasn't building around McDavid, IMO if there was a mistake made early on it was building around McDavid AND Draisaitl. But even then a reasonably competent front office should be able to build a legit contender around those two, you just have to acknowledge what their weaknesses are and adjust accordingly--y'know, by maybe going out and getting an actual goaltender for starters.

Agreed. It's pretty much my original point that McDavid is the prime example of having his career screwed because of the draft.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Remember guys, Drai being injured defensively is the only thing that prevented us from being swept in that series lmao

FIFY. Offensively he was not injured. Weird I know...but he proved that such a thing can exist.

 

[The Moops]

Sigh... time to watch the WCF series again....

BTW, I have the full games of every win in the cup run on my plex server. Anyone who wants access just shoot me a PM.

View attachment 775569



Agreed. It's pretty much my original point that McDavid is the prime example of having his career screwed because of the draft.

Can I steal the files from you for my Jellyfin server?

 

[Ararana]

Can I steal the files from you for my Jellyfin server?

PM me

 

[The Abusement Park]

Maybe McDavid is the problem.

I mean yeah the oilers have been a futile mess for like the last 20 years, but the best player in the league is clearly the issue.

 

[dahrougem2]

Exactly.

At no point has McDavid had a legit franchise goalie or number one defenseman playing behind him. Hell, you could argue he's never had proper depth at center behind him.

The mistake IMO wasn't building around McDavid, IMO if there was a mistake made early on it was building around McDavid AND Draisaitl. But even then a reasonably competent front office should be able to build a legit contender around those two, you just have to acknowledge what their weaknesses are and adjust accordingly--y'know, by maybe going out and getting an actual goaltender for starters.

The Oilers have done everything wrong. They've been hellbent in the past on playing 97 and 29 together. If that's the case, the Oilers have never had a true 2C who you can win in the playoffs with (RNH can't play playoff hockey).

Then you look at them dedicating SO much money to the wings with Hyman and Kane, on top of whichever of Draisaitl/RNH is playing wing that night, and it's easy to see why the bottom six continuously sucks.

The defense is whatever. Nurse being overpaid is a huge issue. They "tried" to rectify things with Keith, Ceci, Ekholm, etc but the team as a whole just can't play good defensive hockey for whatever reason.

The goaltending is laughable. That's on them again thinking Jack Campbell was the solution, then having to force Skinner into a starter role.

 

[lionsDen]

I was mentioning it due to a statement I saw in this quote.

View attachment 775457

Makar is breaking all time records. Anyone who thinks byram is gonna be better then makar is sniffing glue. Edit: hench caught the one.

 

[Bender]

Byram thinks he's the most talented player in any game, when he's probably somewhere around 8-10 on any given night. This tends to be a tough thing for a lot of players to get.

In a different way, think about Newhook. His whole career, he was a better skater than anybody else that touched the ice that night. This allowed him to shine above and utilize his other above average to good skills. Yet as he progressed up, those skills were not good enough overcome his loss of skating margin. Once you get to the NHL where half the league is as good of skater as him, and many of them bigger and more talented, he didn't have anything to separate at a high level. He doesn't have the skating to be a plus guy at center so the other skills have to shine... when they don't he's about as bland as it gets. You give him less ice, with less responsibility on the wing with somebody clearing some space, he can be a good complimentary winger with a plus shot and give you good transition speed.

Byram has this issue as a defensemen, but he's not settling into his strengths yet. Part of that has to be coaching, part has to be Byram.



Not finished, but it isn't like he's super young or inexperienced. Luke Hughes is showing flashes of taking control and he just turned 20. Seider is already a #1. Sanderson looks like a #1D at 21. Mid first guys like Guhle, York, Harley, Schneider, etc don't look far off. Byram as a top 5 pick should (rightfully) be expected to be in that Hughes/Seider/Sanderson conversation.

To be 100% fair, a huge perception of 'great play' happens to be tied with production and guys like L. Hugues, Seider and Sanderson have all had fantastic opportunities on the power play to start their careers despite the 'vets' that were ahead of them on the depth chart.

L. Hughes - 3:02 minutes AVG PP/per game - 2023-24 (rookie season)

Seider - 2:53 mins AVG PP/per game - 2021-22 (rookie season)
Seider - 3:06 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23
Seider - 3:23 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

Sanderson - 2:30 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23 (rookie season)
Sanderson - 3:28 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

Byram - 0:47 mins AVG PP/per game - 2020-21 (rookie season)
Byram - 0:58 mins AVG PP/per game - 2021-22
Byram - 1:19 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23
Byram - 1:12 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

For Byram. it's especially brutal when you consider that when he does get on the PP, it's been the paltry garbage last 20 seconds part of a 3-D-Man PP opportunity that goes nowhere.

I just think it's important to consider that part of it because if Byram had has even close to the same kind of opportunity that those other 3 guys have had, he would have probably had a hell of a lot more points. That's not to say that his overall play would have been amazing but when you couple that with the way he's shown to be able to play (2022 playoffs) I think increased production would have at least tempered expectations to a time like right now when he's not playing particularly well.

You know that I was on the same page as you during the 2018 draft and I pretty much agree with your take on Byram. My personal opinion is that the Avs will probably need to trade Byram before they are in a situation where they have to re-sign him and I think they know that.

 

[Ararana]

To be 100% fair, a huge perception of 'great play' happens to be tied with production and guys like L. Hugues, Seider and Sanderson have all had fantastic opportunities on the power play to start their careers despite the 'vets' that were ahead of them on the depth chart.

L. Hughes - 3:02 minutes AVG PP/per game - 2023-24 (rookie season)

Seider - 2:53 mins AVG PP/per game - 2021-22 (rookie season)
Seider - 3:06 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23
Seider - 3:23 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

Sanderson - 2:30 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23 (rookie season)
Sanderson - 3:28 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

Byram - 0:47 mins AVG PP/per game - 2020-21 (rookie season)
Byram - 0:58 mins AVG PP/per game - 2021-22
Byram - 1:19 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23
Byram - 1:12 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

For Byram. it's especially brutal when you consider that when he does get on the PP, it's been the paltry garbage last 20 seconds part of a 3-D-Man PP opportunity that goes nowhere.

I just think it's important to consider that part of it because if Byram had has even close to the same kind of opportunity that those other 3 guys have had, he would have probably had a hell of a lot more points. That's not to say that his overall play would have been amazing but when you couple that with the way he's shown to be able to play (2022 playoffs) I think increased production would have at least tempered expectations to a time like right now when he's not playing particularly well.

You know that I was on the same page as you during the 2018 draft and I pretty much agree with your take on Byram. My personal opinion is that the Avs will probably need to trade Byram before they are in a situation where they have to re-sign him and I think they know that.

Are these 5v5 numbers or total TOI?

 

[Pokecheque]

Agreed. It's pretty much my original point that McDavid is the prime example of having his career screwed because of the draft.

IMO he never should have signed that long-term deal. Don't know if he was spooked a little because of that injury he suffered his rookie season or what, but he should've taken a short term deal and basically put the Oilers on notice, you have 2 or so seasons to get your shit together or I'm gone. And he would've absolutely cashed in no matter what after that.

Mind you, I don't think he's ENTIRELY free from blame, but I also don't think he's some total headcase either. It's nothing less than a clown organization's gross incompetence that's prevented them from building a proper team or even a reasonable facsimile thereof around him.

 

[lionsDen]

Maybe McDavid is the problem.

Mcdavid is fine. Playwise he’s your offense. Get guys that can insulate him a bit defensively…. Now in the room I couldn’t say. I say this all the time he doesn’t seem to have the dog in him. I really like Mack’s mindset.

 

[dahrougem2]

You know that I was on the same page as you during the 2018 draft and I pretty much agree with your take on Byram. My personal opinion is that the Avs will probably need to trade Byram before they are in a situation where they have to re-sign him and I think they know that.

I think they knew that prior to Girard entering Player Assistance program. Now? I don't know how you go about trading Bowen Byram when Girard is such an uncertainty and statistically speaking more likely to never play for the Avs again than he is to resume a regular top-4 role.

 

[henchman21]

To be 100% fair, a huge perception of 'great play' happens to be tied with production and guys like L. Hugues, Seider and Sanderson have all had fantastic opportunities on the power play to start their careers despite the 'vets' that were ahead of them on the depth chart.

L. Hughes - 3:02 minutes AVG PP/per game - 2023-24 (rookie season)

Seider - 2:53 mins AVG PP/per game - 2021-22 (rookie season)
Seider - 3:06 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23
Seider - 3:23 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

Sanderson - 2:30 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23 (rookie season)
Sanderson - 3:28 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

Byram - 0:47 mins AVG PP/per game - 2020-21 (rookie season)
Byram - 0:58 mins AVG PP/per game - 2021-22
Byram - 1:19 mins AVG PP/per game - 2022-23
Byram - 1:12 mins AVG PP/per game - 2023-24

For Byram. it's especially brutal when you consider that when he does get on the PP, it's been the paltry garbage last 20 seconds part of a 3-D-Man PP opportunity that goes nowhere.

I just think it's important to consider that part of it because if Byram had has even close to the same kind of opportunity that those other 3 guys have had, he would have probably had a hell of a lot more points. That's not to say that his overall play would have been amazing but when you couple that with the way he's shown to be able to play (2022 playoffs) I think increased production would have at least tempered expectations to a time like right now when he's not playing particularly well.

You know that I was on the same page as you during the 2018 draft and I pretty much agree with your take on Byram. My personal opinion is that the Avs will probably need to trade Byram before they are in a situation where they have to re-sign him and I think they know that.

I'm much, much more concerned about Byram's 5v5 play than his PP play. Power play is bonus and yeah he'd get some more points from having more power play minutes... but that is just so far down the list of my concerns. I frankly don't care if he gets any PP time as long as the 5v5 stuff improves. He hasn't shown any ability thusfar to carry a pairing with a weaker partner. All of his good numbers are with either Makar or G. G isn't perfect, but he's a 3 at least. Makar is clearly Makar. Put him with Manson, JMFJ, or others and his play diminishes greatly. To be a high-end defensemen, he needs to be able to carry a pairing. If he can't do that on a middle pairing with a 4/5 or 5 type, he will certainly have issues doing it as a 1 with a 2/3 type. This is where I think his game really needs to step up. He needs to be the guy elevating pairings, not the one getting elevated.

On the opportunity... he's simply not taking Makar's minutes so that is gone, but more is out there on the PP if he earns it. He hasn't surpassed Toews on anything, and him not being able to do that is partially why Toews got re-signed and why he may have to be traded as you stated.

I think they knew that prior to Girard entering Player Assistance program. Now? I don't know how you go about trading Bowen Byram when Girard is such an uncertainty and statistically speaking more likely to never play for the Avs again than he is to resume a regular top-4 role.

What are the statistics of never playing again for the Avs? That doesn't seem correct.

 

[Bender]

Are these 5v5 numbers or total TOI?

Only Power Play ice-time average per game.

 

[Ararana]

Only Power Play ice-time average per game.

ah, gotcha. Duh.

 

[dahrougem2]

I'm much, much more concerned about Byram's 5v5 play than his PP play. Power play is bonus and yeah he'd get some more points from having more power play minutes... but that is just so far down the list of my concerns. I frankly don't care if he gets any PP time as long as the 5v5 stuff improves. He hasn't shown any ability thusfar to carry a pairing with a weaker partner. All of his good numbers are with either Makar or G. G isn't perfect, but he's a 3 at least. Makar is clearly Makar. Put him with Manson, JMFJ, or others and his play diminishes greatly. To be a high-end defensemen, he needs to be able to carry a pairing. If he can't do that on a middle pairing with a 4/5 or 5 type, he will certainly have issues doing it as a 1 with a 2/3 type. This is where I think his game really needs to step up. He needs to be the guy elevating pairings, not the one getting elevated.

On the opportunity... he's simply not taking Makar's minutes so that is gone, but more is out there on the PP if he earns it. He hasn't surpassed Toews on anything, and him not being able to do that is partially why Toews got re-signed and why he may have to be traded as you stated.


What are the statistics of never playing again for the Avs? That doesn't seem correct.

What I mean is players who have historically entered the Player Assistance program tend to not resume roles with their team, especially meaningful roles. At least when that info has been made public. So I don't know if the Avs are truly counting on Sam Girard to be back with them in a meaningful role.

 

[henchman21]

What I mean is players who have historically entered the Player Assistance program tend to not resume roles with their team, especially meaningful roles. At least when that info has been made public. So I don't know if the Avs are truly counting on Sam Girard to be back with them in a meaningful role.

I guess I’d like to see that spelled out. I don’t actually know beyond anecdotal. Drouin and Ryan came back to various levels. Wilson didn’t come back. Vrana was moved in fairly short order.

We don’t always know who is using the program either, especially in the offseason.

 

[BaconNater]

Possible that Bo's ego has never recovered since not being recognized by that cop at the Cup parade

 

[Bender]

I'm much, much more concerned about Byram's 5v5 play than his PP play. Power play is bonus and yeah he'd get some more points from having more power play minutes... but that is just so far down the list of my concerns. I frankly don't care if he gets any PP time as long as the 5v5 stuff improves. He hasn't shown any ability thusfar to carry a pairing with a weaker partner. All of his good numbers are with either Makar or G. G isn't perfect, but he's a 3 at least. Makar is clearly Makar. Put him with Manson, JMFJ, or others and his play diminishes greatly. To be a high-end defensemen, he needs to be able to carry a pairing. If he can't do that on a middle pairing with a 4/5 or 5 type, he will certainly have issues doing it as a 1 with a 2/3 type. This is where I think his game really needs to step up. He needs to be the guy elevating pairings, not the one getting elevated.

On the opportunity... he's simply not taking Makar's minutes so that is gone, but more is out there on the PP if he earns it. He hasn't surpassed Toews on anything, and him not being able to do that is partially why Toews got re-signed and why he may have to be traded as you stated.


What are the statistics of never playing again for the Avs? That doesn't seem correct.

Right and I agree but because we watch Byram every single game - we see how well or how poorly he is playing every single time he's on the ice.

But that's my point - unless, you're telling me that you're also specifically watching every single game and minute that each of those other players (Hughes, Seider & Sanderson) are playing, it's not inconceivable to entertain that they're also prone to having bad stretches where they just aren't playing as well as they could be... but still putting up points on the scoreboard.

My belief is that for Byram to really reach his full potential, he'll need to be 'given the reigns' to a top PP unit so that he can gain the experience and confidence to run a PP. He is not going to be doing that for the Avs unless we are horribly unlucky with injuries... (hmrph...I guess he'll be on PP1 by mid-january )

I guess the hope is that he can someday become a Josh Morrissey type of player but what I saw his draft year was a Keith Yandle type of player and I still see a lot of that in his game today.