Speculation: 2023-24 Roster Thread

[DavidBL]

People just sit on the usage argument and give it a pass.

Idk how you could actually watch fowler this year and not see his game has also been off, on top of the bad / over usage and questionable partners.

It could be much worse statistically too, with more mins comes more opportunities and better opportunities to pick up points.

Fandom runs deep, I guess. Rather defend the guy they’re a fan of than want the team to improve.

Neither of you have suggested a reasonable solution to Fowler playing on the top pair. None of the kids can do it better because if they could they would be. Their usage would reflect that. Just because guys like Minty have promise does not mean they are capable of it now and throwing them in the deep end is not a real solution. We don't have anyone to play top pair on the right side. That's true with or without Fowler. That's not Fowlers fault. Simple fact is Fowler is the only player remotely capable of playing top pair minutes. You want a top pair to be successful you need a full pair not half of one which is what we have right now. We might as well run 4 forwards with Fowler. The good thing is if we can get a top pair RD that compliments Fowler they should also compliment the upcoming young LD as those players are all similar archetypes so once they are ready they already have someone to play with who can also play those minutes.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Neither of you have suggested a reasonable solution to Fowler playing on the top pair. None of the kids can do it better because if they could they would be. Their usage would reflect that. Just because guys like Minty have promise does not mean they are capable of it now and throwing them in the deep end is not a real solution. We don't have anyone to play top pair on the right side. That's true with or without Fowler. That's not Fowlers fault. Simple fact is Fowler is the only player remotely capable of playing top pair minutes. You want a top pair to be successful you need a full pair not half of one which is what we have right now. We might as well run 4 forwards with Fowler. The good thing is if we can get a top pair RD that compliments Fowler they should also compliment the upcoming young LD as those players are all similar archetypes so once they are ready they already have someone to play with who can also play those minutes.

i think that’s where the disagreement is, he’s not exactly capable of the mins(more so this year than previous), you can distribute the mins better than they have been and maybe that helps fowler out, and gives the young guys more meaningful and situational mins. It’s supposed to be a “development year” well let the some
Of the young guys develop pk and power play time…. And at the same time you take mins/pressure off cam, while the young players/future get important mins for their development.


I’m not sure their usage reflects anything really…. Lacombe/Vaaks/luneau and zellweger have all been tossed on top pairing with fowler, I think it’s been pretty obvious throughout the year that certain plays have mins watched.

 

[Deuce22]

Neither of you have suggested a reasonable solution to Fowler playing on the top pair. None of the kids can do it better because if they could they would be. Their usage would reflect that. Just because guys like Minty have promise does not mean they are capable of it now and throwing them in the deep end is not a real solution. We don't have anyone to play top pair on the right side. That's true with or without Fowler. That's not Fowlers fault. Simple fact is Fowler is the only player remotely capable of playing top pair minutes. You want a top pair to be successful you need a full pair not half of one which is what we have right now. We might as well run 4 forwards with Fowler. The good thing is if we can get a top pair RD that compliments Fowler they should also compliment the upcoming young LD as those players are all similar archetypes so once they are ready they already have someone to play with who can also play those minutes.

I would increase the minutes of the Gudas pairing and the Russian one. Bring Fowler's minutes down by taking him off the PK. Perhaps give Fowler more O zone starts and Gudas more D zone face off situations.

 

[JAHV]

I would increase the minutes of the Gudas pairing and the Russian one. Bring Fowler's minutes down by taking him off the PK. Perhaps give Fowler more O zone starts and Gudas more D zone face off situations.

I don't think we want to see any more of Lyubushkin than we already do, even if it comes with Mintyukov.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Fandom runs deep, I guess. Rather defend the guy they’re a fan of than want the team to improve.

@DavidBL nailed the point, you don't have an actual solution. You have superficial bandages (see your comment below). This team is on a rebuild/dev season on purpose by GM Verbeek. We are sacrificing rookie LaCombe to shelter and protect rookie Minty. To improve the team, Verbeek needs to acquire talents that is an improvement from what we have today.

How many times do people have to inform you that Fowler is a 2nd pairing OFD forced to play as a top-pairing shutdown D? It's like someone telling you that Eakins isn't in charge of the PP unit, but you cannot let go of it until everyone is saying Brown's the culprit the following season (this season) and you haven't admitted you were obviously and obliviously incorrect of your assessment due to your fandom hate on Eakins. lmfao!

This year's Fowler is the same as last year's Fowler. Verbeek needs to find a top-pairing, shutdown D at a minimum to improve this team.

I would increase the minutes of the Gudas pairing and the Russian one. Bring Fowler's minutes down by taking him off the PK. Perhaps give Fowler more O zone starts and Gudas more D zone face off situations.

Fowler's ATOI for the season is 25:03. In the past four games, Fowler's ATOI is about 23:00. Fowler is at over 50% OZ starts. Gudas is at 60% DZ starts. Sure, we're 2-2, but the two wins were ugly wins against bad teams. It's a bandage thing, not an actual solution. This is what a rebuild/dev season is like and there are no quick fixes unless one wants to give up a lot of assets or a significant part of the salary cap to end the rebuild. Next year is still going to be another development season at forward and defense.

 

[Deuce22]

@DavidBL nailed the point, you don't have an actual solution. You have superficial bandages (see your comment below). This team is on a rebuild/dev season on purpose by GM Verbeek. We are sacrificing rookie LaCombe to shelter and protect rookie Minty. To improve the team, Verbeek needs to acquire talents that is an improvement from what we have today.

How many times do people have to inform you that Fowler is a 2nd pairing OFD forced to play as a top-pairing shutdown D? It's like someone telling you that Eakins isn't in charge of the PP unit, but you cannot let go of it until everyone is saying Brown's the culprit the following season (this season) and you haven't admitted you were obviously and obliviously incorrect of your assessment due to your fandom hate on Eakins. lmfao!

This year's Fowler is the same as last year's Fowler. Verbeek needs to find a top-pairing, shutdown D at a minimum to improve this team.



Fowler's ATOI for the season is 25:03. In the past four games, Fowler's ATOI is about 23:00. Fowler is at over 50% OZ starts. Gudas is at 60% DZ starts. Sure, we're 2-2, but the two wins were ugly wins against bad teams. It's a bandage thing, not an actual solution. This is what a rebuild/dev season is like and there are no quick fixes unless one wants to give up a lot of assets or a significant part of the salary cap to end the rebuild. Next year is still going to be another development season at forward and defense.

You are absolutely correct that this is a band-aid. But it doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I know what Fowler is, your constant repetition isn't required. Verbeek isn't going to snap his fingers and be able to pair Fowler with a RHD stud. Calling out Fowler's poor play in his own zone is met with excuses and accusations of hating. You love to cite that our young D aren't ready, posting a prospective D corps for next season that didn't include Mintyukov. Also telling anyone who will read that Zellweger isn't ready. I respect those opinions even though I don't agree. Blaming Fowler's poor play on him being a #2 D is weak, this team has many players who aren't being used in their optimum roles.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

You are absolutely correct that this is a band-aid. But it doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I know what Fowler is, your constant repetition isn't required. Verbeek isn't going to snap his fingers and be able to pair Fowler with a RHD stud. Calling out Fowler's poor play in his own zone is met with excuses and accusations of hating. You love to cite that our young D aren't ready, posting a prospective D corps for next season that didn't include Mintyukov. Also telling anyone who will read that Zellweger isn't ready. I respect those opinions even though I don't agree. Blaming Fowler's poor play on him being a #2 D is weak, this team has many players who aren't being used in their optimum roles.

In their defense, I do generally hate on fowler(as an hockey player not as a person) and have for a few years.

I did take a lot of hate for suggesting Mintyukov would be nhl ready this year from a lot of people here. All these rookies that wernt close to nhl ready have looked like at minimal nhl players…. If fowler isn’t a long term plan/fit, I see nothing wrong with giving young guys reps on pk/pp and harder mins…. No one suggesting Mintyukov should play 25+ a night but I think you could give some of those guys more mins and hope fowlers game looks better.

There’s also other options to fill in with fowler with that could be fits longer term in the line ups. When fowler sucks it’s everyone else’s fault but his, but when other people play those mins and they don’t do well it’s their own fault lol

 

[DavidBL]

i think that’s where the disagreement is, he’s not exactly capable of the mins(more so this year than previous), you can distribute the mins better than they have been and maybe that helps fowler out, and gives the young guys more meaningful and situational mins. It’s supposed to be a “development year” well let the some
Of the young guys develop pk and power play time…. And at the same time you take mins/pressure off cam, while the young players/future get important mins for their development.


I’m not sure their usage reflects anything really…. Lacombe/Vaaks/luneau and zellweger have all been tossed on top pairing with fowler, I think it’s been pretty obvious throughout the year that certain plays have mins watched.

I would increase the minutes of the Gudas pairing and the Russian one. Bring Fowler's minutes down by taking him off the PK. Perhaps give Fowler more O zone starts and Gudas more D zone face off situations.

In their defense, I do generally hate on fowler(as an hockey player not as a person) and have for a few years.

I did take a lot of hate for suggesting Mintyukov would be nhl ready this year from a lot of people here. All these rookies that wernt close to nhl ready have looked like at minimal nhl players…. If fowler isn’t a long term plan/fit, I see nothing wrong with giving young guys reps on pk/pp and harder mins…. No one suggesting Mintyukov should play 25+ a night but I think you could give some of those guys more mins and hope fowlers game looks better.

There’s also other options to fill in with fowler with that could be fits longer term in the line ups. When fowler sucks it’s everyone else’s fault but his, but when other people play those mins and they don’t do well it’s their own fault lol

Okay, I can get behind the discussion to find ways to reduce Fowlers minutes. I don't think that inherently changes his role, which is what I understood the discussion be be about. He's our best overall defensemen and should be getting the most minutes and is best equipped personally to take the toughest matchups. Does it mean he has to play 25 minutes a night, No I agree it doesn't? You can distribute 3 minutes among the other pairs and I wouldn't be angry and I don't think that changes his role. I'm not opposed to try other players on the PK either. None of that means Fowler still wouldn't be the number 1 D man on this team, no does it in my opinion address the need for a D who can play the right side on the top pairing which I think is the bigger issue.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Okay, I can get behind the discussion to find ways to reduce Fowlers minutes. I don't think that inherently changes his role, which is what I understood the discussion be be about. He's our best overall defensemen and should be getting the most minutes and is best equipped personally to take the toughest matchups. Does it mean he has to play 25 minutes a night, No I agree it doesn't? You can distribute 3 minutes among the other pairs and I wouldn't be angry and I don't think that changes his role. I'm not opposed to try other players on the PK either. None of that means Fowler still wouldn't be the number 1 D man on this team, no does it in my opinion address the need for a D who can play the right side on the top pairing which I think is the bigger issue.

The claim isn’t really that he’s not our #1, he’s just not a #1. And just because he’s playing those mins, doesn’t mean he’s playing them well, just no other realistic options.

Yes he should be the go to guy right now, as most of our dmen are learning/developing…. But he shouldn’t be playing as many mins is he is right now imo. You could shave some time off pk/pp for the sake of development of other guys, and I imagine you could shave time off his 5 v 5 time also.

Agree we need a rhd(pref 2way guy) regardless if fowler stays or goes. Luneau seems more offensive minded, helleson seems like a 6/7 guy ceiling right now.

 

[jaric1862]

Leafs fan here ... how has Lyubushkin looked this year?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Leafs fan here ... how has Lyubushkin looked this year?

He’s the worst dmen on a bad defense…. But he knows his role and does it.

I think he’ll be the type of guy a playoff team brings in as a 7 in case of injuries

 

[Ducks DVM]

Leafs fan here ... how has Lyubushkin looked this year?

Like a bottom pairing D. Blocks a lot of shots, hits things, takes penalties because he’s a bottom pairing D, good teammate, would be a good depth pickup for a 6-7th just in case scenario, but don’t think he is a hidden gem mid-pairing guy in disguise.

 

[Deuce22]

Leafs fan here ... how has Lyubushkin looked this year?

Serviceable at best. Not afraid of contact, knows his role. Press boxer on a good team but won’t kill you for a few games.

 

[cheesymc]

Leafs fan here ... how has Lyubushkin looked this year?

He will probably surprise again like he did with the leafs in the playoffs. We’ll accept Robertson for LaBush with max retention.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

He will probably surprise again like he did with the leafs in the playoffs. We’ll accept Robertson for LaBush with max retention.

Id love to add Robertson.... but Bush at 50% aint getting that.

Bush at 50% prob gets us a 3rd top
Robertson > 3rd

I think maybe if we did something like Bush at 50% + some sort of picks, maybe we could get robertson /shrug.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

Leafs fan here ... how has Lyubushkin looked this year?

Hes alright.

Looked better at the start of the season and was more willing to lay the body. He'd be a solid add for anyone in a playoff spot.

 

[All Mighty]

Strome was interviewed on NHL Network, and Bruce Boudreau was on the panel.

 

[All Mighty]

 

[All Mighty]

It’s probably a good day to keep an eye on the AHL transaction log.

 

[McDonald19]

It’s probably a good day to keep an eye on the AHL transaction log.

I’m guessing Zell and Hagg. No forwards yet.

 

[Gliff]

Leafs fan here ... how has Lyubushkin looked this year?

I found Treliving's HF account

 

[MMC]

 

[McDonald19]

Looks like no IR for Fowler? So, no extra d-man callup yet.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

@Deuce22 wrote:

Fowler can play a lot of minutes, but that doesn’t mean he should. Gudas isn’t a top pairing guy. At some point the org needs to test the young D to see if they can handle more challenging usage.​

It's odd. Gudas gets a pass from your "isn't a top pairing guy" with top pairing minutes, but Fowler get criticized for playing top pairing minutes when everyone is saying Fowler isn't a top pairing guy. Your consistency for criticism is very biased.

Throwing up LaCombe, Minty, and Luneau into the NHL is testing the young D to see if they can handle more challenging usage. It may take years to properly develop young D, particularly the younger ones. All of our first year rookies that started the season in the NHL this year have hit the rookie wall (Carlsson, Minty, and LaCombe) or shutdown for the season (Luneau). There really is no need to add more to their plate unless due to necessity - which is what has happened. Offering up LaCombe to the top pairing isn't the ideal way to develop a rookie D in the NHL.

Zellweger has been and is getting called up from the AHL when injuries occur as of late. That is the typical way of giving exposure to young D in the NHL.

I've said this when the season started, Verbeek has rushed a lot of rookies to shorten the rebuild. Next year, we're all hoping to see improvements in their games b/c they'll be the "veterans" to help teach the rookies to next year's team.

 

[MMC]