Speculation: 2023-24 Roster Thread

[Mr Rogers]

I don't think Fowler works well for a team like the ducks.

His effort isn't always there, he doesn't get engaged in after whistle scrums even if someone is slapping around a rookie, he takes way more shots than he should despite having the accuracy of Stevie wonder, his skating isn't really what it once was and overall I don't see what he brings to the table for Anaheim.

Decent career and at one point he was one the better d-man in the league but I think it's time to find him a new home.

I think this is an important point. it's the little things that Cam does (doesn't do) which are very frustrating at times. the defenders will always have stats to point to yada yada yada, and as somebody who isn't big on Cam, I'll be honest it's tough to argue back on that because you can't deny the numbers.

 

[lwvs84]

If we can exchange Fowler for a RHD that maybe isn't as productive offensively but can play defense (a better Gudas would be awesome) on a similar contract, that would balance the lineup a lot. There should be 4 LHD fighting for spots next year, let Gudas play 2nd pair and maybe Luneau on 3rd or (not ideal, but) a LHD that can play their off side (Vaak-Zellweger 3rd pair?). Then balance out the minutes a bit more, no more 24+ minutes per night.

 

[FiveHoleTickler]

It's wild to me that the player that's polarized this board the most is one Cameron f***ing Fowler.

 

[JAHV]

If we could trade Fowler and pick up Brett Pesce, I'm all about it. Heck, I'm fine picking up Pesce regardless.

 

[Firequacker]

At this point, as a Fowler supporter, I'd like to see him scratched a couple of games. First, a little extra rest (and maybe the mental push) could only help him. Second and maybe more important, it would be nicely clarifying. Either the team is a disaster without him and maybe everyone realizes why he's getting those minutes, or the team isn't a disaster without him and maybe the coaching staff realizes all this driving him into the ground nonsense is unnecessary.
I know it's not gonna happen, but what they're doing right now isn't working for anyone, including (or perhaps especially) Fowler himself.

FWIW, if I'm remembering correctly, the only time post-Lindholm where Fowler hasn't been on the top pairing were the two games at the end of 2021-22 where he stayed home for a baby and we were trotting out a top pairing of Vaakanainen-Drysdale. Nobody died, not even the EBUG.

Fowler's a 2nd pairing OFD forced into a 1st pairing shutdown role. On top of that, he's also forced to play on the PK. Both of these events occurred when Verbeek traded away Lindholm.

Now, could Fowler get respite by not being on the PK unit? Yes, but whoever is in charge of the PK unit is too reliant on Fowler. Once Vaak started playing well, I thought that would have been the perfect time to replace Fowler on the PK unit.

LaCombe-Gudas
Vaak-Lyubushkin

Then Fowler becomes more effective because he's not wearing down even more by not being on the PK unit.

I can't ding Fowler for being put into situation he's not made for. That's not his fault, that's Verbeek's responsibility.

It's not true that trading Lindholm forced Fowler into PK duty. He was the team's top PKer prior to the deadline that season, by a lot.
Everything else you said is spot on though.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

All the people that want Cam here as a placeholder until the young guys are ready are ignoring something. He isn't placeholding well. His pairing is getting abused many nights. He is playing the most minutes on the PP of any D. Why? So the Ducks can win games? He is killing penalties on a bad PK. Why don't we see what Urho or Minty can do there? I don't see it as a positive that he is eating minutes. Those minutes could be going to guys that we are trying to develop. This is a rebuilding year. Fowler and Gibson's cap hits and playing time could could be useful in the rebuild.

Fowler isn't in charge of TOI, that's on the coaches. The only place I'd like to see Fowler's TOI reduced is on the PK. Again, the coaches are in charge of the PK TOI and not Fowler. If Fowler, Vaak, and LaCombe are playing that night along with Lybushkin and Gudas, then Fowler should rest up on the PK.

Rebuild teams are going to have deficiencies in the lineup and are waiting for their youths to develop. Minty has a -10 rating as a middle to bottom pairing d-man. If Minty is getting abused in a sheltered role, then how does one believe Minty will thrive in a top pairing role?

Gudas, our top shutdown D, is a +11 rating because he's playing in a middle pairing role. Whoever plays with him, their plus/minus ratings improve from Vaak to LaCombe. Therein lies the problem, we don't possess enough top shutdown D on the team to maximize all of our OFD's at the NHL level. We have Lyubushkin, but he's a stay-at-home D instead of a top shutdown D. If Minty is to play top pairing, then he'll be doing it without Gudas. Minty isn't ready for that this year or even next year.

Fowler is doing his job as a minute muncher who provides offense on a rebuilding team waiting for the youths to mature. We have baby Ducks learning to be Ducklings this year. They may need another year of seasoning before their wings are fully developed to fly higher.

 

[Deuce22]

Fowler isn't in charge of TOI, that's on the coaches. The only place I'd like to see Fowler's TOI reduced is on the PK. Again, the coaches are in charge of the PK TOI and not Fowler. If Fowler, Vaak, and LaCombe are playing that night along with Lybushkin and Gudas, then Fowler should rest up on the PK.

Rebuild teams are going to have deficiencies in the lineup and are waiting for their youths to develop. Minty has a -10 rating as a middle to bottom pairing d-man. If Minty is getting abused in a sheltered role, then how does one believe Minty will thrive in a top pairing role?

Gudas, our top shutdown D, is a +11 rating because he's playing in a middle pairing role. Whoever plays with him, their plus/minus ratings improve from Vaak to LaCombe. Therein lies the problem, we don't possess enough top shutdown D on the team to maximize all of our OFD's at the NHL level. We have Lyubushkin, but he's a stay-at-home D instead of a top shutdown D. If Minty is to play top pairing, then he'll be doing it without Gudas. Minty isn't ready for that this year or even next year.

Fowler is doing his job as a minute muncher who provides offense on a rebuilding team waiting for the youths to mature. We have baby Ducks learning to be Ducklings this year. They may need another year of seasoning before their wings are fully developed to fly higher.

I never blamed Fowler for his usage. Citing Mintyukov at -10 as struggling when Cam is -29 is funny. Do you think Gudas would be -29 if he took slightly tougher matchups?

 

[DavidBL]

I never blamed Fowler for his usage. Citing Mintyukov at -10 as struggling when Cam is -29 is funny. Do you think Gudas would be -29 if he took slightly tougher matchups?

Are we really using +/- ? Wasn't Gudas just -4 against Toronto? Obviously that's not going to be the results every night or even most nights but if they were for Cam too he'd be what, -200 if you extrapolate that to games played? I'd love to see Gudas with Fowler. I think that would be a respectable pairing. Except the he gets to babysit the rookies with lesser competition.

 

[FiveHoleTickler]

Enough with the judgement. Why don't you folks just take some time and get to know the man!

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Enough with the judgement. Why don't you folks just take some time and get to know the man!

He would buy a Mercedes

 

[Deuce22]

Are we really using +/- ? Wasn't Gudas just -4 against Toronto? Obviously that's not going to be the results every night or even most nights but if they were for Cam too he'd be what, -200 if you extrapolate that to games played? I'd love to see Gudas with Fowler. I think that would be a respectable pairing. Except the he gets to babysit the rookies with lesser competition.

Not really a fan of +|- but when guys on the same team are +11 vs. -29 it’s hard to ignore.

 

[Rybread86]

+/- is one of the most misleading and useless stats that are kept in the game. How many times have we seen a guy get a + or - because they were just exiting or entering the ice and did nothing to lead to the goal for or against? It also stands to reason that a guy who gets a ton of ice time is going to have higher numbers than someone with less ice time, good or bad. And this has nothing to do with the pin cushion of the day, Fowler, I just really hate +/-

 

[ohcomeonref]

+/- is one of the most misleading and useless stats that are kept in the game. How many times have we seen a guy get a + or - because they were just exiting or entering the ice and did nothing to lead to the goal for or against? It also stands to reason that a guy who gets a ton of ice time is going to have higher numbers than someone with less ice time, good or bad. And this has nothing to do with the pin cushion of the day, Fowler, I just really hate +/-

With small numbers on either side of 0 and small sample sizes, +/- sucks. When there's huge disparity's it can be telling.

 

[Rybread86]

With small numbers on either side of 0 and small sample sizes, +/- sucks. When there's huge disparity's it can be telling.

It can be telling, but what story is it telling? Shitty partner? Bad player? Horrible team? Gets the hardest matchups? Is only on the PK? Only on the PP? Its a stat that needs way too much back story and context to have it mean jack

 

[DavidBL]

Not really a fan of +|- but when guys on the same team are +11 vs. -29 it’s hard to ignore.

I don't wholly disagree. It's a flag to look deeper. I'm a pretty firm believer is usage and partner having a significant role. And really, it's not just the partner but the forwards too.

 

[Deuce22]

It can be telling, but what story is it telling? Shitty partner? Bad player? Horrible team? Gets the hardest matchups? Is only on the PK? Only on the PP? Its a stat that needs way too much back story and context to have it mean jack

PK and PP are not a part of +/-. It's only at even strength.

 

[FlyingV09]

Fowler is such a whipping boy for this board.

He is 17th in PPP among defensemen in the league this year. Wanna guess how many above him have less PP TOI/GP? Zero. In fact, he is 42nd in the league in PP TOI/GP. Despite this people think he shouldnt be on the PP lol.

He is playing out of position, in a role above his abilities, in situations his game is not suited for. If he was on a team like Boston where he could play 20 minutes a game, 17 minutes at ES and 3 minutes on the PP, he would be one of the best #3 in the league.

We need to stop acting like his contract is some boat anchor. It is the 34th highest contract in the league among defensemen and it expires at age 34. It is easily market value for a #2/3 in the NHL. If he went UFA right now he would likely get a raise considering what Orlov, Gavrikov, Severson, etc. have recently signed.

Our PP the last 3 seasons has been last or 2nd last with Cam as the QB. You’re going to tell me we couldn’t benefit from having a PP QB who could actually shoot? It benefits everyone if you have a threat up top, not just the QB. It makes it much harder to defend.

It will take time but I think Zellweger, Zegras, Cutter, and Carlsson can make our PP dangerous again. Killorn can be net front. Have Cam run the second unit with McT and whoever else.

Cams contract is fine. I see no issues with it. He’s lived up to it and more. He’s just been over his head, like you said.

 

[Rybread86]

PK and PP are not a part of +/-. It's only at even strength.

Meant more like working minutes, not necessarily the outcome of. Should have been more clear.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I never blamed Fowler for his usage. Citing Mintyukov at -10 as struggling when Cam is -29 is funny. Do you think Gudas would be -29 if he took slightly tougher matchups?

Gudas isn't in a top pairing role nor does he play the same amount of minutes as Fowler. I don't think Gudas would be as effective if he were to play 25 minutes a night. In Gudas' previous stints, he was a 3rd pairing D-man in Florida.

Therein lies the problem. You believe there is no difference between top pairing, middle pairing, and bottom pairing. Using a logical fallacy (strawman) to point into a different direction from Minty to Gudas is hilarious since you proposed Minty going to the top pairing role, not Gudas. Is Gudas a 19-year old rookie like Minty? Nope. You got caught.

And yes, you blamed Fowler for being used as a top pairing d-man. Verbeek put Fowler into that disposition when Lindholm was traded away. Fowler plays better in a second pairing role with a middle pairing shutdown D. Speaking of being put into tough situations, Cronin had Vaak-Gudas play against the Leafs top competition and that pairing ended up the night with a -4 rating each, while Fowler-Lindstrom had a +1 rating. (source)

What would be ideal is to have a 2nd pairing of Fowler-Gudas, but the sticking problem is we have no top pairing D on this club to make that happen. Why? Because we're in the middle of a rebuild and development season.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

PK and PP are not a part of +/-. It's only at even strength.

I'm pretty sure if a PK'er scores a goal, then that affects the +/- rating as well.

 

[Deuce22]

Gudas isn't in a top pairing role nor does he play the same amount of minutes as Fowler. I don't think Gudas would be as effective if he were to play 25 minutes a night. In Gudas' previous stints, he was a 3rd pairing D-man in Florida.

Therein lies the problem. You believe there is no difference between top pairing, middle pairing, and bottom pairing. Using a logical fallacy (strawman) to point into a different direction from Minty to Gudas is hilarious since you proposed Minty going to the top pairing role, not Gudas. Is Gudas a 19-year old rookie like Minty? Nope. You got caught.

And yes, you blamed Fowler for being used as a top pairing d-man. Verbeek put Fowler into that disposition when Lindholm was traded away. Fowler plays better in a second pairing role with a middle pairing shutdown D. Speaking of being put into tough situations, Cronin had Vaak-Gudas play against the Leafs top competition and that pairing ended up the night with a -4 rating each, while Fowler-Lindstrom had a +1 rating. (source)

What would be ideal is to have a 2nd pairing of Fowler-Gudas, but the sticking problem is we have no top pairing D on this club to make that happen. Why? Because we're in the middle of a rebuild and development season.

There is obviously a difference between D pairings and matchups. Stop attributing things to people that they don’t say. I never proposed Mintyukov to be on the top pair, either. Again, you just make stuff up. What I did say is that if Gudas is +11 and Fowler is -29 we have a problem. I don’t think it completely due to their matchups.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

There is obviously a difference between D pairings and matchups. Stop attributing things to people that they don’t say. I never proposed Mintyukov to be on the top pair, either. Again, you just make stuff up. What I did say is that if Gudas is +11 and Fowler is -29 we have a problem. I don’t think it completely due to their matchups.

People just sit on the usage argument and give it a pass.

Idk how you could actually watch fowler this year and not see his game has also been off, on top of the bad / over usage and questionable partners.

It could be much worse statistically too, with more mins comes more opportunities and better opportunities to pick up points.

 

[Deuce22]

People just sit on the usage argument and give it a pass.

Idk how you could actually watch fowler this year and not see his game has also been off, on top of the bad / over usage and questionable partners.

It could be much worse statistically too, with more mins comes more opportunities and better opportunities to pick up points.

Fandom runs deep, I guess. Rather defend the guy they’re a fan of than want the team to improve.

 

[duckpuck]

Enough with the judgement. Why don't you folks just take some time and get to know the man!

His favorite band of the lumineers which seems totally on point for his personality.

 

[Mr Rogers]

The Fowler polarization has been festering for a long, long time. It’s good everyone’s just letting it out.