2023-24 Roster Thread #8: A Cam York State of Mind

[Random Forest]

Dude, I have no idea what you're getting at. Not trying to be an A-hole here.

Are you telling me you wouldn't trade Gauthier ++ for a 25 year old 1C/D? I 100% would have.

And not for nothing, like a month a go they signed a 25 year old middle 6 RW to a 8y/6M dollar contract. Are they ready to contend? Did this deal turn them into a contender or close to it? Are they rebuilding?

Extending your own (young) players is not remotely the same as trading blue chip prospects for established players.

Again, I’m not opposed to that philosophical approach if we were to go all in on it. It just doesn’t jive with the general angst on this forum that they should be rebuilding and accumulating assets right now.

 

[VladDrag]

Extending your own (young) players is not remotely the same as trading blue chip prospects for established players.

I don’t agree fully. I also don’t understand how acquiring a 24 year old 1C isn’t rebuilding but signing a 25 year old winger is? Maybe that’s not what your saying. You don’t have to re-sign RFA’s. You can trade them if you don’t believe the timeline makes sense.

Again, I’m not opposed to that philosophical approach if we were to go all in on it. It just doesn’t jive with the general angst on this forum that they should be rebuilding and accumulating assets right now.

The whole reason people want to accumulate assets is the for the purposes of acquiring elite level pieces. If you trade for a legit 1C/1D, your acquiring exactly what we want. Contrary to your belief, people don’t want to acquire assets just for the purposes of acquiring assets.

 

[Random Forest]

I don’t agree fully. I also don’t understand how acquiring a 24 year old 1C isn’t rebuilding but signing a 25 year old winger is? Maybe that’s not what your saying. You don’t have to re-sign RFA’s. You can trade them if you don’t believe the timeline makes sense.


The whole reason people want to accumulate assets is the for the purposes of acquiring elite level pieces. If you trade for a legit 1C/1D, your acquiring exactly what we want. Contrary to your belief, people don’t want to acquire ass it’s just for the purposes of acquiring assets.

Don’t disagree with you at all on the second point, and I don’t think there’s all that much daylight between us, tbh. But at the same time, we have plenty of people clamoring to trade Konecny and usher in the One True Rebuild. I’d at least like to acknowledge that tension. Now, me personally? I think contenders can be built in different ways. So I wouldn’t have had a problem with the approach you’re suggesting, and I’m okay with you criticizing the trade on that grounds because I know you’re being consistent. But there are plenty of people here who will bemoan the fact that they’re not “actually rebuilding”, and it’s those people who I struggle to understand their perspective when they say we could have done so much better in the Gauthier deal. You’re not the person I take issue with here, and I think you have a perfectly reasonable view of the trade and I find you persuasive when you suggest Gauthier++ for a top talent may have been preferable.

 

[trostol]

#NEVERWASAREBUILD

 

[Beef Invictus]

The only Gauthier option I’ll criticize them for not pursuing further is a top 12 pick in this upcoming draft where there are 5-6 defenders who likely have higher ceilings than Drysdale. Everything else is just bellyaching for the sake of it and assuming there was some fantastical alternative that would have been so much better.

But those picks are insanely hard to acquire, and there’s honestly no guarantee they could have even returned that.


Posts from the alternate universe where they traded Gauthier + 2nd for Byram:

“Trading Gauthier for Byram is asinine. He’s always concussed. Did they learn nothing from Nolan Patrick? And they ADDED a 2nd for him? You can’t tell me there wasn’t another option straight up. At least Drysdale doesn’t have brain issues. Morons.”

You're now at the point where you're just pretending an alternate reality to be mad at things you imagine people might say.

 

[Starat327]

You're now at the point where you're just pretending an alternate reality to be mad at things you imagine people might say.

Yeah, I feel like if your arguments are always framed around "can you imagine" and "this place would say", you're pretty much at a point where you just enjoy hearing yourself.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Why do we continue to push this narrative that the best prospect not in the NHL, according to some, that is NHL ready, hasn't started his ELC, and can maybe fake being a Center would have limited trade options? Every team in the league would have interest in that player.

Even if that is way off, they had his rights for 2.5 more years. The fact they thought his value would never be higher than January 5th of his D+2 and that they had to move him days after the tournament...it just does not strike me as an organization that had a sound process.

I feel like I should have included that I'm not a huge Byram guy either. Like Drysdale, he should have been a positive asset. Just not one I'd be jumping all over myself to get.

With that being said, Byram did have a much better NHL peak that Drysdale. If you think that stretch last year was him taking a jump, I understand having a preference there. I just wasn't as convinced.

I probably would have stayed away from Byram for most of the same reasons I would have stayed away from Drysdale (head injuries are worrisome for a player this young), but Byram has actually had success in the league. Drysdale has not. Byram also was pretty clearly a better prospect - at least to my eye but I know many may disagree.

We know they were only looking for a center or defenseman in return, and you can guess they probably had a strong preference for a RHD. Narrowing your options like that, I can see how they landed on the trade they did.

 

[Magua]

Why do we continue to push this narrative that the best prospect not in the NHL, according to some, that is NHL ready, hasn't started his ELC, and can maybe fake being a Center would have limited trade options?

18-20 teams — with whom Gauthier was willing to sign and the Flyers engaged in discussions — was the report from Seravalli.

Does it matter that we, the hoi polloi, don’t know the exact details of every phone call to have a hunch the Flyers passed up value for fit? And on an artificial rushed timeline? And that doesn’t even get into Anaheim possibly having a preferable package around another defender++. But in Bob Murray we trust.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I probably would have stayed away from Byram for most of the same reasons I would have stayed away from Drysdale (head injuries are worrisome for a player this young), but Byram has actually had success in the league. Drysdale has not. Byram also was pretty clearly a better prospect - at least to my eye but I know many may disagree.

We know they were only looking for a center or defenseman in return, and you can guess they probably had a strong preference for a RHD. Narrowing your options like that, I can see how they landed on the trade they did.

I don't have the prospect knowledge to compare them, which is why I sound soft on it.

Byram at one point looked like he made the leap in the NHL. And then up until the trade looked like it was a mirage this year. But he was on his off side often and all of that. It’s not that I disagree with any of this. I flat out lack the specific knowledge it would take to make that differentiation. The thought process is sound.

Of course the last paragraph is the ultimate point. They couldn't draft another Winger in the 1st round. They couldn't trade for one. Because the process sucks. Nor do I believe for one solitary second Gauthier had a limited market unless he was trying to drive himself someplace specific. Going to Anaheim probably means that wasn't the case.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Don’t disagree with you at all on the second point, and I don’t think there’s all that much daylight between us, tbh. But at the same time, we have plenty of people clamoring to trade Konecny and usher in the One True Rebuild. I’d at least like to acknowledge that tension. Now, me personally? I think contenders can be built in different ways. So I wouldn’t have had a problem with the approach you’re suggesting, and I’m okay with you criticizing the trade on that grounds because I know you’re being consistent. But there are plenty of people here who will bemoan the fact that they’re not “actually rebuilding”, and it’s those people who I struggle to understand their perspective when they say we could have done so much better in the Gauthier deal. You’re not the person I take issue with here, and I think you have a perfectly reasonable view of the trade and I find you persuasive when you suggest Gauthier++ for a top talent may have been preferable.

So your issue is you think they did the best they could in a deal for Gauthier?

Or is it the general bitching about a dog shit franchise that has ruined my generation’s team, all to continue to fill egos of men that have no business being involved in the franchise to the level their are.

Let’s play again sometime.

 

[mr figgles]

Imagine if they traded for equivalent of Fisto instead of Drysdale?

At 21 Fisto was playing 25+ minutes a night, putting up 41 points, and didn’t miss a game. Can we get a do over for someone like that?

 

[Starat327]

At 21 Fisto was playing 25+ minutes a night, putting up 41 points, and didn’t miss a game. Can we get a do over for someone like that?

He was also giving up 41 chances a game. But hey, that's fine.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

View attachment 836388

I'd settle for swapping Erik Johnson for Kim Johnsson

I'd take sandis ozolins at his age now over eric johnson, at least he can still skate

 

[GKJ]

View attachment 836388

I'd settle for swapping Erik Johnson for Kim Johnsson

Now we’re talkin’

 

[BringBackHakstol]

It seems quite obvious the flyers prioritized NHL ready talent in exchange for Gauthier. They simply don't deserve the benefit of the doubt

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Is Drysdale better than Pitkanen?
Is Gauthier better than JVR?

 

[TheKingPin]

We need at least one the back this week. No word at all but Hartnell who said they were all skating.

 

[BiggE]

Not holding my breath on any of the injured D returning this season unless they are still in playoff position by the final week or so.

Drysdale almost certainly has a dislocated shoulder and with his prior injury history to the same shoulder, they won’t clear him for contact until he’s 100% healed. Risto, who hasn’t had surgery or any talk whatsoever about what is actually wrong with him, is likely concussed and they probably won’t rush him back either. And finally, Seeler has a broken bone somewhere in his foot and that’s usually about a 6 week recovery, maybe 4 at best.

On the flip side, running the current D group out every game, coupled with inconsistent to poor goaltending, just might land them a pick in the top 10-12 after all.

 

[flyersnorth]

Nor do I believe for one solitary second Gauthier had a limited market unless he was trying to drive himself someplace specific. Going to Anaheim probably means that wasn't the case.

I seem to recall reading or hearing on a pod that it was in fact the case he (or more accurately his agent) communicated a list of teams he would be willing to sign with.

I'll see if I can find that reference.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

I seem to recall reading or hearing on a pod that it was in fact the case he (or more accurately his agent) communicated a list of teams he would be willing to sign with.

I'll see if I can find that reference.

Not sure if this is along the lines of what you mean, but Frank covers the idea of a "I'm not going there" list discussed in trade talks that knocked 10-12 teams out immediately

 

[DancingPanther]

@Striiker I was listening to the Evolving Hockey podcast today. They were talking about the most value added over Expected for Shots by Defensemen over the last 3 seasons.

1. Makar, not a surprise.
2. Carlson ditto.
3. ????
4. Josi

Any guesses on who might have been #3?

Seeler?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Not sure if this is along the lines of what you mean, but Frank covers the idea of a "I'm not going there" list discussed in trade talks that knocked 10-12 teams out immediately

Am I missing something here? That's Colby talking about a list, not Frank. I'm positive he has Flyers sources, but coming from a guy once employed by the time adds some grain size to my personal salt. I'm going to guess that he had a list of teams like Winnipeg he wouldn't sign with rather than a handful of teams where he would accept a trade. Because he said yes to Anaheim. This wasn't a guy like Adam Fox who killed his own trade market by telling everyone he was signing with the Rangers, which is the point of the discussion.

Anyway, let's get to the most important part of this clip. Colby living in Villanova is the least surprising thing I've ever heard. Not a city school in any way. No arguments.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

I seem to recall reading or hearing on a pod that it was in fact the case he (or more accurately his agent) communicated a list of teams he would be willing to sign with.

I'll see if I can find that reference.

Which absolutely impacts the return as well

I didn’t love the trade but I don’t know what they passed up if they truly did quietly shop him

But them not deserving the benefit of the doubt is fair tbh

 

[DancingPanther]

Let's not forget Gauthier wouldn't sign only because the Flyers were victims of their own hubris once again. "Value" be damned. Bo Byram be damned. If the Flyers had a sense of direction, they would have had Cutter and many other young players on the team with little pressure during the first years of a true rebuild. Instead, they plastered a known asshole talent squasher and rookie hater in Tortorella as the face of the franchise and doubled down on the dinosaur way of life with Garnet Hathaway, Nick D, and Noah Cates. They wrote the writing on the wall.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Am I missing something here? That's Colby talking about a list, not Frank. I'm positive he has Flyers sources, but coming from a guy once employed by the time adds some grain size to my personal salt. I'm going to guess that he had a list of teams like Winnipeg he wouldn't sign with rather than a handful of teams where he would accept a trade. Because he said yes to Anaheim. This wasn't a guy like Adam Fox who killed his own trade market by telling everyone he was signing with the Rangers, which is the point of the discussion.

Anyway, let's get to the most important part of this clip. Colby living in Villanova is the least surprising thing I've ever heard. Not a city school in any way. No arguments.

Frank mentioned a list, too. I don't know if he meant a literal list, but he said there were 18-20 teams that were sort of on the list of teams Cutter would be willing to sign with. The others didn't even engage since they were sure he wouldn't go there.

But again, I don't know if that's what the OP was referring to. That's just one example I've seen where Frank mentioned there being some limitations Cutter was imposing by not realistically signing to X amount of teams.