2023-24 Roster Thread #8: A Cam York State of Mind

[FlyerNutter]

The only Gauthier option I’ll criticize them for not pursuing further is a top 12 pick in this upcoming draft where there are 5-6 defenders who likely have higher ceilings than Drysdale. Everything else is just bellyaching for the sake of it and assuming there was some fantastical alternative that would have been so much better.


Posts from the alternate universe where they traded Gauthier + 2nd for Byram:

“Trading Gauthier for Byram is asinine. He’s always concussed. Did they learn nothing from Nolan Patrick? And they ADDED a 2nd for him? You can’t tell me there wasn’t another option straight up. Morons.”

I’d love that alternate universe.

Byram has shown good things in terms of being able to carry a load when Makar has been out. Has shown an upward trend in terms of health compared to Drysdale, of course with noted concussion issues early on.

You’re arguing an interesting point bc I’ve been a Byram fan for a while. Buffalo made a nice move there.

Who pushed the Flyers Drysdale trade in terms of advisors? They have been quite open about it.

 

[Random Forest]

How do you know those are/where the only other options?

I don’t but, the universe of potential trades here is extremely small. Small enough to brainstorm and list out. They weren’t going to trade Gauthier for a 23+ year old established player. And they weren’t going to trade him for a package of quantity. There aren’t that many names of unestablished young players who were generally close to CG’s value. I’ve asked this dozens of times with no real response: what alternative should they have pursued? We know Reinbacher and Byram were on that list. I’d have loved Brandt Clarke, but LA’s not giving him up. Some people have mentioned Zellweger, so sure, maybe that could have been an option. A forward wouldn’t have been likely because no team has incentive to give up their own player of similar value at the same position. Who else can you think of that another team would have considered that would have been so much better? Should they have traded for an established player? If so, who? Zegras? All these alternatives are equally questionable. I’m not in love with Drysdale, but I just don’t see where anyone can get off saying that they could have obviously done better.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

If Byram was on the table, and they didn’t add to make that happen it was foolish.

Colorado could have flipped Cutter to another team if they wanted immediate help to fill 2C, or the Flyers could have added in with Cutter (Walker, etc)

Byram has had injuries as well no doubt, but to trade a 5OA for a guy that can’t stay healthy as frequently as Drysdale was stupid.

They got killed on that trade.

Drysdale had played 35 games in the last 3 seasons, with no sign of the injuries settling down. You can’t move a 5OA for a player like that.

Moronic trade, and they deserved to be torched for it. It’s the biggest blunder by Briere so far. They basically willingly drafted another Patrick knowing full well Drysdale’s injury history.

just another on the pile of busted toys

is there another Org. that busts on high picks as much as Philly..

cuz i doubt it

 

[TheKingPin]

I think we have to wait on Drysdale. Short of retearing his labrum, this would be up there as maybe worst case. But he looks to have avoided it. I think he dislocated his shoulder. Nothing is keeping your arm connected to your shoulder other than muscles. He will have this off-season to work on that. He can be coached to focus his skills and be a top pair D.

If he does come back this year I think we are still ok for his long run.

For this year we at least need seeler back asap. Even Risto would be better at this point. Hopefully we get them back soon

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I feel like I should have included that I'm not a huge Byram guy either. Like Drysdale, he should have been a positive asset. Just not one I'd be jumping all over myself to get.

With that being said, Byram did have a much better NHL peak that Drysdale. If you think that stretch last year was him taking a jump, I understand having a preference there. I just wasn't as convinced.

 

[FlyerNutter]

No other options. It’s the best we could do. The standards for this org are so low considering what their egos are.

 

[Random Forest]

No other options. It’s the best we could do.

List them.

I’ve already said that I would have likely preferred trading him for a 2024 top 12 pick. I would have definitely preferred a Brandt Clarke or a Simon Edvinsson or a David Jiricek, but those don’t seem like options that would have been on the table from those teams. I’m pretty indifferent on adding to get Byram. I don’t really care that much on Reinbacher (which was rejected).

You? You’re just lobbing shots and saying anything would have been better if they just weren’t so stupid.

If you want to bitch, go ahead and bitch, but at least be remotely constructive with it.

 

[renberg]

We've seen Drysdale and Byram play in the show so we know what they can do which is decent if not better than that. No one is saying that they're the next Makar but they're good players. Gauthier hasn't played at this level so let's hold back on how good he will be. My view is that he'll be hard pressed to be at the TK, Tippett or Farabee level and may not match Foerster, who is becoming quite a nice two way player. He could just as easily end up being a PLD. Time will tell.

 

[VladDrag]

I don’t but, the universe of potential trades here is extremely small. Small enough to brainstorm and list out. They weren’t going to trade Gauthier for a 23+ year old established player. And they weren’t going to trade him for a package of quantity. There aren’t that many names of unestablished young players who were generally close to CG’s value. I’ve asked this dozens of times with no real response: what alternative should they have pursued? We know Reinbacher and Byram were on that list. Who else can you think of that another team would have considered?

But why wouldn’t they trade him for an established player? Why does it have to be a 1 for 1? I think you’re limiting yourself by thinking that there are only a few trades you can make using Gauthier. In Jan 2022, who would have conceived of the M. Tkachuk trade?

Going back to your original point about criticizing the trade…I think you know I am not super hard on this trade. I recognize that it was a very atypical (5OA refusing to sign), and it was a bad head dealt to the flyers. But I do think they put stipulations on themselves that automatically limited the return value.

We do know, from Briere’s/Jonesy’s mouth, they felt pressure to get the trade done after the WJC because they felt his value would drop of it got out. We know they prioritized defense and centers. We know they prioritized a right handed defenseman over left, Byram, Drysdale, Reinbacher are all right handed defense. These were stipulations that they put on themselves while making the trade.

 

[Random Forest]

But why wouldn’t they trade him for an established player? Why does it have to be a 1 for 1? I think you’re limiting yourself by thinking that there are only a few trades you can make using Gauthier. In Jan 2022, who would have conceived of the M. Tkachuk trade?

Going back to your original point about criticizing the trade…I think you know I am not super hard on this trade. I recognize that it was a very atypical (5OA refusing to sign), and it was a bad head dealt to the flyers. But I do think they put stipulations on themselves that automatically limited the return value.

We do know, from Briere’s/Jonesy’s mouth, they felt pressure to get the trade done after the WJC because they felt his value would drop of it got out. We know they prioritized defense and centers. We know they prioritized a right handed defenseman over left, Byram, Drysdale, Reinbacher are all right handed defense. These were stipulations that they put on themselves while making the trade.

Again, what are options you’re thinking here that they stipulated themselves out of?

Perhaps they could have traded for an established player. Maybe Gauthier+++ for an established star was the right move. But I believe (and I thought everyone else did too) that this team is not “one piece away”, so I tend to think that’s not optimizing our roster construction. Surprised that maybe others would feel differently. I suppose it depends on the player, but that again leads me to the question: who?!

Personally, I can quite easily imagine the universe where we trade CG++ for an established star and everyone here rolls their eyes because management would have been “declaring the rebuild over”.

 

[FlyerNutter]

List them.

I’ve already said that I would have likely preferred trading him for a 2024 top 12 pick. I would have definitely preferred a Brandt Clarke or a Simond Edvinsson, but those don’t seem like options that would have been on the table. I’m pretty indifferent on adding to get Byram. I don’t really care that much on Reinbacher (which was rejected).

You? You’re just lobbing shots and saying anything would have been better if they just weren’t so stupid.

If you’d like a name for the hell of it, Jiricek is one.

You’re not proving the point you think you are - it’s a hard list to give when you’ve cornered yourself as an organization into a 1:1 deal for a young NHL ready defensemen, that one of your advisors is slobbering over.

Nobody forced them to target Drysdale, but you’re kidding yourself if you think they weren’t dead set on a young NHL ready defenseman. R handed too? They couldn’t resist.

Gauthier did not need to be moved for an immediate impact return. Of course, losing him for something a little less “ready” than Drysdale is a problem. Might have to actually (gasp) rebuild.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

None of this is wrong, but it is incomplete in ways that matter. Which picks after 5 last year were available for him? Which picks this year would have been? And most importantly, who would have been selected at those slots? Let’s say the draft goes as it did 1-7. If Zach Benson is the next guy on your board, every pick from 8-13 is worth exactly Zach Benson, not the average 8th or 11th overall. This is where the individual player matters most.

Drysdale has NHL skills. That removes a lot of risk. But he is overwhelmingly likely to not have meaningful high end outcomes at this point. In essence, the player is secondary to why the org thought this was the best they could do. That’s the concerning bit. It feels like they’re getting the big stuff wrong in ways that won’t manifest for years. It has a familiar ring to it.

After Michkov fell to us so many here were clamoring for them to make a move to snag Benson, and we didn't even know that this could have been an option. Only time will tell what Drysdale becomes, but I don't know how anyone can confidently say he was probably the best option. Especially when they still had plenty of time to trade Cutter. It feels more like filling roles again.

 

[FlyerNutter]

The 3 names we have heard are Byram. Reinbacher. Drysdale.

I’m sure they were open to the best possible return without any strict preconceptions of who that player had to be.

Right.

Who put Drysdale into the minds of the management group? Who was the advisor they chose to employ?

 

[Random Forest]

If you’d like a name for the hell of it, Jiricek is one.

You’re not proving the point you think you are - it’s a hard list to give when you’ve cornered yourself as an organization into a 1:1 deal for a young NHL ready defensemen, that one of your advisors is slobbering over.

Nobody forced them to target Drysdale, but you’re kidding yourself if you think they weren’t dead set on a young NHL ready defenseman. R handed too? They couldn’t resist.

Gauthier did not need to be moved for an immediate impact return. Of course, losing him for something a little less “ready” than Drysdale is a problem. Might have to actually (gasp) rebuild.

So again, you’re bitching over a return you don’t even know was on the table.

I’m honestly not a fan of the deal at all. I’m fairly indifferent given the circumstances. But the silly thing is with you confidently proclaiming that there was some other option that they ignored because they were infatuated with Drysdale.

I would have preferred a top 2024 pick over Drysdale, which I’ve said repeatedly. But the reality is that GMs are territorial with those assets (especially given lottery considerations), and I can’t get infuriated over Briere not acquiring something that I don’t even know was ever on the table to begin with.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Imagine if they traded for equivalent of Fisto instead of Drysdale?

 

[FlyerNutter]

So again, you’re bitching over a return you don’t even know was on the table.

I’m honestly not a fan of the deal at all. I’m fairly indifferent given the circumstances. But the silly thing is with you confidently proclaiming that there was some other option that they ignored because they were infatuated with Drysdale.

I would have preferred a top 2024 pick over Drysdale, which I’ve said repeatedly. But the reality is that GMs are territorial with those assets, and I can’t get infuriated over Briere not acquiring something that I don’t even know was ever on the table to begin with.

Gauthier was drafted in 2022.

They were not able to find a better overall deal than 1:1 for Drysdale.

Ok then.

You haven’t moved into answering any of my questions, why is that?

 

[Random Forest]

Gauthier was drafted in 2022.

They were not able to find a better overall deal than 1:1 for Drysdale.

Ok then.

You haven’t moved into answering any of my questions, why is that?

You haven’t asked any questions. You’ve just bitched and moaned about them failing to acquire someone better than Drysdale. When pressed, you’ve refused to answer who. Finally, you give me one name (Jiricek) where there has been absolutely no indication that he’s a player CBJ has any interest in moving. Now you say I’m not answering your questions? Laughable.

 

[FlyerNutter]

You haven’t asked any questions. You’ve just bitched and moaned about them failing to acquire someone better than Drysdale. When pressed, you’ve refused to answer who. Finally, you give me one name (Jiricek) where there has been absolutely no indication that he’s a player CBJ has any interest in moving. Now you say I’m not answering your questions? Laughable.

- who was the advisor that the team has publicly given credit to that helped them target Drysdale?
- do you believe they were open to a package with a less “immediate” return than a player of Drysdale’s position?

You’ve tried, and failed to push me into a corner - at best illustrating that’s exactly what the team did to itself with what they needed the returning asset for Gauthier to be.

Funny how that’s worked out.

 

[Random Forest]

- who was the advisor that the team has publicly given credit to that helped them target Drysdale?
- do you believe they were open to a package with a less “immediate” return than a player of Drysdale’s position?

You’ve tried, and failed to push me into a corner - at best illustrating that’s exactly what the team did to itself with what they needed the returning asset for Gauthier to be.

Funny how that’s worked out.

1) What in the world does your first question have to do with anything?

2) Considering that they DID try to trade Gauthier for Reinbacher, the answer is obviously yes.

You are failing here, man.

 

[FlyerNutter]

1) What in the world does your first question have to do with anything?

2) Considering that they DID try to trade Gauthier for Reinbacher, the answer is obviously yes.

You are failing here, man.

Thank you, for partially playing - although I understand why you wouldn’t want to mention Murray.

Do you get a perception with the names mentioned, that the team was open to options outside of a (hopeful) high end young defenseman?

Or was the return limited from the outset because of a certain archetype they wanted in return?

 

[TheKingPin]

I will say that if you were to trade Drysdale this summer, his value has only gone down.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

None of this is wrong, but it is incomplete in ways that matter. Which picks after 5 last year were available for him? Which picks this year would have been? And most importantly, who would have been selected at those slots? Let’s say the draft goes as it did 1-7. If Zach Benson is the next guy on your board, every pick from 8-13 is worth exactly Zach Benson, not the average 8th or 11th overall. This is where the individual player matters most.

Drysdale has NHL skills. That removes a lot of risk. But he is overwhelmingly likely to not have meaningful high end outcomes at this point. In essence, the player is secondary to why the org thought this was the best they could do. That’s the concerning bit. It feels like they’re getting the big stuff wrong in ways that won’t manifest for years. It has a familiar ring to it.

I have no idea what was offered besides the actual trade and the other two. So I agree, I have no idea what they didn’t take, I just know the two deals they were rejected on

I’m on record saying they should have called his bluff and forced him to come to camp. NIL money ain’t college football or basketball level in NCAA hockey

 

[VladDrag]

Again, what are options you’re thinking here that they stipulated themselves out of?

Wingers and left handed defenseman, of which there are many.

Having an answer to the question posted is not a prerequisite in order to evaluate the process of this trade. Not providing you a name doesn't negate the fact that the Flyers own process put stipulations on what they would accept as a return for Gauthier. IMO it's okay to criticize process.

Perhaps they could have traded for an established player. Maybe Gauthier+++ for an established star was the right move. But I believe (and I thought everyone else did too) that this team is not “one piece away”, so I tend to think that’s not optimizing our roster construction. Surprised that maybe others would feel differently. I suppose it depends on the player, but that again leads me to the question: who?!

Personally, I can quite easily imagine the universe where we trade CG++ for an established star and everyone here rolls their eyes because management would have been “declaring the rebuild over”.

I am not really following this logic about optimizing roster construction. How is obtaining elite talent not optimizing roster construction? If they made a trade to bring in a legit 1C or 1D for Gauthier +, I would be elated. I said this before Gauthier was even traded.

 

[Random Forest]

Wingers and left handed defenseman, of which there are many.

Having an answer to the question posted is not a prerequisite in order to evaluate the process of this trade. Not providing you a name doesn't negate the fact that the Flyers own process put stipulations on what they would accept as a return for Gauthier. IMO it's okay to criticize process.




I am not really following this logic about optimizing roster construction. How is obtaining elite talent not optimizing roster construction? If they made a trade to bring in a legit 1C or 1D for Gauthier +, I would be elated. I said this before Gauthier was even traded.

So are we supposed to be rebuilding or not? If you acquire a 24+ y/o established center or defender in exchange for your second best prospect, you’re not rebuilding. If you make rhat deal, you better be ready to contend. Is that the deal that would have turned this team into a contender or close to it? I doubt it. I’m not strictly opposed to that approach if we actually went all in on it, but I’m just surprised that that’s the angle to criticize Briere for here.

For all the shit that gets thrown at Briere for not rebuilding, not trading Gauthier in that type of deal is probably the clearest expression of his intentions thus far.

Just on the same page, we have criticism of Briere for not pursuing an established player and criticism of Briere for pursuing Drysdale because he was looking for someone to make an immediate impact. I know these are different people with different opinions, but it kinda says a lot about the manic perception of what this team should be doing.

 

[VladDrag]

So are we supposed to be rebuilding or not? If you acquire a 24+ y/o established center or defender, you’re not rebuilding. If you make rhat deal, you better be ready to contend. Is that the deal that would have turned this team into a contender or close to it? I doubt it.

For all the shit that gets thrown at Briere for not rebuilding, not trading Gauthier in that type of deal is probably the clearest expression of his intentions thus far.

Dude, I have no idea what you're getting at. Not trying to be an A-hole here.

Are you telling me you wouldn't trade Gauthier ++ for a 25 year old 1C/D? I 100% would have.

And not for nothing, like a month a go they signed a 25 year old middle 6 RW to a 8y/6M dollar contract. Are they ready to contend? Did this deal turn them into a contender or close to it? Are they rebuilding?