2023-24 Roster Thread #6: A Hall of Famer, a doctor, a policeman and a moose walk into a bar with a Bundy...

[flyersnorth]

So I went back & listened because I didn’t want to go completely off the top of my head well after the fact of when I initially listened to it.

He starts it out by saying people on the internet are speculating that Briere isn’t in step with what’s going on with this situation & that he needs to step in. He then goes on to say that isn’t the case. He says Briere is fully on board with what Tortorella is doing & he doesn’t think Briere is a big fan of Frost either.

It just doesn’t really make sense though because Briere took baths on the other guys this summer that Tortorella/they didn’t want here. Why is Frost the one exception? How can realistically sit there asking for a noteworthy return for him when he’s been scratched almost more games than he’s played. Do you really want this situation lingering around & potentially getting other players to find sympathy with Frost in turning against Tortorella (which they mentioned as potential possibility)?

It was a pretty good discussion overall.

I thought the section about Torts and the things he can teach players that can serve them during their careers was pretty spot on. I've had teachers and coaches that served an important purpose that I didn't recognize until later in life. So in that sense, ASF was saying maybe about half the guys here now will be around when Torts is gone and the team is competitive, and hopefully there will be some things they learned under Torts that serve them for the next steps in their development.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

It was a pretty good discussion overall.

I thought the section about Torts and the things he can teach players that can serve them during their careers was pretty spot on. I've had teachers and coaches that served an important purpose that I didn't recognize until later in life. So in that sense, ASF was saying maybe about half the guys here now will be around when Torts is gone and the team is competitive, and hopefully there will be some things they learned under Torts that serve them for the next steps in their development.

I did laugh though when ASF was framing it as if you ask a lot of former players they’d said they were better off for it & Therien chimed in essentially saying he wouldn’t go that far, more like some players would tell you that.

 

[VladDrag]

Because 46-point season or not, the Flyers didn’t get any good offers for Frost in the summer.

And unlike Hayes & TDA, Frost wasn’t a negative influence they felt they had no choice but to shed.

So in this scenario where the Flyers attempted to move frost out, but couldn't find the offer they wanted....Why are they not playing him now to increase his perceived value league wide? The scenario doesn't make sense holistically to me.

They wanted to move him, but didn't because the returning value was too low. This implies they believe Frost has some real value, because as pointed out, Hayes and TDA trades were given away, whereas they think they can get more for Frost.

But, the only way to get more value from Frost is for Frost to actually prove his worth. He can't do that if he's not playing. Not only does benching Frost not allow him to prove his worth, it also shows the rest of the league just exactly how the Flyers view him. It is not likely to assume that a team would increase their offer if Frost doesn't prove the Flyers perceived value, and The Flyers actions actually show their real perceived value of Frost.

So, the only way I can accept this scenario is a reality (that the Flyers as an organization wanted/still want to move Frost but the offers are not enough) is that they are an incompetent group.

 

[Curufinwe]

Meltzer's view on Frost, as of this morning

I think my position on Frost has been made crystal clear. I vehemently disagree with the Flyers about their handling of him. Long-term, I think it's clear that the coach and the POHO do not value the player. Such is how it goes sometimes in hockey. Not my decision to make.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

So in this scenario where the Flyers attempted to move frost out, but couldn't find the offer they wanted....Why are they not playing him now to increase his perceived value league wide? The scenario doesn't make sense holistically to me.

They wanted to move him, but didn't because the returning value was too low. This implies they believe Frost has some real value, because as pointed out, Hayes and TDA trades were given away, whereas they think they can get more for Frost.

But, the only way to get more value from Frost is for Frost to actually prove his worth. He can't do that if he's not playing. Not only does benching Frost not allow him to prove his worth, it also shows the rest of the league just exactly how the Flyers view him. It is not likely to assume that a team would increase their offer if Frost doesn't prove the Flyers perceived value, and The Flyers actions actually show their real perceived value of Frost.

So, the only way I can accept this scenario is a reality (that the Flyers as an organization wanted/still want to move Frost but the offers are not enough) is that they are an incompetent group.

 

[Young Sandwich]

So in this scenario where the Flyers attempted to move frost out, but couldn't find the offer they wanted....Why are they not playing him now to increase his perceived value league wide? The scenario doesn't make sense holistically to me.

They wanted to move him, but didn't because the returning value was too low. This implies they believe Frost has some real value, because as pointed out, Hayes and TDA trades were given away, whereas they think they can get more for Frost.

But, the only way to get more value from Frost is for Frost to actually prove his worth. He can't do that if he's not playing. Not only does benching Frost not allow him to prove his worth, it also shows the rest of the league just exactly how the Flyers view him. It is not likely to assume that a team would increase their offer if Frost doesn't prove the Flyers perceived value, and The Flyers actions actually show their real perceived value of Frost.

So, the only way I can accept this scenario is a reality (that the Flyers as an organization wanted/still want to move Frost but the offers are not enough) is that they are an incompetent group.

It's pure insanity that you had to take the time to type this out when it should be common knowledge.

 

[VladDrag]

Meltzer's view on Frost, as of this morning

I don't hold the personal opinion that Jonsey clearly doesn't value Frost as a player. Yes, early in the year, he did scrutinize Frost's play on the broadcasts frequently. But as the year went on, he did also commend Frost for getting better as the year went on, and he did single Frost out positively at times.

What I do think, however, is that he'll side more with Torts than with Danny. Now, that's not really rooted in anything other than my gut feeling.

 

[renberg]

Tortorella is becoming an unhinged purveyor of chaos. However he is no dummy and has been in enough organizations to understand their power structures. He’ll try to circumvent Briere in order to get his way if he needs to. Go to Hilferty and Jones to get it done. It’s why Kekalainen had nothing to do with Torts after he made the decision to let him go in Columbus.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Why does Jones’ opinion matter? He’s just here to communicate with other teams or whatever the bullshit line was.

 

[Curufinwe]

So in this scenario where the Flyers attempted to move frost out, but couldn't find the offer they wanted....Why are they not playing him now to increase his perceived value league wide? The scenario doesn't make sense holistically to me.

They wanted to move him, but didn't because the returning value was too low. This implies they believe Frost has some real value, because as pointed out, Hayes and TDA trades were given away, whereas they think they can get more for Frost.

But, the only way to get more value from Frost is for Frost to actually prove his worth. He can't do that if he's not playing. Not only does benching Frost not allow him to prove his worth, it also shows the rest of the league just exactly how the Flyers view him. It is not likely to assume that a team would increase their offer if Frost doesn't prove the Flyers perceived value, and The Flyers actions actually show their real perceived value of Frost.

So, the only way I can accept this scenario is a reality (that the Flyers as an organization wanted/still want to move Frost but the offers are not enough) is that they are an incompetent group.

I'm starting to think the management group who wanted to move Sanheim for 32 year old Torey Krug aren't too bright.

Krug has 1 point in 11 games played as the #4 in St Louis. The Flyers wanted him to partner York for four years.

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't hold the personal opinion that Jonsey clearly doesn't value Frost as a player. Yes, early in the year, he did scrutinize Frost's play on the broadcasts frequently. But as the year went on, he did also commend Frost for getting better as the year went on, and he did single Frost out positively at times.

I don't have any inside info, but if Meltzer is prepared to say it that bluntly, I expect that it's based on stuff that he's heard Jones say that was not on broadcasts.

 

[VladDrag]

I don't have any inside info, but if Meltzer is prepared to say it that bluntly, I expect that it's based on stuff that he's heard Jones say that was not on broadcasts.

This is a good point. Say what you want about Bill, but he doesn't just throw shit like this at the wall. He does have journalistic integrity imo. Now, do I always agree with what he says....that's a different story.

 

[renberg]

Briere and Frost seemed to have a connection last season. DB went to bat for Frost with Tortorella to get him ice time. Their playing styles were somewhat similar hence Frost wearing #48. Now perhaps that relationship was shattered during the contract negotiations but I doubt it. Things happen during that process but usually they are left at the table when all is said and done. McCrimmon-Clarke is an anomaly.
This feud is getting to be spongey ground. I don't believe that it's lost on the other young players either. There but for the grace of God goes one of them.

 

[BernieParent]

Why does Jones’ opinion matter? He’s just here to communicate with other teams or whatever the bullshit line was.

Oh, how I wish I could consider this as a rhetorical question.

 

[flyersnorth]

I did laugh though when ASF was framing it as if you ask a lot of former players they’d said they were better off for it & Therien chimed in essentially saying he wouldn’t go that far, more like some players would tell you that.

Haha yeah... and then Bundy added that Murray scratched him for a bunch of games and that really stuck with him and helped him get on track

 

[chadateit]

Does anyone else get the feeling that the "organizational okayness" with the Frost situation is related to Cutter? As in "hey guys, our solution at center is coming in Gauthier towards the end of the season. Frost doesn't fit." Forgetting about the fact that it'd be an awful way to manage assets, and forgetting about the fact that Gauthier's skill set doesn't make much sense as an NHL center, especially given the mix of shoot-first wingers we have in Philly.

This keeps coming into my mind, and all I can think is "seems so on brand for this organization."

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Does anyone else get the feeling that the "organizational okayness" with the Frost situation is related to Cutter? As in "hey guys, our solution at center is coming in Gauthier towards the end of the season. Frost doesn't fit." Forgetting about the fact that it'd be an awful way to manage assets, and forgetting about the fact that Gauthier's skill set doesn't make much sense as an NHL center, especially given the mix of shoot-first wingers we have in Philly.

This keeps coming into my mind, and all I can think is "seems so on brand for this organization."

But even yesterday Therien was talking about how everybody knows Frost is an everyday NHL player & we’re beyond the point of trying to teach something here. At this point it’s personal that he’s not playing & Tortorella is running the risk of guys rallying against Tortorella for his treatment of Frost just as he almost did last year when he was scratching guys in their hometowns.

Even a guy like Therien who generally trends pro-authority & old school was perplexed with what the hell they’re doing here on all fronts. He essentially said there’s two options you trade him & accept the consequences that you created a devalued asset or you play him to let him build value. What they’re currently doing isn’t a viable path.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

So in this scenario where the Flyers attempted to move frost out, but couldn't find the offer they wanted....Why are they not playing him now to increase his perceived value league wide? The scenario doesn't make sense holistically to me.

They wanted to move him, but didn't because the returning value was too low. This implies they believe Frost has some real value, because as pointed out, Hayes and TDA trades were given away, whereas they think they can get more for Frost.

But, the only way to get more value from Frost is for Frost to actually prove his worth. He can't do that if he's not playing. Not only does benching Frost not allow him to prove his worth, it also shows the rest of the league just exactly how the Flyers view him. It is not likely to assume that a team would increase their offer if Frost doesn't prove the Flyers perceived value, and The Flyers actions actually show their real perceived value of Frost.

So, the only way I can accept this scenario is a reality (that the Flyers as an organization wanted/still want to move Frost but the offers are not enough) is that they are an incompetent group.

Because desperately trying to increase Morgan Frost’s trade value, when they already were unable to get a sufficient offer for him in the summer following a 46-point season, is not their priority over icing the team they think gives them the best chance to win on a given night.

 

[Curufinwe]

This is why Torts hasn't made Couturier or Laughton captain. He doesn't want any player with enough authority to call him out on his BS.

And they only have one Alternate....

2023-2024	NHL		Scott Laughton
2022-2023	NHL		Kevin Hayes Scott Laughton Ivan Provorov Sean Couturier
2021-2022	NHL	Claude Giroux	Sean Couturier Kevin Hayes Ivan Provorov
2020-2021	NHL	Claude Giroux	Sean Couturier Kevin Hayes Ivan Provorov
2019-2020	NHL	Claude Giroux	Jakub Voracek Sean Couturier Kevin Hayes

 

[Redpath]

Because desperately trying to increase Morgan Frost’s trade value, when they already were unable to get a sufficient offer for him in the summer following a 46-point season, is not their priority over icing the team they think gives them the best chance to win on a given night.

Yes, we know that it is not their priority and that they think sitting Frost for Deslauriers gives them a better chance to win on a given night.

It is stupid that they are more focused on winning any given night instead of developing one of the franchise's only young centers. It is stupid they think Deslauriers gives them a better chance to win than Frost.

 

[BernieParent]

Yes, we know that it is not their priority and that they think sitting Frost for Deslauriers gives them a better chance to win on a given night.

It is stupid that they are more focused on winning any given night instead of developing one of the franchise's only young centers. It is stupid they think Deslauriers gives them a better chance to win than Frost.

The other FO-attractive facet of Deslauriers is that he is a throw-back to the Flyers brand. I have no doubt that they subscribe to the "set the tone" aspect of Deslauriers' fights with his fourth-line offensive skills will always win out over the offense-first player with baggage (imposed by the same FO and their sycophants).

 

[VladDrag]

Because desperately trying to increase Morgan Frost’s trade value, when they already were unable to get a sufficient offer for him in the summer following a 46-point season, is not their priority over icing the team they think gives them the best chance to win on a given night.

If this is the case, it speaks to further incompetence.

Do you see any issue with the way Frost has been handled to date?

 

[FlyerNutter]

The other FO-attractive facet of Deslauriers is that he is a throw-back to the Flyers brand. I have no doubt that they subscribe to the "set the tone" aspect of Deslauriers' fights with his fourth-line offensive skills will always win out over the offense-first player with baggage (imposed by the same FO and their sycophants).

Bang on.

So much of what we see since this new era, really is just a doubling down on old school Flyer culture.

From the people they hired this summer, how they approach the game, how they approach the “rebuild”, etc etc

This is not a team for fans of modern hockey or anyone that isn’t obsessed with trailer park wrestling. It’s shitty honestly, because Comcast is now on president #2 clearly showing they haven’t got a clue in mind what the real issues are here.

They just don’t want to risk losing their golden goose, in a predictable part of the fanbase. It’s very… I dunno. Just sad.

I like to think every failed president/GM tandem brings us one step closer, and this team isn’t going anywhere with Danny/Jones/Torts.

 

[BillDineen]

How are they going to trade enough forwards by the deadline so that Gauthier, (Frost), Lycksell, Tuomaala, and Desnoyers get some games?

Laughton? Torts loves him too much
Atkinson? Retained or a cap dumb coming back, but Torts may love him too much as well
Poehling?

Phoehling and Atkinson is only enough that Frost and Gauthier can enter.

Just too many forwards during a rebuild.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Bang on.

So much of what we see since this new era, really is just a doubling down on old school Flyer culture.

From the people they hired this summer, how they approach the game, how they approach the “rebuild”, etc etc

This is not a team for fans of modern hockey or anyone that isn’t obsessed with trailer park wrestling. It’s shitty honestly, because Comcast is now on president #2 clearly showing they haven’t got a clue in mind what the real issues are here.

They just don’t want to risk losing their golden goose, in a predictable part of the fanbase. It’s very… I dunno. Just sad.

I like to think every failed president/GM tandem brings us one step closer, and this team isn’t going anywhere with Danny/Jones/Torts.

I don't disagree that Comcast, or whoever, wants to hang on to that segment of the fanbase. Thing is, even the old school, die hard types understand wins and losses. They may get riled up over the summer with the messaging, signing gritty veterans, and what have you, but building a team that way is a losing venture in today's game. They might not understand why, hell, they may think we need even more of that, but as the losses continue the cheers will turn to boos eventually. This org would be wise to try to attract a new generation of fans, but it honestly seems like they just don't care. Or just don't get it.