2023-24 Roster Thread 4: September is National Bourbon Heritage Month

[FlyerNutter]

Is it more about success?

Or about keeping the incompetent pigs employed in the country club?

 

[FlyerNutter]

Maybe the prospects simply weren't very good?
TK (19), Provorov (19), Patrick (19), Sanheim (21), Farabee (19), York (21).

Seems they slow-rolled the less talented prospects. The good players start at a fairly young age.
It would also help if they stayed healthy, Frost missed a season, Allison dinged a couple years, and so on. If Brink is healthy last year, he's probably already set up to start this year.

Giroux, and Lindros in 3 decades lol

Maybe it’s the scouting, and development staff that simply aren’t very good.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Maybe the prospects simply weren't very good?
TK (19), Provorov (19), Patrick (19), Sanheim (21), Farabee (19), York (21).

Seems they slow-rolled the less talented prospects. The good players start at a fairly young age.
It would also help if they stayed healthy, Frost missed a season, Allison dinged a couple years, and so on. If Brink is healthy last year, he's probably already set up to start this year.

Ah so you admit you were incredibly wrong about every prospect, including most drafted by Fletcher?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Maybe the prospects simply weren't very good?
TK (19), Provorov (19), Patrick (19), Sanheim (21), Farabee (19), York (21).

Seems they slow-rolled the less talented prospects. The good players start at a fairly young age.
It would also help if they stayed healthy, Frost missed a season, Allison dinged a couple years, and so on. If Brink is healthy last year, he's probably already set up to start this year.

My post was meant to be so absurd that it couldn’t be what I believed.

We have to stop invenitng patterns. Good teams don’t all follow a specific plan. We can’t just look at the teams that win the Cup because we know the playoffs aren’t a reasonable method for finding the best team and we know hockey has a ton of randomness to it.

The Flyers are either making these determinations based upon their own organization and their own players or they’re lost. There is no third option.

 

[deadhead]

My post was meant to be so absurd that it couldn’t be what I believed.

We have to stop invenitng patterns. Good teams don’t all follow a specific plan. We can’t just look at the teams that win the Cup because we know the playoffs aren’t a reasonable method for finding the best team and we know hockey has a ton of randomness to it.

The Flyers are either making these determinations based upon their own organization and their own players or they’re lost. There is no third option.

Sorry, too many ridiculous takes around here.

I don't think there's a "right" way so much as there is a wrong way.

Whatever strategy, you need competence and luck, if Chicago picks #3, tanking don't look so smart (unless you're Colorado, picking 4th with the worst record and ending up with Makar).

If you can't draft, tanking won't help, you'll just end up with JVR and Gagner.

Meanwhile, you can rebuild patiently without tanking, as long as you're consistent in adding draft picks, preserving cap room and not trying to win now. I'm less worried about blocking second tier prospects this year than whether Briere will continue to add young assets the next 2-3 years.

But I think the biggest problem for most teams is lack of patience, they draft high for 2-3 years, then get antsy, buy a couple FAs, start picking in the 20s for a few years, but their lack of depth dooms them to 1st and 2nd rd exits until the team falls apart. We'll see if Jersey jumped the gun.

To me, the optimal strategy is to always be adding young assets, not exclusively, but in a steady stream so you can let overpriced veterans walk and have a kid in place behind them.

 

[PALE PWNR]

It's super disappointing that we all know there's no shot this team gives a bunch of young guys a chance unless they have to because of injuries

 

[DancingPanther]

Chicago signed Nick Folino and Corey Perry and they are basically in same rebuilding stage as flyers

You're telling me the team with Bedard is at the same stage as the Flyers, whose top prospect is going to have to be pried from the hands of Russian oligarchs in 2026?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Sorry, too many ridiculous takes around here.

I don't think there's a "right" way so much as there is a wrong way.

Whatever strategy, you need competence and luck, if Chicago picks #3, tanking don't look so smart (unless you're Colorado, picking 4th with the worst record and ending up with Makar).

If you can't draft, tanking won't help, you'll just end up with JVR and Gagner.

Meanwhile, you can rebuild patiently without tanking, as long as you're consistent in adding draft picks, preserving cap room and not trying to win now. I'm less worried about blocking second tier prospects this year than whether Briere will continue to add young assets the next 2-3 years.

But I think the biggest problem for most teams is lack of patience, they draft high for 2-3 years, then get antsy, buy a couple FAs, start picking in the 20s for a few years, but their lack of depth dooms them to 1st and 2nd rd exits until the team falls apart. We'll see if Jersey jumped the gun.

To me, the optimal strategy is to always be adding young assets, not exclusively, but in a steady stream so you can let overpriced veterans walk and have a kid in place behind them.

Yes! Yes yes yes yes yes yes. You need both competence and luck. Not want. Need.

The biggest thing I want to see out of an org is an understanding that you need the latter. Stack up large quantities of draft picks. Take big swings on skill on draft day. Rather than targeting depth players with a high quantity of bidders early in UFA, look for values. Adjust your wants to what the market will bear. Show me that you’re always looking for edges. The league as a whole is still a fairly soft market, although it is toughening by the year.

Since you brought up the Blackhawks, I’m interested to see if anything changes with Jeff Greenberg taking off for an MLB GM gig. That was a very important person in that FO.

 

[Tripod]

Sorry, too many ridiculous takes around here.

I don't think there's a "right" way so much as there is a wrong way.

Whatever strategy, you need competence and luck, if Chicago picks #3, tanking don't look so smart (unless you're Colorado, picking 4th with the worst record and ending up with Makar).

If you can't draft, tanking won't help, you'll just end up with JVR and Gagner.

Meanwhile, you can rebuild patiently without tanking, as long as you're consistent in adding draft picks, preserving cap room and not trying to win now. I'm less worried about blocking second tier prospects this year than whether Briere will continue to add young assets the next 2-3 years.

But I think the biggest problem for most teams is lack of patience, they draft high for 2-3 years, then get antsy, buy a couple FAs, start picking in the 20s for a few years, but their lack of depth dooms them to 1st and 2nd rd exits until the team falls apart. We'll see if Jersey jumped the gun.

To me, the optimal strategy is to always be adding young assets, not exclusively, but in a steady stream so you can let overpriced veterans walk and have a kid in place behind them.

Need competence? Flyers have shown none.
Preserving cap room? We are near max.
Not trying to win now? We added a 24, 31 and 36 year old...and didn't trade Laughton.
Lack of patience? They have said this could be a 3 year rebuild
Always adding young assets? Like a 31 and 36 year old?
Let overpriced vets walk? Fletch preferred to overpay to get them, then we pay to remove them.

Seems you don't like what the Flyers are/have been doing, but refuse to say it. Instead, defend forever! After all, "one mistake" Fletcher brought us so much success.

 

[deadhead]

You're telling me the team with Bedard is at the same stage as the Flyers, whose top prospect is going to have to be pried from the hands of Russian oligarchs in 2026?

Chicago really stripped their team. they have a bunch of draft picks coming up the next two years, but almost no young players of merit on their team, so they need to hit on a lot of picks.

On Chicago's roster, there are almost no players of merit 25 and under:
Bedard (18), Reichel (21), Katchouk (25), Raddysh (25), Guttman (24), Entwhisle (24), Roos D (24), Kaiser D (21), Phillips D (22), Soderblom G (24).

Last season:
Raddysh 78g 13-9 22 ES last year
Katchouk 58g 5-11 16 ES
Reichel 23g 7-5 12 ES
Soderblom .894 Sv%

Over 30:
Hall (31), Johnson (33), Foligno (35), Blackwell (30), Zaitsev (31), Murphy (30), Tinordi (31), Mrazek (31)

Top prospects in the pipeline:
Korchinski D 7-22
Moore C 19-23
Nazar C 13-22
Dach C 62-21
Allan D 32-21
Hayes LW 62-22
Greene C 57-22

 

[Tripod]

Yes! Yes yes yes yes yes yes. You need both competence and luck. Not want. Need.

The biggest thing I want to see out of an org is an understanding that you need the latter. Stack up large quantities of draft picks. Take big swings on skill on draft day. Rather than targeting depth players with a high quantity of bidders early in UFA, look for values. Adjust your wants to what the market will bear. Show me that you’re always looking for edges. The league as a whole is still a fairly soft market, although it is toughening by the year.

Since you brought up the Blackhawks, I’m interested to see if anything changes with Jeff Greenberg taking off for an MLB GM gig. That was a very important person in that FO.

Canes vs Flyers with TDA is the perfect example of one organization understanding value in the margins, and the other just being incompetent.

They get TDA for multiple years at a much lower cap hit AND add a 2nd and 3rd from us. Oh, and use him properly on the ice and like him so much, they re-aquire him.

We use up multiple draft picks to get him AND a big cap hit to have him for 1 year clashing with coach.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Sorry, too many ridiculous takes around here.

I don't think there's a "right" way so much as there is a wrong way.

Whatever strategy, you need competence and luck, if Chicago picks #3, tanking don't look so smart (unless you're Colorado, picking 4th with the worst record and ending up with Makar).

If you can't draft, tanking won't help, you'll just end up with JVR and Gagner.

Meanwhile, you can rebuild patiently without tanking, as long as you're consistent in adding draft picks, preserving cap room and not trying to win now. I'm less worried about blocking second tier prospects this year than whether Briere will continue to add young assets the next 2-3 years.

But I think the biggest problem for most teams is lack of patience, they draft high for 2-3 years, then get antsy, buy a couple FAs, start picking in the 20s for a few years, but their lack of depth dooms them to 1st and 2nd rd exits until the team falls apart. We'll see if Jersey jumped the gun.

To me, the optimal strategy is to always be adding young assets, not exclusively, but in a steady stream so you can let overpriced veterans walk and have a kid in place behind them.

it does as you put yourself in the best position to get the best pick

 

[deadhead]

Canes vs Flyers with TDA is the perfect example of one organization understanding value in the margins, and the other just being incompetent.

They get TDA for multiple years at a much lower cap hit AND add a 2nd and 3rd from us. Oh, and use him properly on the ice and like him so much, they re-aquire him.

We use up multiple draft picks to get him AND a big cap hit to have him for 1 year clashing with coach.

Holmgren, Hextall and Fletcher are long gone, a decade of incompetence at GM.
In Holmgren's case, I think he simply couldn't adjust to the cap and new rules era, the other two just sucked.

 

[Danko]

Holmgren, Hextall and Fletcher are long gone, a decade of incompetence at GM.
In Holmgren's case, I think he simply couldn't adjust to the cap and new rules era, the other two just sucked.

Holmgren was in the press box with Keith Jones last game.

 

[deadhead]

Holmgren was in the press box with Keith Jones last game.

That's the first time he's been seen since ???
I'm sure he's friends with Keith, but I wouldn't read much more into it.

Hilferty is not going to ban these guys from the building, he wants to polish the brand, not taint it with pettiness.

 

[Danko]

That's the first time he's been seen since ???
I'm sure he's friends with Keith, but I wouldn't read much more into it.

Hilferty is not going to ban these guys from the building, he wants to polish the brand, not taint it with pettiness.

I can't with you today.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

That's the first time he's been seen since ???
I'm sure he's friends with Keith, but I wouldn't read much more into it.

Hilferty is not going to ban these guys from the building, he wants to polish the brand, not taint it with pettiness.

Just stop.

 

[Tripod]

Holmgren, Hextall and Fletcher are long gone, a decade of incompetence at GM.
In Holmgren's case, I think he simply couldn't adjust to the cap and new rules era, the other two just sucked.

You just spent 4 years defending everything Fletch did and have now continued to do so to the new regime. Hell, under Hextall you continually spouted "2 years away". And Holmgrem STILL has a job with the Flyers.

Why is it so hard for you to just criticize the people in power WHILE they are in power? Even "Hextall lovers" ripped him for not firing Hak, or Gordon. Ripped the development of prospects. Ripped not adding a good goalie to bridge to Hart. Etc...

It's one thing to try and stay positive especially when changes are made near the top. But when you can clearly see the same archaic thinking is continuing with the new regime, it's ok to agree with others and criticize this organization.

Instead, you say dumb shit like Fletch only really made 1 mistake....and now you are saying he was incompetent. Which was it?

 

[deadhead]

Right, Holmgren is running things from the shadows, which is why they drafted 3 skilled forwards in the 1st 4 rounds.

 

[deadhead]

You just spent 4 years defending everything Fletch did and have now continued to do so to the new regime. Hell, under Hextall you continually spouted "2 years away". And Holmgrem STILL has a job with the Flyers.

Why is it so hard for you to just criticize the people in power WHILE they are in power? Even "Hextall lovers" ripped him for not firing Hak, or Gordon. Ripped the development of prospects. Ripped not adding a good goalie to bridge to Hart. Etc...

It's one thing to try and stay positive especially when changes are made near the top. But when you can clearly see the same archaic thinking is continuing with the new regime, it's ok to agree with others and criticize this organization.

Instead, you say dumb shit like Fletch only really made 1 mistake....and now you are saying he was incompetent. Which was it?

I didn't "Defend" every thing Fletcher did, but there's a difference between good moves implementing a bad strategy (2019) and bad moves (2021). Fletcher didn't decide they should "win now" after 2018, that was all Holmgren, Nor did he decide to "aggressively reload," that was Scott/Barber.

He did a good job in the summer of 2019 (rebuilt them to the 2nd rd of the playoffs), he did a bad job (other than the G trade) in 2021.

The world is not black and white (other than the Dallas Cowboys, aka "scum of the earth").

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sorry, too many ridiculous takes around here.

I don't think there's a "right" way so much as there is a wrong way.

Whatever strategy, you need competence and luck, if Chicago picks #3, tanking don't look so smart (unless you're Colorado, picking 4th with the worst record and ending up with Makar).

If you can't draft, tanking won't help, you'll just end up with JVR and Gagner.

Meanwhile, you can rebuild patiently without tanking, as long as you're consistent in adding draft picks, preserving cap room and not trying to win now. I'm less worried about blocking second tier prospects this year than whether Briere will continue to add young assets the next 2-3 years.

But I think the biggest problem for most teams is lack of patience, they draft high for 2-3 years, then get antsy, buy a couple FAs, start picking in the 20s for a few years, but their lack of depth dooms them to 1st and 2nd rd exits until the team falls apart. We'll see if Jersey jumped the gun.

To me, the optimal strategy is to always be adding young assets, not exclusively, but in a steady stream so you can let overpriced veterans walk and have a kid in place behind them.

The thing you completely fail to grasp is that the Flyers are incompetent.

Right, Holmgren is running things from the shadows, which is why they drafted 3 skilled forwards in the 1st 4 rounds.

Holmgren successfully added vastly more skill to the roster than the last two GMs so that isnt as unreasonable as you think it sounds.

I didn't "Defend" every thing Fletcher did, but there's a difference between good moves implementing a bad strategy (2019) and bad moves (2021). Fletcher didn't decide they should "win now" after 2018, that was all Holmgren, Nor did he decide to "aggressively reload," that was Scott/Barber.

He did a good job in the summer of 2019 (rebuilt them to the 2nd rd of the playoffs), he did a bad job (other than the G trade) in 2021.

The world is not black and white (other than the Dallas Cowboys, aka "scum of the earth").

You literally defended and justified every single thing he did. You proclaimed he didn't make any mistakes. At one point you had him at one mistake, but you eventually rescinded that.

 

[Tripod]

I didn't "Defend" every thing Fletcher did, but there's a difference between good moves implementing a bad strategy (2019) and bad moves (2021). Fletcher didn't decide they should "win now" after 2018, that was all Holmgren, Nor did he decide to "aggressively reload," that was Scott/Barber.

He did a good job in the summer of 2019 (rebuilt them to the 2nd rd of the playoffs), he did a bad job (other than the G trade) in 2021.

The world is not black and white (other than the Dallas Cowboys, aka "scum of the earth").

Again, it's easy to be honest and say moves are good, or bad as they happen. Instead, you say all is good, until they are fired. Defend, defend, defend.

Your fear of agreeing with the masses even for individual moves, consumes you.

So you are saying Fletch made more than 1 mistake? Glad you can finally admit it.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Today is off to a good one here in this thread and the Eagles.

 

[deadhead]

Again, it's easy to be honest and say moves are good, or bad as they happen. Instead, you say all is good, until they are fired. Defend, defend, defend.

Your fear of agreeing with the masses even for individual moves, consumes you.

So you are saying Fletch made more than 1 mistake? Glad you can finally admit it.

No, I criticized a number of moves at the time.
I just didn't pile on. Don't need to on this board.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]