2023-24 Roster Thread 4: September is National Bourbon Heritage Month

[Tripod]

I can't help but note the irony of saying the players weren't overrated while citing accolades that you are clearly overrating.

CHL Goalie of the Year is a meaningless award with zero bearing on NHL success, independent of the Flyers' development. That applies for essentially everything else you listed. Those accolades aren't as remarkable as you're making them out to be.

And not only are they relatively meaningless, but our players still actually ended up better than their contemporaries in many cases. Hart is a better NHL player than your typical CHL Goalie of the Year, Ghost is a better NHL player than your typical Frozen 4 MVP, Provorov is a better NHL player than your typical WHL Dman of the year, etc. Did our development do a good job of making them better players than the average?

Good for you, you missed the entire point.

When you have almost an entire prospect pool that has excelled against it's peers to varying degrees, then that development comes to a screeching haul once the Flyers get their grubby hands on them, that's an issue. A development issue.

Sometimes things are very easy to see, just need to open your eyes.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Briere trying hard to communicate he, and Torts are on the same page. "He's been a blast to work with"

- yest presser

 

[deadhead]

Good for you, you missed the entire point.

When you have almost an entire prospect pool that has excelled against it's peers to varying degrees, then that development comes to a screeching haul once the Flyers get their grubby hands on them, that's an issue. A development issue.

Sometimes things are very easy to see, just need to open your eyes.

Problem is many of them flopped well before the Flyers got their hands on them.
Rubtsov, Laberge, JOB, Dove-McFalls, Tomek, etc.
Others flatlined after they were drafted.
It's not like we had guys coming off great D+2 seasons who suddenly cratered.
There s Frost who was rushed at 20, hurt at 21, and struggled at 22.
Patrick.
Ratcliffe, but even his 50 goal season was known to be misleading at the time.
That's about it.

 

[Tripod]

Problem is many of them flopped well before the Flyers got their hands on them.
Rubtsov, Laberge, JOB, Dove-McFalls, Tomek, etc.
Others flatlined after they were drafted.
It's not like we had guys coming off great D+2 seasons who suddenly cratered.
There s Frost who was rushed at 20, hurt at 21, and struggled at 22.
Patrick.
Ratcliffe, but even his 50 goal season was known to be misleading at the time.
That's about it.

We had MULTIPLE guys who had great D+1 and D+2 seasons, and never got any better. You know this. No need to lie, again.

Don't worry though, THIS prospect group we have now with THIS development group, will be different. Just look at Willman, right?

 

[deadhead]

We had MULTIPLE guys who had great D+1 and D+2 seasons, and never got any better. You know this. No need to lie, again.

Don't worry though, THIS prospect group we have now with THIS development group, will be different. Just look at Willman, right?

Simply not true. Sayin' don't make it so.

Willman was an older UDFA, AHL fodder. Though if stronger might have made a good 4th line checker, but like Leier, too weak to play physical, too unskilled to play an offensive role.

Matt Brown on the other hand is coming off a very good senior season (39g 16-31 47) from a major college program and has speed and is willing to mix it up with his fireplug body. Probably no more than an AHL plus player, but on an AHL contract, costs nothing to give him a chance.

 

[Striiker]

I dont give a f*** about TK, and Ghost. Overrated the both of them, and nice above average players. League has plenty of them.

Unforgivable.

 

[Tripod]

Simply not true. Sayin' don't make it so.

Willman was an older UDFA, AHL fodder. Though if stronger might have made a good 4th line checker, but like Leier, too weak to play physical, too unskilled to play an offensive role.

Matt Brown on the other hand is coming off a very good senior season (39g 16-31 47) from a major college program and has speed and is willing to mix it up with his fireplug body. Probably no more than an AHL plus player, but on an AHL contract, costs nothing to give him a chance.

1 year ago you used Willman as an example of the Flyers having good development.

We remember.

 

[Magua]

It blows my mind people could watch the growth of Hayden Hodgson, our own Verhaeghe, and criticize player development.

 

[deadhead]

Willman was a nothing scrub that they turned into a serviceable AHL plus player. That turned out to be his ceiling b/c he just couldn't get stronger (genetics plays a factor). Sometimes development is about making an ECHL player into a solid AHL player (Millman for example would be a candidate).

Avon is a much superior version of Willman, faster, already up to 190, showed in the OHL playoffs that he can come up big in big games, and is a solid defender/PK type. Good development won't turn him into a top 6 player, b/c he doesn't have the raw skill package, but with a little luck, into a solid bottom six guy who can help the PK.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

1 year ago you used Willman as an example of the Flyers having good development.

We remember.

Love the fact too that he was drafted by the Sabres and didn't get into the Phantoms until he was 24 and didn't play for the Flyers until he was 26/27 years old. Might as well say that Matt Read was all because of Flyers development.

I know I have the guy on mute but holy shit, I'm getting what he's saying by just your responses and I feel like someone needs help...

 

[Redpath]

Good for you, you missed the entire point.

When you have almost an entire prospect pool that has excelled against it's peers to varying degrees, then that development comes to a screeching haul once the Flyers get their grubby hands on them, that's an issue. A development issue.

Sometimes things are very easy to see, just need to open your eyes.

And you are overrating the basis on which you are claiming the prospect pool "excelled against their peers," which was my entire point. Unless you believe that every single Frozen 4 MVP flops in the NHL (Far, far worse than Ghost has, mind you) because of developmental issues.

 

[Magua]

Willman was a nothing scrub that they turned into a serviceable AHL plus player.

"Lappy made Willman into a NHL player, now that's quite an accomplishment. Actually, Willman probably deserves most of the credit for his perseverance."

The pretzels you continually twist yourself into are nothing short of impressive. You even were trying to directly compare Frost and Willman in 21-22, as if they were equals.

I'll tell you how many games you watched of Willman to definitively declare him an NHL player (thanks, Lappy!): 20 games. Now, 1.5 years later, with 50 games, he was always a nothing scrub. Out the other side of your mouth, you say 8 games and 80 minutes was enough to evalute Lycksell, a player with a far far better track record. It doesn't jibe because they both can't be true. Now, saying you need 40, 50, 100 games to really formulate an evaluation? That is consistent.

 

[deadhead]

I haven't evaluated Lycksell as anything - that's the problem - he is a late bloomer but his upside is still unknown, is he an AHL plus player or a top nine NHL player (unlikely to be a 4th liner)? I mean that's the same problem with Poehling, he's failed to live up to 1st rd status but has flashed enough that he could be a reliable 4C - but not enough to be confident right now.

Willman, like Leier, was a fast player who was an aggressive forechecker but in the end just couldn't get strong enough to be effective in that role. He was more effective in the AHL b/c he was relatively faster than his peers so lack of strength didn't matter as much - gee, wonder why they put stress on these guys getting stronger as the windows get smaller (and contact more frequent).

It wasn't that Willman was in the same league as Frost, it's that Frost didn't outplay Willman in the AHL by the kind of margin you'd expect from a top talent - which is why I became skeptical of Frost. Imagine Michkov at 18 in the AHL, think he'd score at a 0.5 ppg rate? Then look at Frost at 20.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Simply not true. Sayin' don't make it so.

Willman was an older UDFA, AHL fodder. Though if stronger might have made a good 4th line checker, but like Leier, too weak to play physical, too unskilled to play an offensive role.

Matt Brown on the other hand is coming off a very good senior season (39g 16-31 47) from a major college program and has speed and is willing to mix it up with his fireplug body. Probably no more than an AHL plus player, but on an AHL contract, costs nothing to give him a chance.

this is one reason you are my favorite poster.

You flat out know know attard ginning zamula have zero chance tp beat out stall or seeler for a top 6 role no matter how they play in camp and pre-season. For the life of me I cant figure out why you believe this will happen. I enjoy your post and agree with a lot of what you say. This however is insane to thin imo.

A path should have been made for one of those above to crack the top 6. It was not. To say otherwise is flat out lying. Again if I am incorrect will gladly admit as much.

The forest has a shot only because the coach does not alike Allison or tanner. The other forwards I have zero issue starting in LHV. Forest to me at this point has not much at all to gain if sent down. Unless he is flat out putrid

 

[deadhead]

Zamula is almost certain to win a job unless he falls flat on his face. Out of options and Torts likes him.

But he will probably block the others initially, unless they're so good (unlikely for all but Andrae) that they force Torts' hand. I mean have you see anything from Grans or Ginning that says they'd be a lock without signing Staal? Attard is a more interesting case, it's a matter of how many defensive mistakes he'll make while producing offense - if he cleaned up his act and isn't TDA v.2 he has a chance.

York, Walker, Risto and Sanheim are locks. Staal and Seeler are placekeepers.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Zamula is almost certain to win a job unless he falls flat on his face. Out of options and Torts likes him.

But he will probably block the others initially, unless they're so good (unlikely for all but Andrae) that they force Torts' hand. I mean have you see anything from Grans or Ginning that says they'd be a lock without signing Staal? Attard is a more interesting case, it's a matter of how many defensive mistakes he'll make while producing offense - if he cleaned up his act and isn't TDA v.2 he has a chance.

York, Walker, Risto and Sanheim are locks. Staal and Seeler are placekeepers.

no zamula is almost certain to make the roster you mean. Not a top 6 spot by any means.

so who you sitting for him if he does beat out the vet in camp? Then ask yourself will the co-gm/coach do that?

I don't need t see anything form Ginning or any other as an example. As I already know what seeler and staal bring to the table.

you live with their mistakes. If they suck so bad next man up. that is what rebuilding and shit teams do to see what they have going forward.

Place keeper lol. Good fn lord.

 

[freakydallas13]

Willman, like Leier, was a fast player who was an aggressive forechecker but in the end just couldn't get strong enough to be effective in that role. He was more effective in the AHL b/c he was relatively faster than his peers so lack of strength didn't matter as much - gee, wonder why they put stress on these guys getting stronger as the windows get smaller (and contact more frequent).

Then why did you claim Lappy made Willman into an NHL player?

 

[deadhead]

Then why did you claim Lappy made Willman into an NHL player?

Because he went from a scrub at the AHL level to a player who could actually contribute at the NHL level for short stretches. Notice he got invited to another NHL camp. Problem is the longer he played the more his limitations became apparent.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Problem is many of them flopped well before the Flyers got their hands on them.
Rubtsov, Laberge, JOB, Dove-McFalls, Tomek, etc.
Others flatlined after they were drafted.
It's not like we had guys coming off great D+2 seasons who suddenly cratered.
There s Frost who was rushed at 20, hurt at 21, and struggled at 22.
Patrick.
Ratcliffe, but even his 50 goal season was known to be misleading at the time.
That's about it.

I look forward to you adding Tuomaala to that list.

 

[freakydallas13]

Because he went from a scrub at the AHL level to a player who could actually contribute at the NHL level for short stretches. Notice he got invited to another NHL camp. Problem is the longer he played the more his limitations became apparent.

But Willman isn't even close to an NHL player.

 

[deadhead]

But Willman isn't even close to an NHL player.

He played 50 games, 2020-21 in 41g games, xGFrel -1.88, isn't very good, isn't terrible.
last year, Laczynski in 32g, xGFrel -7.31 in a similar 4th line role.
So you can make the case that Willman was more of a NHL player than Laczynski has shown so far.

 

[freakydallas13]

He played 50 games, 2020-21 in 41g games, xGFrel -1.88, isn't very good, isn't terrible.
last year, Laczynski in 32g, xGFrel -7.31 in a similar 4th line role.
So you can make the case that Willman was more of a NHL player than Laczynski has shown so far.

Playing 50 games over 2 seasons for one of the worst teams in the leauge does not an NHL player make. Especially since last season he only played 9 games.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The gymnastics.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Right it's fully possible for Hayes to be a trash player and also be right about Tortorella. These aren't mutually exclusive options. It's possible to think he is accurate about Tortorella, since what he says matches what we've witnessed, without that meaning we are suddenly pro-Hayes. Shades of grey exist.

exactly ^^^