2023-24 Roster Thread 4: September is National Bourbon Heritage Month

[blackjackmulligan]

So much for the "No active players slam Tortorella publicly!" defense.

I'm sure now we will hear about how this doesn't count.

I dont think he "slammed" him at all really.

 

[deadhead]

Pascal Laberge is 2 years away from a blue ox sidekick.

Listen to Hayes diss Torts. “He only wants fighters….” https://x.com/andystrickland/status/1704220189410099347?s=46&t=PSOAhHo7oDwK6fo_qWZr1w

He wants players to hit, back check, etc.

Hayes played a lot more than 11 minutes a night down the stretch, and he played on the PP1 to boot, so I don't know what he was whining about. Yes, he was demoted to the 3rd line with Laughton and Allison but played almost much as Frost and Cates. And he was taken off the PK b/c he lost a stride, and they wanted the forwards to be more aggressive, not just force PK scoring chances.

Hayes even admits that Torts was fine off the ice, his problem with Torts was similar to Dubinsky in CBJ - veteran doesn't want to admit his skills are declining so he blames the HC for a lesser role.

Torts didn't like Hayes for the same reason he didn't like JVR and would not have like Jake, he has no use for big forwards who want to be finesse players. To him, size is a "skill" and you need to use it - win board battles, crash the net, go to dirty areas, be a roadblock on defense. If youj're gonna play like you're 5'10 180, it's easy to replace you with a skilled player who's 5'10 180 and quicker than you.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I thought Torts was always 100% clear with his players with what he wanted? So Hayes saying that Torts wanted more fighting and hitting must be what actually happened.

Unless, of course, this is just another example of Torts being misinterpreted and that’s not actually what he meant. Luckily we have the Torts whisperer here that knows what Torts REALLY means even when it’s a complete 180 from what the words that he says mean.

It really is tragic how the man just is constantly misunderstood. The only tragedy that I can think of that’s similar is Chuck Fletcher’s luck.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

He wants players to hit, back check, etc.

Hayes played a lot more than 11 minutes a night down the stretch, and he played on the PP1 to boot, so I don't know what he was whining about. Yes, he was demoted to the 3rd line with Laughton and Allison but played almost much as Frost and Cates. And he was taken off the PK b/c he lost a stride, and they wanted the forwards to be more aggressive, not just force PK scoring chances.

Hayes even admits that Torts was fine off the ice, his problem with Torts was similar to Dubinsky in CBJ - veteran doesn't want to admit his skills are declining so he blames the HC for a lesser role.

Torts didn't like Hayes for the same reason he didn't like JVR and would not have like Jake, he has no use for big forwards who want to be finesse players. To him, size is a "skill" and you need to use it - win board battles, crash the net, go to dirty areas, be a roadblock on defense. If youj're gonna play like you're 5'10 180, it's easy to replace you with a skilled player who's 5'10 180 and quicker than you.

so in other words players who have it and don't use it, the coach will not adapt to use the skills they have?

Agree with your earlier points

 

[DancingPanther]

Jike Baborella

 

[deadhead]

so in other words players who have it and don't use it, the coach will not adapt to use the skills they have?

Agree with your earlier points

There are few big forwards who are as fast and quick as smaller skilled forwards.
So it makes sense to replace big finesse forwards with quicker, faster smaller finesse forwards.
Big skiiled forwards who use their body are more valuable. See Tkachuk on Florida

 

[Rich Nixon]

Torts didn't like Hayes for the same reason he didn't like JVR and would not have like Jake, he has no use for big forwards who want to be finesse players. To him, size is a "skill" and you need to use it - win board battles, crash the net, go to dirty areas, be a roadblock on defense. If youj're gonna play like you're 5'10 180, it's easy to replace you with a skilled player who's 5'10 180 and quicker than you.

But not nearly as easy as replacing you with a guy who is 6'3" 215 and sucks ass.

 

[ponder719]

If youj're gonna play like you're 5'10 180, it's easy to replace you with a skilled player who's 5'10 180 and quicker than you.

Then why is that never the type of player they replace them with?

 

[deadhead]

Then why is that never the type of player they replace them with?

Who's "they?"

Briere just drafted Michkov, Barkley and Ciernak, invited Fauchon and Brown to rookie camp.
Gendron as well drafted last year.

 

[SuchySays]

Now we got people defending Kevin Hayes, lmfao.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Now we got people defending Kevin Hayes, lmfao.

Nobody has done that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Who's "they?"

Briere just drafted Michkov, Barkley and Ciernak, invited Fauchon and Brown to rookie camp.
Gendron as well drafted last year.

Which of them is on the NHL roster?

Oh right. There's no space even for possible guys who are ready now. Because they keep signing bottom six grinder veterans.

 

[renberg]

Nobody has done that.

IDK Beef. It seems like some in the anti-Torts crowd are giving air to Hayes' complaints about being misused last year. IMO, Torts gave some players a rough ride with PT but Hayes has no complaints. His play has slid dramatically over the last two seasons. Perhaps this is due to his surgeries. He has lost speed; never was good at FOs; known for being a puck hog. His biggest assets are his size and reach. That's best suited for playing wing which he didn't want to do here.

 

[VladDrag]

He wants players to hit, back check, etc.

Hayes played a lot more than 11 minutes a night down the stretch, and he played on the PP1 to boot, so I don't know what he was whining about. Yes, he was demoted to the 3rd line with Laughton and Allison but played almost much as Frost and Cates. And he was taken off the PK b/c he lost a stride, and they wanted the forwards to be more aggressive, not just force PK scoring chances.

Hayes even admits that Torts was fine off the ice, his problem with Torts was similar to Dubinsky in CBJ - veteran doesn't want to admit his skills are declining so he blames the HC for a lesser role.

Torts didn't like Hayes for the same reason he didn't like JVR and would not have like Jake, he has no use for big forwards who want to be finesse players. To him, size is a "skill" and you need to use it - win board battles, crash the net, go to dirty areas, be a roadblock on defense. If youj're gonna play like you're 5'10 180, it's easy to replace you with a skilled player who's 5'10 180 and quicker than you.

This is exactly how the previous Buffalo regime thought of Tage Thompson....FYI.

 

[freakydallas13]

He wants players to hit, back check, etc.

The exact quote Hayes used was "...he [Torts] wants fighting, hitting".

"Back checking" was added by you, the Torts whisperer.

 

[Beef Invictus]

IDK Beef. It seems like some in the anti-Torts crowd are giving air to Hayes' complaints about being misused last year. IMO, Torts gave some players a rough ride with PT but Hayes has no complaints. His play has slid dramatically over the last two seasons. Perhaps this is due to his surgeries. He has lost speed; never was good at FOs; known for being a puck hog. His biggest assets are his size and reach. That's best suited for playing wing which he didn't want to do here.

Multiple players were misused. I don't like Hates as a player but I also can't say he was used best either.

But mostly, people are highlighting the hitting and fighting. Since that lines up with what he's said and done.

Nobody is defending Hayes.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

This is exactly how the previous Buffalo regime thought of Tage Thompson....FYI.

Available for a 6th rounder. No one bit.

Evaluating hockey players is hard.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Available for a 6th rounder. No one bit.

Evaluating hockey players is hard.

Well, not as hard as some management groups make it look though.

 

[Redpath]

It's not overrated when you have:

CHL goalie of the year
WHL Dman of the year
SHL player of the year
Guy being top CHL dcorer
Guy putting up PPG stats unseen in 20 years in WHL
#2 overall pick
Top pairing Dman for Canada at WJC
A top scorer at WJC
Multiple guys who were their top guys on their team at the WJC
Top goalie at WJC
Honey Baker finslst
A top scorer in NCAAA
Frozen 4 MVP

AND THESE WERE ALL DIFFERENT GUYS

Then we also had a slew of guy's who were 40 goal scorers in CHL, or NCAA All Stars, or WJC guys

Yet we did not DEVELOP, arguably any, more than their expected potential. Maybe Konecny...but he seems to have gotten there despite the development, not because of it.

So while we ARE on track to having a good prospect pool in the near future, you still have to develop those prospect properly at the AHL level and in the 1st few years of NHL. And the Flyers are still littered with archaic thinkers AND DOERS from top to bottom. They have done nothing to think they will not f*** things up again, regardless how good prospects are when drafted or before the Flyers get their grubby hands on them.

But I have a busy day, so likely won't anymore on this topic. enjoy your day!

I can't help but note the irony of saying the players weren't overrated while citing accolades that you are clearly overrating.

CHL Goalie of the Year is a meaningless award with zero bearing on NHL success, independent of the Flyers' development. That applies for essentially everything else you listed. Those accolades aren't as remarkable as you're making them out to be.

And not only are they relatively meaningless, but our players still actually ended up better than their contemporaries in many cases. Hart is a better NHL player than your typical CHL Goalie of the Year, Ghost is a better NHL player than your typical Frozen 4 MVP, Provorov is a better NHL player than your typical WHL Dman of the year, etc. Did our development do a good job of making them better players than the average?

 

[FlyerNutter]

Lindros, and Giroux in 30 years.

Yet we are defending Flyers development.

Dosgshit incompetent org held hostage by its former alumni, and identity from 50 years go.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Lindros, and Giroux in 30 years.

Yet we are defending Flyers development.

Dosgshit incompetent org held hostage by its former alumni, and identity from 50 years ago.

TK and Ghost struggling, then turning it around, and admitting it happened because they decided to f***ing ignore the team's coaching. Lecavalier going to LA and asking them to help him build his skills back up because Philly ignored that stuff so much that it was like forgetting how to play hockey.

Prospects almost always falling short and regressing. Veterans regressing. Skills development and maintenance doesn't exist.

 

[FlyerNutter]

TK and Ghost struggling, then turning it around, and admitting it happened because they decided to f***ing ignore the team's coaching. Lecavalier going to LA and asking them to help him build his skills back up because Philly ignored that stuff so much that it was like forgetting how to play hockey.

Prospects almost always falling short and regressing

I dont give a f*** about TK, and Ghost. Overrated the both of them, and nice above average players. League has plenty of them.

What have the Flyers developed or drafted that's actually of note?

It's not about success with this team. It's not about adapting. Just as long as Sinatra blares in the background, and we can say that a pathetic identity has been kept alive.

Hextall is POS GM, but he was a 1000% correct in trying to banish the alumni from the impact they have.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

No, with this roster, if they're a PO team, their players are a lot better than fans thought.
When you're a PO team with a full pipeline and a draft heavy with picks, that's usually a GOOD thing.

What would be bad is if they signed free agents and traded picks to make the playoffs.

I'm sorry, I hope you don't think we have a full pipeline, because it's not even close

 

[Larry44]

IDK Beef. It seems like some in the anti-Torts crowd are giving air to Hayes' complaints about being misused last year. IMO, Torts gave some players a rough ride with PT but Hayes has no complaints. His play has slid dramatically over the last two seasons. Perhaps this is due to his surgeries. He has lost speed; never was good at FOs; known for being a puck hog. His biggest assets are his size and reach. That's best suited for playing wing which he didn't want to do here.

I want it on the record that I shared the clip because I hate both of them!

 

[Beef Invictus]

I want it on the record that I shared the clip because I hate both of them!

Right it's fully possible for Hayes to be a trash player and also be right about Tortorella. These aren't mutually exclusive options. It's possible to think he is accurate about Tortorella, since what he says matches what we've witnessed, without that meaning we are suddenly pro-Hayes. Shades of grey exist.