2023-24 Roster Thread 4: September is National Bourbon Heritage Month

[Tripod]

Can someone unbiased point out all these stats that confirm Cates was ELITE defensively?

And by elite, it mean he had to be like top 3. You know, because Giroux was not elite because he was not Sid, Ovi or Malkin.

And we certainly don't want anyone to exaggerate about Cates.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Can someone unbiased point out all these stats that confirm Cates was ELITE defensively?

And by elite, it mean he had to be like top 3. You know, because Giroux was not elite because he was not Sid, Ovi or Malkin.

And we certainly don't want anyone to exaggerate about Cates.

He had 99-100% percentile 5v5 defensive impact last year according to most analytical models. His offensive impacts were on the opposite end.

So it did happen last year. The argument going forward is how sustainable are those defensive impacts because across the board defensive impacts by those models can be wildly inconsistent from year to year & a lot of Cates’ current on value is tied completely to that.

Yeah the offense could improve but I doubt you’re really more than an average or below average player on that front. Another thing with Cates is he’s 24 now (will 25 in season this year) he’s in & has been in his athletic prime since he’s been with the Flyers.

 

[deadhead]

He had 99-100% percentile 5v5 defensive impact last year according to most analytical models. His offensive impacts were on the opposite end.

So it did happen last year. The argument going forward is how sustainable are those defensive impacts because across the board defensive impacts by those models can be wildly inconsistent from year to year & a lot of Cates’ current on value is tied completely to that.

Yeah the offense could improve but I doubt you’re really more than an average or below average player on that front. Another thing with Cates is he’s 24 now (will 25 in season this year) he’s in & has been in his athletic prime since he’s been with the Flyers.

And that's why they play the games.
Cates was also adjusting to center while getting the toughest matchups.
We'll see how he does this year.
Right now, I can't see how you can conclude that either Frost or Cates will be either a 2C or a flop.

And if Couts is healthy and Gauthier can stay at center, it may not matter.

 

[Tripod]

He had 99-100% percentile 5v5 defensive impact last year according to most analytical models. His offensive impacts were on the opposite end.

So it did happen last year. The argument going forward is how sustainable are those defensive impacts because across the board defensive impacts by those models can be wildly inconsistent from year to year & a lot of Cates’ current on value is tied completely to that.

Yeah the offense could improve but I doubt you’re really more than an average or below average player on that front. Another thing with Cates is he’s 24 now (will 25 in season this year) he’s in & has been in his athletic prime since he’s been with the Flyers.

Appreciate this. Good to know he was that good defensively....just what you want from a 4th line C....lol.

 

[Beef Invictus]

And that's why they play the games.
Cates was also adjusting to center while getting the toughest matchups.
We'll see how he does this year.
Right now, I can't see how you can conclude that either Frost or Cates will be either a 2C or a flop.

And if Couts is healthy and Gauthier can stay at center, it may not matter.

1) the options aren't 2C or Flop
2) Cates can't score enough to be a 2C. You're squandering the offensive potential of your top six to make it a checking line. That's loser hockey.

 

[Curufinwe]

Cates is really good defensively. He’s also a wing.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Cates is really good defensively. He’s also a wing.

Torts won't hear of it (him being a wing).

 

[Beef Invictus]

The problem with having all your utility come from defense is that if you can't maintain that sky-high level, he's never going to make up for it in any other way. It's expecting a lot.

At least if you've got an all-offense guy, he can be masked/managed during cold streaks. If you're defensive specialist has a down year, then that's that. There's no making up for it any other way. This is basic stuff. It's why every competent team has Cates in their bottom six, not second line.

 

[snoop88]

I still don’t understand how you guys have the energy to argue/debate this bad team each and every day in the offseason like this.

I thought I liked hockey, but god damn. It’s next level in this sub.

 

[Curufinwe]

Shooting dead fish in a barrel is pretty easy work, tbh.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

I still don’t understand how you guys have the energy to argue/debate this bad team each and every day in the offseason like this.

I thought I liked hockey, but god damn. It’s next level in this sub.

I think it's because we care and it's hard to ignore the level of incompetence that goes on when it comes to coaching, player management, front office and the paid media people around them.

Basically, we know it can be better, but many people prevent it.

 

[deadhead]

So far, Briere has earned the benefit of the doubt.

No, he's not doing what some here want, but he's building up the prospect pipeline and already has a loaded 2024 draft (2) 1st, (2) 2nds, (2) 6ths, with a number of TDL trade options. He's added some prospects, dumped some veteran contracts.

Keith Jones between periods was asked how long it's going to take, and his answer was we don't know, depends on what we see.

I don't think they're trying to win so much as they want to gradually move in prospects without rushing them, and provide a better environment for player development (be competitive in games, have the right veterans to mentor them, don't have the blind lead the blind).

Whether it's the right strategy remains to be seen.

But even if they wanted to blow it up, given the contracts Briere inherited, he couldn't do so for a couple of seasons - you simply can't move Couts, Atkinson, Sanheim or Risto this season.

 

[Redpath]

Can Farabee, York, Sanehim, etc. start leaking to Chiclets all of Torts' behind-the-scenes behaviors? Maybe that will force Briere's hand

 

[Tripod]

Coulda traded Laughton.....

So could of had more picks or prospects already in the pipeline. But we know deep down, they want to try and be good next year. And as a result, kids won't play as much as they could and instead, minutes will be wasted on some trash vets for no reason.

 

[freakydallas13]

So far, Briere has earned the benefit of the doubt.

No one associated with this team's management has earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

So far, Briere has earned the benefit of the doubt.

No, he's not doing what some here want, but he's building up the prospect pipeline and already has a loaded 2024 draft (2) 1st, (2) 2nds, (2) 6ths, with a number of TDL trade options. He's added some prospects, dumped some veteran contracts.

Keith Jones between periods was asked how long it's going to take, and his answer was we don't know, depends on what we see.

I don't think they're trying to win so much as they want to gradually move in prospects without rushing them, and provide a better environment for player development (be competitive in games, have the right veterans to mentor them, don't have the blind lead the blind).

Whether it's the right strategy remains to be seen.

But even if they wanted to blow it up, given the contracts Briere inherited, he couldn't do so for a couple of seasons - you simply can't move Couts, Atkinson, Sanheim or Risto this season.

you could still "blow" it up with those 4 contracts. All in all flyers not in bad shape at all in terms of long term deals.

As far as benefit of the doubt, not the word I would use though I will take a wait and see approach. He has been just ok so far. That wont be good enough going forward. I just do no believe that having co GM's will work.

Depends on what they see. So in other words they could be convinced to buy if they are in the playoff "mix" come January or so. They will not stick to any real rebuild. If they do then God bless.

They are trying to win to some extent as Danny has said that. The fact they didn't sign any good free agents is not a sign they are rebuilding in any way. One is they didn't have the money to give out any long term deals. Two no one (all things being equal) is coming to this team/franchise at this time unless they are over paid severely.

 

[renberg]

you could still "blow" it up with those 4 contracts. All in all flyers not in bad shape at all in terms of long term deals.

As far as benefit of the doubt, not the word I would use though I will take a wait and see approach. He has been just ok so far. That wont be good enough going forward. I just do no believe that having co GM's will work.

Depends on what they see. So in other words they could be convinced to buy if they are in the playoff "mix" come January or so. They will not stick to any real rebuild. If they do then God bless.

They are trying to win to some extent as Danny has said that. The fact they didn't sign any good free agents is not a sign they are rebuilding in any way. One is they didn't have the money to give out any long term deals. Two no one (all things being equal) is coming to this team/franchise at this time unless they are over paid severely.

I could support signing Hathaway and Staal if Laughton and Seeler were being moved out. That way younger players would not get blocked from PT.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I could support signing Hathaway and Staal if Laughton and Seeler were being moved out. That way younger players would not get blocked from PT.

it could def be justified. Don't have to like it but makes sense somewhat.

ND and GH are both no needed. GH clearly a much better player. Stuck with ND for the duration.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So far, Briere has earned the benefit of the doubt.

Why?

He's not even doing what you want. And you gave Fletcher the benefit of the doubt until...hell, you still do.

 

[deadhead]

ND is moveable next summer, and at the TDL if he waives his NTC to join a PO team.

If somehow they're a playoff team this year, it means a bunch of kids stepped up, if you couldn't win with G and Voracek and Couts in 2020 you're not winning with Couts and Atkinson in 2023, not without Farabee, TK, Frost, York, Cates, Tippett, Foerster, Zamula et al playing at a high level. Staal, Seeler and Hathaway are not going to make you a playoff team. And if that miracle happens, the Flyers have somehow developed a bunch of young top six forwards and top four defensemen and the rebuild should be over with Gauthier and Michkov already in the pipeline.

Realistically they show some improvement, some kids step up and they pick around #10. After picking up a few more picks at the TDL and maybe trading someone like Laughton if Lycksell or Brink or Desnoyers step up and make him expendable.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

ND is moveable next summer, and at the TDL if he waives his NTC to join a PO team.

If somehow they're a playoff team this year, it means a bunch of kids stepped up, if you couldn't win with G and Voracek and Couts in 2020 you're not winning with Couts and Atkinson in 2023, not without Farabee, TK, Frost, York, Cates, Tippett, Foerster, Zamula et al playing at a high level. Staal, Seeler and Hathaway are not going to make you a playoff team. And if that miracle happens, the Flyers have somehow developed a bunch of young top six forwards and top four defensemen and the rebuild should be over with Gauthier and Michkov already in the pipeline.

Realistically they show some improvement, some kids step up and they pick around #10. After picking up a few more picks at the TDL and maybe trading someone like Laughton if Lycksell or Brink or Desnoyers step up and make him expendable.

no he is not. He is not a good NHL player now. No team is taking thay bad contract on without sending one equally as bad back.

Define winning for the Flyers. Winning to them is a playoff spot right now.

Also please stop with the Ollie talk. They do not see him as an NHL regular. Not even really on the radar.

 

[deadhead]

no he is not. He is not a good NHL player now. No team is taking thay bad contract on without sending one equally as bad back.

Define winning for the Flyers. Winning to them is a playoff spot right now.

Also please stop with the Ollie talk. They do not see him as an NHL regular. Not even really on the radar.

ND was traded for a 3rd the spring before we signed him,
PO teams value someone like him, right or wrong.

 

[Curufinwe]

Oh great, we get to retain on Nicky D as well as Hayesy.

 

[Beef Invictus]

ND is moveable next summer, and at the TDL if he waives his NTC to join a PO team.

If somehow they're a playoff team this year, it means a bunch of kids stepped up, if you couldn't win with G and Voracek and Couts in 2020 you're not winning with Couts and Atkinson in 2023, not without Farabee, TK, Frost, York, Cates, Tippett, Foerster, Zamula et al playing at a high level. Staal, Seeler and Hathaway are not going to make you a playoff team. And if that miracle happens, the Flyers have somehow developed a bunch of young top six forwards and top four defensemen and the rebuild should be over with Gauthier and Michkov already in the pipeline.

Realistically they show some improvement, some kids step up and they pick around #10. After picking up a few more picks at the TDL and maybe trading someone like Laughton if Lycksell or Brink or Desnoyers step up and make him expendable.

1) Briere isn't admitting his guy was a mistake
2) No good playoff team wants a bad player. They're trying to get better.

 

[freakydallas13]

"Nicky D is movable next year", is the latest iteration of "Hayes at 4 million is a bargain".