2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[Hollywood Cannon]

I too like to say that things that go against my arguments don't actually exist.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

That's not a risky offer for you to make. By their very nature, trade rumors are not concrete. The report was from Frank Seravalli, on his podcast; if you want to know more, you'll need to look that up, but here's a tweet reiterating the details he mentioned:

disgrace to turn that down. What more could you possibly want? That just shows you they have zero interest in trading him at this time.

They are all smiles knowing couturier and Cam will be back. They are no doubt thinking #8 seed.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Yes, we've already covered this. You are eager to sell low on Laughton + co. to achieve an arbitrary amount of "minimum draft picks" acquired in Year Zero and are willingly swallowing Jonesy's propaganda leaks to confirm your bias.

You yourself have admitted that Tortorella hates skill and thinks its bad for the game. Why would a hyper-talented, Michigan-scoring prodigy not fit into that mindset of Tortorella hating skill? You're bouncing from generalized "Torts hates skilled players and thinks they're bad for the game" platitudes to "I need an exact quote of Torts denouncing Michkov as proof that he thinks skilled players are bad for the game." Your argument is untenable.

You're wasting your breath. You're arguing with the same people that say the Flyers hate youth and small players despite regularly playing young guys and small guys (and sometimes small young guys) because they also sometimes play veterans instead of young guys or big guys instead of small guys. That's the HFBoards way...everything is black and white except when it isn't and then the "bad" stuff is the real truth and the "good" stuff is just by accident or is taking place under protest.

 

[tnfrs]

That's not a risky offer for you to make. By their very nature, trade rumors are not concrete. The report was from Frank Seravalli, on his podcast; if you want to know more, you'll need to look that up, but here's a tweet reiterating the details he mentioned:

ya ive seen that pic too but that twitter account isnt exactly an insider, anything from Seravalli's account to confirm? Theres been guys on twitter swearing all week last week we were gonna sign Rizzo so i dont have a lot of faith that @flyersinsider heard the whole convo

 

[JojoTheWhale]

IIHF - IIHF sanctions Ivan Fedotov and CSKA Hockey Club

The International Ice Hockey Federation has reviewed the contracts entered into by Ivan Fedotov ...

www.iihf.com

Well, that’s interesting.

 

[Redpath]

It's all downside to claim a hard date they don't believe in. Setting the team up for failure should have been a thing immediately corrected if it wasn't meant sincerely. On top of that their actions confirm it. Why trade the valuable players when you think you'll need them? Why not cater to the coach you made face of the franchise when you believe he will be here when it turns around? They aren't thinking long-term at all.

Yes. I am indeed eager to see the rebuild begin on a proper timeline. I'm tired of half measures and wasting talent. I'm tired of the same thing over and over.

None of this has to do with selling low on trade assets out of impatience.

Prove Tortorella was running the draft. That he even cared enough to provide any real say. He couldn't even be bothered to show up

Why are they catering to him in literally every other thing they've done? Why do you have tunnel vision on this one single thing he ended up being detached from?

You're proving my point. The guy that is supposedly being built around didn't even provide real say or show up to the draft, on top of his public beliefs about hockey being defied on the franchise's largest decision of the season.

"Why do you have you tunnel vision on this one single thing he ended up being detached from?" I repeat again, because that one single thing is is exponentially more important and longer-term than the things he was "catered" on

Look man you're the one making specific claims about Tortorella without proof. I'm sorry that Tortorella said and did the things he said and did, and that's why I make that claim. It's not my claim, it's Tortorella's own. Maybe you should try believing him and stop making up deadheadesque fanfiction about him to pretend everything is different. You're clinging to one action and ignoring everything else. If an addict drinks for five straight days, most people wouldn't look to one sober moment six days prior to say "hey it's fine." That's the equivalent of what you're doing.

You are trying to maintain a lie in your head that "Tortorella hates skill and wants it out of the game, he said so!" but also "It is fan-ficiton that Tortorella presumably hates skilled, Michigan-scoring Michkov." Which is strange, because in all other scenarios where it wouldn't be proving your theory incorrect, I'm sure you'd agree with and would be complaining about.

I'm "clinging" the most most important decision of the offseason. It vastly outweighs signing Staal+Poehling+Hathaway. I'm flattering you by pretending these decisions are even in the same stratosphere.

 

[ponder719]

ya ive seen that pic too but that twitter account isnt exactly an insider, anything from Seravalli's account to confirm? Theres been guys on twitter swearing all week last week we were gonna sign Rizzo so i dont have a lot of faith that @flyersinsider heard the whole convo

It's a report from Seravalli's podcast. He records them and posts them online. If you want to hear Seravalli say it, you can listen to it. The tweet even tells you what day's podcast to listen to. This has nothing to do with taking Flyers Nation's word for it (and who is @flyersinsider, and what do they have to do with the price of fish?)

 

[Redpath]

Sell low on Laughton? Weren't they offered at least a first rounder for him? Someone should have packed his bags and dropped him off at the airport for that deal. As a rebuilding team, that's a deal you take every time, but they aren't truly rebuilding like they say they are

That rumored deal came from, what, one person? In a summer where 1sts were hardly moved? (And when they were, for players better than Laughton) In a summer where our front office was blatantly leaking? Weeks after our comms-oriented President was touted for his connections around the league?

The rumored Laughton offer has all the makings of bait more than definitive proof of some offer that we declined.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That rumored deal came from, what, one person? In a summer where 1sts were hardly moved? (And when they were, for players better than Laughton) In a summer where our front office was blatantly leaking? Weeks after our comms-oritented President was touted for his connections around the league?

The rumored Laughton offer has all the makings of bait more than definitive proof of some offer that we declined.

I really don’t care about Month Three of your conversation with Beef, but the mental hoops you’re for some reason jumping through to ignore a direct report from an extremely credible source are just weird. Seravalli being willing to go on the record with specifics of an offer is a significantly different event from the normal rumors. If this was some morning show on a sports talk radio station, of course we should start looking for holes. This clearly wasn’t.

And it’s not just you. You just happen to be the most recent. It’s like people take these rumors personally.

 

[VladDrag]

Ignoring? I just mentioned the short-term signings (Staal, Poehling, Hathaway, etc.) in my last post. The things that are being done to cater to Tortorella are far, far, far less important than the major thing done in spite of Tortorella.

You still haven't answered why Tortorella's wishes were ignored on the most major decision of the off-season and long-term. Why do you think that was?

Torts has been able to get away with, quite literally, not doing his job at the most fundamental level - coach the actual team at the end of last season.

They got rid of two players this offseason specifically because they didn't get along with the head coach. And he completely tanked their value by having public spats with these two players. Now, sure you can argue that those two players don't move the needle, and getting rid of them makes the team better. I don't know if I would completely agree with that, but I can understand the argument.

But, those two things alone are gigantic red flags, and saying they are not important, to me, is insane.

What happens if Torts gets into it with an actual quality player, say York or Farabee, where things have already been leaked that something happened? MGMT has already sided with Torts. And let's not forget, MGMT/marketing pimped the hell out of Hayes when he was brought in. All it took was the coach to tell MGMT to get rid of him, and he did.

The fact that Torts is even involved in ANY personnel discussions is troubling. He shouldn't be, he's the coach, not the GM. And while, I'm on the topic of GM/President, let's also not forget that the GM and the President were both hired because they were okay with keeping Torts as the coach. And if I recall correctly, certain prospective GM's actually withdrew or were not asked to an interview because they didn't have control of the coaching staff (admittedly, my memory might not be 100% correct on this point, so if someone corrects me here, I'll edit this post).

But to say that the things that have been done to cater to Torts are less important, is not true.

 

[FlyerNutter]

What’s this mystical deal we are holding out for to trade our Dodge Caravan.

Draft 5-10 for 3 years and call it a rebuild. The Flyer way

 

[tnfrs]

It's a report from Seravalli's podcast. He records them and posts them online. If you want to hear Seravalli say it, you can listen to it. The tweet even tells you what day's podcast to listen to. This has nothing to do with taking Flyers Nation's word for it (and who is @flyersinsider, and what do they have to do with the price of fish?)

@flyersinsider @flyersnation lol same shit i dont really care if I got the name right. and I listened to the podcast, he mentions he heard that danny had been talking to st louis and that they might have offered a late rd pick and a 2nd but he wasnt sure if it was 25 or 29, and he doesnt sound like it was an actual offer just someone else's speculation, so its 3rd hand info by the time seravalli says it in passing and @flyersinsider ran with it. its not really a smoking gun if frankie wasnt even told the pick that was included. this is a dont believe everything you hear moment.

I really don’t care about Month Three of your conversation with Beef, but the mental hoops you’re for some reason jumping through to ignore a direct report from an extremely credible source are just weird. Seravalli being willing to go on the record with specifics of an offer is a significantly different event from the normal rumors. If this was some morning show on a sports talk radio station, of course we should start looking for holes. This clearly wasn’t.

And it’s not just you. You just happen to be the most recent. It’s like people take these rumors personally.

it wasnt a direct report, it was a mention that frank made in the last minute of his podcast one time and was never confirmed anywhere else by anyone else, it wasnt a breaking news report that he did. he didnt even know which pick was being offered, it was just something he heard from someone who heard from someone and he mentioned in passing

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Its getting boring with all the back and forth. Time for the season to start. So lets share some nice pictures from our private lifes. My 2 year old and my 10 year old. Who is who?

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

IIHF - IIHF sanctions Ivan Fedotov and CSKA Hockey Club

The International Ice Hockey Federation has reviewed the contracts entered into by Ivan Fedotov ...

www.iihf.com

Well, that’s interesting.

I give it 12 hours before Russia just says "f*** you" and just doesn't listen to them in the end.

 

[Redpath]

Torts has been able to get away with, quite literally, not doing his job at the most fundamental level - coach the actual team at the end of last season.

They got rid of two players this offseason specifically because they didn't get along with the head coach. And he completely tanked their value by having public spats with these two players. Now, sure you can argue that those two players don't move the needle, and getting rid of them makes the team better. I don't know if I would completely agree with that, but I can understand the argument.

But, those two things alone are gigantic red flags, and saying they are not important, to me, is insane.

What happens if Torts gets into it with an actual quality player, say York or Farabee, where things have already been leaked that something happened? MGMT has already sided with Torts. And let's not forget, MGMT/marketing pimped the hell out of Hayes when he was brought in. All it took was the coach to tell MGMT to get rid of him, and he did.

The fact that Torts is even involved in ANY personnel discussions is troubling. He shouldn't be, he's the coach, not the GM. And while, I'm on the topic of GM/President, let's also not forget that the GM and the President were both hired because they were okay with keeping Torts as the coach. And if I recall correctly, certain prospective GM's actually withdrew or were not asked to an interview because they didn't have control of the coaching staff (admittedly, my memory might not be 100% correct on this point, so if someone corrects me here, I'll edit this post).

But to say that the things that have been done to cater to Torts are less important, is not true.

Hayes+Provorov+DeAngelo were all questionable players who should have been moved regardless of the coach. That Tortorella also agrees with that assessment does not mean that we should deny his agreement on principle.

Hayes went for the market value of what big money contracts went for the summer: ~Nothing

DeAngelo, after years of building his reputation, seemingly has a market of one.

Why wasn't Provorov's value killed?

Your York/Farabee example only proves the point that management won't side with him on actually good, young, important players. Otherwise why wasn't Torts' anger for Farabee and York "catered" to this summer?

I don't like Torts. I don't like that he had input on signing Staal+co. I want Briere to fire him and get a coach who won't pick fights with Sanheim, York, Farabee, etc. But pretending that the Staal + co. signings that he was catered on are not less important than drafting Michkov is asinine.

 

[deadhead]

Who do you think was behind the Ghost and Vorecek trades?
What HC doesn't have influence over personnel decisions? One with no pull (Hakstol) or one soon out the door.
And Briere has made it clear he wants to weed out payers they don't think belong on a future playoff team.

We know Hayes had no value regardless of Torts, b/c similar players were bought out or traded for peanuts. The market spoke.
We know TDA had no value, b/c no team even approached him after the Flyers bought him out and he accepted $1.6M.

The idea Torts hates skill is stupid, based on a TV comment on a fancy play, not on his actual history.
If Torts hates skill, Atkinson should have lobbied against hiring Torts.
What Torts hates are skilled players with an entitlement attitude: "Defense, I don't play no stinkin' defense."

There's no evidence that Torts lobbied to draft specific players, his input, if any, seems to be the qualities he wants in players.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

None of this has to do with selling low on trade assets out of impatience.



You're proving my point. The guy that is supposedly being built around didn't even provide real say or show up to the draft, on top of his public beliefs about hockey being defied on the franchise's largest decision of the season.

"Why do you have you tunnel vision on this one single thing he ended up being detached from?" I repeat again, because that one single thing is is exponentially more important and longer-term than the things he was "catered" on



You are trying to maintain a lie in your head that "Tortorella hates skill and wants it out of the game, he said so!" but also "It is fan-ficiton that Tortorella presumably hates skilled, Michigan-scoring Michkov." Which is strange, because in all other scenarios where it wouldn't be proving your theory incorrect, I'm sure you'd agree with and would be complaining about.

I'm "clinging" the most most important decision of the offseason. It vastly outweighs signing Staal+Poehling+Hathaway. I'm flattering you by pretending these decisions are even in the same stratosphere.

has he even said this, or did he say the Michigan play is bad and wants it out (something to that effect).

I would love to see a quote where he said he wants those type of players out of the game.

 

[Redpath]

has he even said this, or did he say the Michigan play is bad and wants it out (something to that effect).

I would love to see a quote where he said he wants those type of players out of the game.

You should check with Beef on that one

 

[renberg]

I give it 12 hours before Russia just says "f*** you" and just doesn't listen to them in the end.

Putin will just not allow him to leave Russia; end of story. A thing that I don't understand is why Fedotov, who was born in Finland, just doesn't slip out of Russia and declare Finnish citizenship? That would put all of this mess behind him.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Putin will just not allow him to leave Russia; end of story. A thing that I don't understand is why Fedotov, who was born in Finland, just doesn't slip out of Russia and declare Finnish citizenship? That would put all of this mess behind him.

Not in this day and age. He is watched closely for sure. You cant think that the russians let him slip through their fingers.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This is pointless. Everyone eager to ignore everything is going to get proven wrong like they always do. I'll just wait for it to inevitably happen, like it always does.

 

[gertbfrobe16]

Insert gif of uncle Rico throwing beef steak and hitting Napolean in the face

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Integrated Performance Analyst - Philadelphia Flyers

The StandardAt Comcast Spectacor, we strive to win championships, deliver the best fan experience in sports and entertainment, and serve as a unifying force for the community. It matters how we get there. There is a standard. *Dedicated - W...

www.teamworkonline.com

 

[VladDrag]

Hayes+Provorov+DeAngelo were all questionable players who should have been moved regardless of the coach. That Tortorella also agree with that assessment does not mean that we should deny his agreement on principle.

Hayes went for the market value of what big money contracts went for the summer: ~Nothing

DeAngelo, after years of building his reputation, seemingly has a market of one.

Why wasn't Provorov's value killed?

Your York/Farabee example only proves the point that management won't side with him on actually good, young, important players. Otherwise why wasn't Torts' anger for Farabee and York "catered" to this summer?

I don't like Torts. I don't like that he had input on signing Staal+co. I want Briere to fire him and get a coach who won't pick fights with Sanheim, York, Farabee, etc. But pretending that the Staal + co. signings that he was catered on are not less important than drafting Michkov is asinine.

I guess we're just at different chapters of the same book. If you feel like Torts should be fired, we're in agreement there. I would also say that the signings that catered to Torts are less important that drafting Michkov. I don't think Beef is fighting you there, either (I also don't know that Torts didn't want them to draft Michkov, either. Maybe it's been reported, and I just missed that).

But I would also say it feel like you're glancing over a pattern that has been set by this organization in the moves they've made so far. They have have given Torts more power than most NHL coaches generally get. Whether you want to agree or not, TDA, Hayes, Provy were all moved out this year because of Torts. It's not that Torts agreed with the move, he was the reason why they were moved. Having to move someone because the coach wants him gone is a bad process. It doesn't matter what the market is at the time of the trade. And it's a self induced problem, brought on by the coach. You can say it's good that we got rid of him, but it doesn't change that it was a bad trade or not. It just doesn't.

I don't know if Farabee or York asked for a trade, and I suspect neither do you. And because of that I don't think you can compare the situation of TDA/Hayes/Provy and the situation of York/Farabee and come to meaningful conclusions. I would hope that MGMT would side on the younger players and not the outdated coach, but they haven't done that yet.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I guess we're just at different chapters of the same book. If you feel like Torts should be fired, we're in agreement there. I would also say that the signings that catered to Torts are less important that drafting Michkov. I don't think Beef is fighting you there, either (I also don't know that Torts didn't want them to draft Michkov, either. Maybe it's been reported, and I just missed that).

But I would also say it feel like you're glancing over a pattern that has been set by this organization in the moves they've made so far. They have have given Torts more power than most NHL coaches generally get. Whether you want to agree or not, TDA, Hayes, Provy were all moved out this year because of Torts. It's not that Torts agreed with the move, he was the reason why they were moved. Having to move someone because the coach wants him gone is a bad process. It doesn't matter what the market is at the time of the trade. And it's a self induced problem, brought on by the coach. You can say it's good that we got rid of him, but it doesn't change that it was a bad trade or not. It just doesn't.

I don't know if Farabee or York asked for a trade, and I suspect neither do you. And because of that I don't think you can compare the situation of TDA/Hayes/Provy and the situation of York/Farabee and come to meaningful conclusions. I would hope that MGMT would side on the younger players and not the outdated coach, but they haven't done that yet.

That isnt true.