2023-24 Roster Thread 1: Entering the Starting Gate

[deadhead]

Players are not going to trash their coach management or their teammates in public . People on here thinking they will or are are morons .

Right. It never happens.

When a starting caliber player is unhappy with a HC his agent soon starts leaking stories, hoping to push management into moving his player to greener pastures. Happens all the time.

Now marginal players with few options, that's a different story.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Poulin is almost assuredly the very worst -- and that's saying something. He was a disciple of the Burke/Nonis group that torpedoed the Leafs to a similar point in which the Flyers find themselves now. Screams smart rebuild. He hasn't worked in a front office in a decade, and he was a decade behind the times the last time he did. He's a terrible commentator. He was a bad college coach. There's not one single positive thing to which you could point. Worst of all, it would hurt Cap's heart to see another hero tarnished.

At least with Wilson you could say he built that Sharks team from the ground up for a decade and a half of real contending. There was a lot of sustainable good. His core aged out, it ran its course, he bled assets at the end, but none of that is necessarily unforgivable as a next-stop PoHO. That team fell out of contending naturally. Even his last acquisitions like Karlsson were bets on league best talent. Is he just at the Poile(ing) point where he's over the hill? Maybe. I'm rationalizing the least bad option -- with zero Flyers connections -- here.

The fact the Flyers want a PR-type more than a manager but with "hockey knowledge," who also won't step on God Emperor Tortorella's toes, which tells me they don't really know what they want. It's mixed messaging, per usual. And it sounds less tempting a job opening than some people make out. That's why we're being fed the names of has-beens and never-was's.

If the Flyers are going to go the retool route once again, a torpedo might not be the worst thing. Maybe even a blessing in disguise. All in all it’s hard to get a firm answer what the Flyers want to do. Everyone knows they should clearly rebuild but we’ll find out this summer

 

[Curufinwe]

JVR had a better 5on5 GF% than Cates. Weird.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[wasup]

JVR had a better 5on5 GF% than Cates. Weird.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Not really one was feed top mins praised at every turn and put in every possible position to exceed and the other one was not . I will leave that up to you to guess which one that was .

Oh wait what that can't be , it must be fake analytics , Flyers will have the correct ones .

 

[VladDrag]

O'Connor wrote an article today talking about the 4 rumored candidates (Shero, Wilson, Mellanby, Poulin), and it felt like the "This is Fine" meme.

He was also weirdly complimentary of Shero in the article/comments, writing shit like this:


View attachment 697136

He didn't. Sullivan wasn't even hired as an AHL coach until the year after Shero was canned. He didn't even hire Johnston. Charlie just totally mixed up Shero and Rutherford's tenure. Shero made 3 coaching hires in his managerial career. He re-signed Therrien, replaced him with Bylsma (6 years), and in Jersey hired Hynes (5 years). That's it. He also never mentioned the Fletcher connection, where Fletcher was AGM/advisor to Shero in Pittsburgh and Jersey. When you really dive into his career, you realize what a totally mediocre HockeyGuy™ he is. Inheriting generational talents, lottery ball luck, and an ability to unshackle 2 Cup contenders immediately upon his absence -- that is Ray Shero.

I rather dislike the way Charlie talks with other people online. He acts like a know-it-all. He certainly smells his own farts.

 

[bennysflyers16]

It may just get worse !!

 

[Rebels57]

It may just get worse !!

Usually does.

 

[trostol]

feel free to move this..was torn between this and another thread...its um..interesting

https://thehockeynews.com/news/nhl-gm-candidates-choices-for-the-flames-penguins-and-flyers

 

[VladDrag]

Charlie's article in the athletic today discusses what he would do with the RFA's. He said he'd go long-term on both York and Cates. Said he still needs to see more from Frost to give him a long term deal. I suspect that's what the Flyers would like to do as well. He thinks he won't score enough to be more than a 3C. I think anyone who sees it like that is purposefully looking at it that way.

Frost scored 36 points at 5v5 this year, totaling about 2.02 points per 60 minutes at 5v5. That ranks him tied for 99th (347 total forwards), putting him in the top 30% of forwards in total points per 60. Going solely on ranking position, which I don't like to do because it's somewhat arbitrary, he's already scoring at near top line levels (32*3=96 forwards). I've said this before, he was not given the best offensive wingers at 5v5.

However, when he's played with TK, their xGF/60 is 3.27 and xGF% is 53.05, but without TK the numbers are 2.26 and 47.10%. TK's xGF/60 and xGF% without Frost is 2.56 and his xGF% is 45.46%. It is mutually beneficial for those two to play together, and it took like 75 games for that to actually happen somewhat consistently. Lets pretend Frost was given Cates' deployment where he was given 400 minutes with TK. Frost is going to score anywhere from 2-5 more points during that time. That takes him from 36 to 38-41 points over the season at 5v5. This isn't Frost getting better, it's just using him with other offensive talent.

Further, he had 5 PP points (1G, 4A), while being used in the bumper and even net front at times. This is a woefully awful way to use the forward with the best vision on the team. This coaching staff has been suppressing Frost with suboptimal deployment all year. If they used him correctly this year, and actually played him with other elite talent, I gotta believe he scores 3-7 more power play points. Again, That's just using him correctly, no additional development, not getting better, just being used properly...And by the way, Remember when Charlie made up some bullshit about Giroux's PP scoring, saying it wasn't usage, but that Giroux's skill was decreasing...Guess what, this year Giroux PP points/60 increased back to his average around 16-17 and 17-18.

You add those extra 5 to 12 more points this year, and Frost ends up with 51-58 points this season....We saw him finish the last 60 games on a 60 point pace. There's no reason to believe that's not possible, if given better usage. The only way he doesn't produce next season is if he's not given the opportunity to do so. His entire history proves he's a very good, offensive producer, and to bet against that, particularly after the season he had given those variables above, is crazy.

To me, if I had to choose one player between Frost, Cates, and York to go long term, it's Frost, and it's not particularly close in my mind.

 

[Starat327]

Go Long term on the defensive specialist with limited offensive upside on his breakout season. Don't long term the offensive catalyst before his breakout season.

Flyers hockey, baby.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Did JVR & Cates play the same position & go head-to-head against the same competition?

I don’t know how anyone could insinuate that JVR’s 5 v 5 GF% means he was a more effective player than Noah Cates this season.

The idea is asinine. These stats aren’t player rating systems & can’t be compared in a vacuum.

JVR. Apparently the best player on the team. SMH.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sad for Frost that he already peaked as a player in his first full NHL season.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Charlie's article in the athletic today discusses what he would do with the RFA's. He said he'd go long-term on both York and Cates. Said he still needs to see more from Frost to give him a long term deal. I suspect that's what the Flyers would like to do as well. He thinks he won't score enough to be more than a 3C. I think anyone who sees it like that is purposefully looking at it that way.

Frost scored 36 points at 5v5 this year, totaling about 2.02 points per 60 minutes at 5v5. That ranks him tied for 99th (347 total forwards), putting him in the top 30% of forwards in total points per 60. Going solely on ranking position, which I don't like to do because it's somewhat arbitrary, he's already scoring at near top line levels (32*3=96 forwards). I've said this before, he was not given the best offensive wingers at 5v5.

However, when he's played with TK, their xGF/60 is 3.27 and xGF% is 53.05, but without TK the numbers are 2.26 and 47.10%. TK's xGF/60 and xGF% without Frost is 2.56 and his xGF% is 45.46%. It is mutually beneficial for those two to play together, and it took like 75 games for that to actually happen somewhat consistently. Lets pretend Frost was given Cates' deployment where he was given 400 minutes with TK. Frost is going to score anywhere from 2-5 more points during that time. That takes him from 36 to 38-41 points over the season at 5v5. This isn't Frost getting better, it's just using him with other offensive talent.

Further, he had 5 PP points (1G, 4A), while being used in the bumper and even net front at times. This is a woefully awful way to use the forward with the best vision on the team. This coaching staff has been suppressing Frost with suboptimal deployment all year. If they used him correctly this year, and actually played him with other elite talent, I gotta believe he scores 3-7 more power play points. Again, That's just using him correctly, no additional development, not getting better, just being used properly...And by the way, Remember when Charlie made up some bullshit about Giroux's PP scoring, saying it wasn't usage, but that Giroux's skill was decreasing...Guess what, this year Giroux PP points/60 increased back to his average around 16-17 and 17-18.

You add those extra 5 to 12 more points this year, and Frost ends up with 51-58 points this season....We saw him finish the last 60 games on a 60 point pace. There's no reason to believe that's not possible, if given better usage. The only way he doesn't produce next season is if he's not given the opportunity to do so. His entire history proves he's a very good, offensive producer, and to bet against that, particularly after the season he had given those variables above, is crazy.

To me, if I had to choose one player between Frost, Cates, and York to go long term, it's Frost, and it's not particularly close in my mind.

It’s Provorov vs Sanheim all over again.

 

[BillDineen]

Charlie's article in the athletic today discusses what he would do with the RFA's. He said he'd go long-term on both York and Cates. Said he still needs to see more from Frost to give him a long term deal. I suspect that's what the Flyers would like to do as well. He thinks he won't score enough to be more than a 3C. I think anyone who sees it like that is purposefully looking at it that way.

Frost scored 36 points at 5v5 this year, totaling about 2.02 points per 60 minutes at 5v5. That ranks him tied for 99th (347 total forwards), putting him in the top 30% of forwards in total points per 60. Going solely on ranking position, which I don't like to do because it's somewhat arbitrary, he's already scoring at near top line levels (32*3=96 forwards). I've said this before, he was not given the best offensive wingers at 5v5.

However, when he's played with TK, their xGF/60 is 3.27 and xGF% is 53.05, but without TK the numbers are 2.26 and 47.10%. TK's xGF/60 and xGF% without Frost is 2.56 and his xGF% is 45.46%. It is mutually beneficial for those two to play together, and it took like 75 games for that to actually happen somewhat consistently. Lets pretend Frost was given Cates' deployment where he was given 400 minutes with TK. Frost is going to score anywhere from 2-5 more points during that time. That takes him from 36 to 38-41 points over the season at 5v5. This isn't Frost getting better, it's just using him with other offensive talent.

Further, he had 5 PP points (1G, 4A), while being used in the bumper and even net front at times. This is a woefully awful way to use the forward with the best vision on the team. This coaching staff has been suppressing Frost with suboptimal deployment all year. If they used him correctly this year, and actually played him with other elite talent, I gotta believe he scores 3-7 more power play points. Again, That's just using him correctly, no additional development, not getting better, just being used properly...And by the way, Remember when Charlie made up some bullshit about Giroux's PP scoring, saying it wasn't usage, but that Giroux's skill was decreasing...Guess what, this year Giroux PP points/60 increased back to his average around 16-17 and 17-18.

You add those extra 5 to 12 more points this year, and Frost ends up with 51-58 points this season....We saw him finish the last 60 games on a 60 point pace. There's no reason to believe that's not possible, if given better usage. The only way he doesn't produce next season is if he's not given the opportunity to do so. His entire history proves he's a very good, offensive producer, and to bet against that, particularly after the season he had given those variables above, is crazy.

To me, if I had to choose one player between Frost, Cates, and York to go long term, it's Frost, and it's not particularly close in my mind.

Charlier O'Wronger has had a blind spot with Frost for a while. Even Meltzer has seen his potential.

 

[BernieParent]

If asked to pick among York, Cates, and Frost for a long-term contract, I would pick York. I wouldn't want to give either Cates or Frost a long-term deal given the available contract options. I'd prefer 3 years for each. Cates, though, is arbitration eligible, which gives him more power in his next deal.

 

[FLYguy3911]

If asked to pick among York, Cates, and Frost for a long-term contract, I would pick York. I wouldn't want to give either Cates or Frost a long-term deal given the available contract options. I'd prefer 3 years for each. Cates, though, is arbitration eligible, which gives him more power in his next deal.

Are you trying to kill me with more 3 year bridge deals, Bern?

 

[deadhead]

I would go York first, Cates second, Frost third.
But it also depends on the money.
Frost has more upside than Cates, but also more downside, he still goes MIA for long stretches.

Things will shake out the next couple years, we don't know if TK will be traded or extended, whether Gauthier will be LW or center, which line Foerster will play on and whether Brink can take the next step up.

 

[VladDrag]

I would go York first, Cates second, Frost third.
But it also depends on the money.
Frost has more upside than Cates, but also more downside, he still goes MIA for long stretches.

Things will shake out the next couple years, we don't know if TK will be traded or extended, whether Gauthier will be LW or center, which line Foerster will play on and whether Brink can take the next step up.

Can you please elaborate why Frost had more downside ?

 

[Curufinwe]

I once read that ZMac was better offensively than MFro.

 

[BernieParent]

Are you trying to kill me with more 3 year bridge deals, Bern?

 

[Starat327]

Can you please elaborate why Frost had more downside ?

Why would you do this.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Charlie's article in the athletic today discusses what he would do with the RFA's. He said he'd go long-term on both York and Cates. Said he still needs to see more from Frost to give him a long term deal. I suspect that's what the Flyers would like to do as well. He thinks he won't score enough to be more than a 3C. I think anyone who sees it like that is purposefully looking at it that way.

Frost scored 36 points at 5v5 this year, totaling about 2.02 points per 60 minutes at 5v5. That ranks him tied for 99th (347 total forwards), putting him in the top 30% of forwards in total points per 60. Going solely on ranking position, which I don't like to do because it's somewhat arbitrary, he's already scoring at near top line levels (32*3=96 forwards). I've said this before, he was not given the best offensive wingers at 5v5.

However, when he's played with TK, their xGF/60 is 3.27 and xGF% is 53.05, but without TK the numbers are 2.26 and 47.10%. TK's xGF/60 and xGF% without Frost is 2.56 and his xGF% is 45.46%. It is mutually beneficial for those two to play together, and it took like 75 games for that to actually happen somewhat consistently. Lets pretend Frost was given Cates' deployment where he was given 400 minutes with TK. Frost is going to score anywhere from 2-5 more points during that time. That takes him from 36 to 38-41 points over the season at 5v5. This isn't Frost getting better, it's just using him with other offensive talent.

Further, he had 5 PP points (1G, 4A), while being used in the bumper and even net front at times. This is a woefully awful way to use the forward with the best vision on the team. This coaching staff has been suppressing Frost with suboptimal deployment all year. If they used him correctly this year, and actually played him with other elite talent, I gotta believe he scores 3-7 more power play points. Again, That's just using him correctly, no additional development, not getting better, just being used properly...And by the way, Remember when Charlie made up some bullshit about Giroux's PP scoring, saying it wasn't usage, but that Giroux's skill was decreasing...Guess what, this year Giroux PP points/60 increased back to his average around 16-17 and 17-18.

You add those extra 5 to 12 more points this year, and Frost ends up with 51-58 points this season....We saw him finish the last 60 games on a 60 point pace. There's no reason to believe that's not possible, if given better usage. The only way he doesn't produce next season is if he's not given the opportunity to do so. His entire history proves he's a very good, offensive producer, and to bet against that, particularly after the season he had given those variables above, is crazy.

To me, if I had to choose one player between Frost, Cates, and York to go long term, it's Frost, and it's not particularly close in my mind.

He's pushing the company line on Frost. Anyone around the league who wants to rip us off just has to read our media to see which good players the team hates and then they can rip us off for them.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Did JVR & Cates play the same position & go head-to-head against the same competition?

I don’t know how anyone could insinuate that JVR’s 5 v 5 GF% means he was a more effective player than Noah Cates this season.

The idea is asinine. These stats aren’t player rating systems & can’t be compared in a vacuum.

JVR. Apparently the best player on the team. SMH.

You don't have to lie about what people claim. Nobody said he's the best player on the team.

QoC isn't nearly as important as usage and linemates. JVR is completely wasted in Tortorella hockey, and JVR was fully bought in. Basically every offensive player is. Basically every player in general is, because he plays dead hockey.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Can you please elaborate why Frost had more downside ?

Tortorella says so, therefore that is what he believes.

 

[BernieParent]

Are you trying to kill me with more 3 year bridge deals, Bern?

But seriously, @FLYguy3911, would you go 5+ years? I don't know from where Charlie O pulled the $4-5 million (reports or anatomically), but I think that is ridiculously high for either of them.