2023-24 Roster Thread 1: Entering the Starting Gate

[Fire Tortorella]

Can you please elaborate why Frost had more downside ?

Defense only no offense is acceptable.

Theoretical offense only no defense BAD.

 

[Beef Invictus]

My favorite part of the season was when Tortorella had shat upon Frost again while gushing about Cates, and at the time Frost was having better defensive results and massively better offensive results.

It tells you all you need to know about their evaluation skills. This team is doomed until every aspect of how they approach their sport is completely changed for the opposite.

 

[FLYguy3911]

But seriously, @FLYguy3911, would you go 5+ years? I don't know from where Charlie O pulled the $4-5 million (reports or anatomically), but I think that is ridiculously high for either of them.

I can't comprehend NHL contracts right now, but I will say they should use their cap space during "rebuilding" years to absorb long term cap hits for players they believe are long term pieces *gulp*. You either bridge because you aren't sure of the player or because you need the cap space to build a competitive roster. The second part should be off the table until further notice.

I've been vocal in the past of my hate of 3 year bridge deals for non-elite players. It gives you no flexibility when it expires. Myers, Lindblom, Hart all signed 3 year deals. One got bought out, one was pretty much bought out, and the third is going to get a huge ticket nearing UFA. Sanheim was bridged twice to 2 year deals and the UFA contract was not team friendly. It's just not good business.

As for the specific players, I think we got a glimpse at what the high end looks like for Frost and that is not the type I want to play year-to-year with. I've always been a Frost believer though and this organization has not, so there's that. I expect a bridge, but I think the smart play is to get him on a long-term deal with his past "struggles" baked into the number.

I would not be opposed to a Cates long-term deal, but the league still pays mostly for point production and I'm just not sure he has the raw skill to stuff the stat sheet and make you regret not extending him long-term. He may get there due to usage, but will he get the same usage if/when Coots returns? I would be OK playing year-to-year with him if need be.

York - Maybe we'll get clarity in the next two months, but how much more capital can the put into that blueline? I like York, but he's very much a complimentary player. Meaning - he's only going to produce at a high rate if he has the talent around him. That's not this team right now. He could be the full-time PP1 guy next year and that is something to consider, but this was the worst PP in the league this year, with the same coaching staff coming back (with a track record of poor results). It'll be hard to be the worst PP in the league again, but how much short term upside is there in that area?

 

[Striiker]

Frost is clearly superior to Cates. Far better offensively and still a good defensive player.

If Cates was the exact same player he is today, but with significantly more obvious offensive skill, these same people who are obsessed with him would like him less and claim his defense is actually not that good. Plus, then Torts wouldn’t be jerking him off constantly, which is 95% of his appeal to this fanbase.

Meanwhile Frost’s sin is having the wrong stereotype in a sport where the fans and people who run teams don’t understand the game at even the most basic level. Is there any other sport where the players who successfully do inarguably the most important thing a player can do in the game have that held against them?

 

[Appleyard]

My favorite part of the season was when Tortorella had shat upon Frost again while gushing about Cates, and at the time Frost was having better defensive results and massively better offensive results.

It tells you all you need to know about their evaluation skills. This team is doomed until every aspect of how they approach their sport is completely changed for the opposite.

The interview a while back on the Nasty Knuckles podcast with Hartnell about Torts was pretty hilarious... and also a bit concerning...

Basically:

Hartnell was close to leading team in scoring from mainly 3rd and 4th line.
Asked why he kept getting benched in 3rd period despite track record, two-way play and scoring.
Torts said Hartnell sucked on D and he did not trust him as always out of position.
Hartnell said back that actually he knew he was doing a good job on D and had not made any mistakes in the season so far individually.
Torts said was going to go away with video coach to put together a "Lowlight" video of how much he sucked.
Next day Torts comes and says... well... we looked through the video and I was wrong, you were perfect on D every game...
But nevertheless I dont know what it is, I physically cant trust you on ice regardless of it not being logical.

On one hand, nice he admitted a mistake! But yeh, the rest?

 

[Striiker]

The moral of the story is that Torts is a horrible coach and horrible human being.

 

[Rebels57]

The moral of the story is that Torts is a horrible coach and horrible human being.

This.

We are being held hostage by this piece of shit.

Nothing will get better here even with Fletcher gone. It's more likely to get worse until Torts is gone.

 

[deadhead]

Can you please elaborate why Frost had more downside ?

More inconsistent.
Cates will bring his defense every game, how far his offense can improve is the question?

Frost racked up a lot of points against weaker defenses, but he gets shut down and disappears a lot - Tippett actually became the more consistent player once they taught him to play hard even when puck luck was going against him.

A lot of offensive first players flash then flatline,
Max Domi ((#12) is a good example, 72 points at 23 years old, 44, 24, 39, 56 the next four seasons.
Probably b/c when they start scoring, opposing HCs give them more attention, the key is whether they have the drive to keep improving.

 

[deadhead]

The interview a while back on the Nasty Knuckles podcast with Hartnell about Torts was pretty hilarious... and also a bit concerning...

Basically:

Hartnell was close to leading team in scoring from mainly 3rd and 4th line.
Asked why he kept getting benched in 3rd period despite track record, two-way play and scoring.
Torts said Hartnell sucked on D and he did not trust him as always out of position.
Hartnell said back that actually he knew he was doing a good job on D and had not made any mistakes in the season so far individually.
Torts said was going to go away with video coach to put together a "Lowlight" video of how much he sucked.
Next day Torts comes and says... well... we looked through the video and I was wrong, you were perfect on D every game...
But nevertheless I dont know what it is, I physically cant trust you on ice regardless of it not being logical.

On one hand, nice he admitted a mistake! But yeh, the rest?

But notice also that Hartnell has nothing but kind words for him.

Having seen Hartnell play, Torts was right, Hartnell (like JVR this year or Seeler on defense, etc.) was good on defense b/c he was sheltered - give him a bigger role and he'd get exposed. Hartnell, especially his last few years, didn't exactly have jets attached to his skates. He got by with size and smarts.

This is why metrics should be taken in context, you can put up really good metrics if a HC knows how to protect you and you're fundamentally sound. Gudas is the poster boy, good metrics his entire career but always kept in a 3rd pair role - and when he had to step up in the playoffs he got exposed.

 

[Striiker]

This.

We are being held hostage by this piece of shit.

Nothing will get better here even with Fletcher gone. It's more likely to get worse until Torts is gone.

It’s like proudly announcing that you’ve removed a cancerous tumor while the patient is sitting on the Elephants Foot in Chernobyl.

Cool, tumors are bad, but you didn’t solve the source issue and the patient is still f***ed.

 

[Striiker]

Can you please elaborate why Frost had more downside ?

Because consistently invisible is better than someone who is sometimes invisible.

If I have to choose between a) a guy who scores against bad teams and racks up a ton of points in a few games, and b) a guy who never scores even while with the best offensive players, I'm taking "b". At least I know what I'm gonna get from him.

 

[VladDrag]

The interview a while back on the Nasty Knuckles podcast with Hartnell about Torts was pretty hilarious... and also a bit concerning...

Basically:

Hartnell was close to leading team in scoring from mainly 3rd and 4th line.
Asked why he kept getting benched in 3rd period despite track record, two-way play and scoring.
Torts said Hartnell sucked on D and he did not trust him as always out of position.
Hartnell said back that actually he knew he was doing a good job on D and had not made any mistakes in the season so far individually.
Torts said was going to go away with video coach to put together a "Lowlight" video of how much he sucked.
Next day Torts comes and says... well... we looked through the video and I was wrong, you were perfect on D every game...
But nevertheless I dont know what it is, I physically cant trust you on ice regardless of it not being logical.

On one hand, nice he admitted a mistake! But yeh, the rest?

I remember this story and having the exact same thought - He's a guy who will not change his ways.

 

[Curufinwe]

Didn't trust like Hartnell cause his hair was too long and curly, doesn't trust Frost because his hair is too short and straight.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Tippett actually became the more consistent player once they taught him to play hard even when puck luck was going against him.

The biggest difference between the two in consistency is between your ears.

 

[deadhead]

I dunno, clearly since December, Frost had more extreme lows than Tippett.

 

[Curufinwe]

I dunno, clearly since December, Frost had more extreme lows than Tippett.

No he didn't. Tippett got torched trying to kill penalties, and ended the season with the worst ES and the worst 5v5 GA/60 on the team.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

www.naturalstattrick.com

If you start on December 1st, Tippett had a 5v5 GA/60 of 3.3 compared to only 2.9 for Frost. And Frost outscored him 41 to 39 (36 to 30 at ES) with both playing 59 games.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

www.naturalstattrick.com

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Wait, they’re really trying this again?

 

[Curufinwe]

Wait, they’re really trying this again?

It was Jeff Marek's story.

 

[Rebels57]

Wait, they’re really trying this again?

This franchise and every one of it's employees is f***ing pathetic.

There is no way in hell they were drafting Oettinger in the 1st ONE YEAR after drafting Carter Hart in the 2nd round and watching him have a fantastic Draft +1. And then we didn't find out about until 6 years later while Oettinger is having a terrific playoff run.

Such losers.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

Wait, they’re really trying this again?

Outclassed by Dallas twice in the same first round.

I wonder if Marek got that information from Clarke.

 

[Rebels57]

Outclassed by Dallas twice in the same first round.

Lest we forget the Flyers drafted Isaac Ratcliffe 4 picks before Jason Robertson in the 2017 2nd.

So the Stars left that draft with Heiskanen, Oettinger, and Robertson.

The Flyers Patrick, Frost, Ratclife.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

Lest we forget the Flyers drafted Isaac Ratcliffe 4 picks before Jason Robertson in the 2017 2nd.

So the Stars left that draft with Heiskanen, Oettinger, and Robertson.

The Flyers Patrick, Frost, Ratclife.

We haven't heard from Clarke that the scouts wanted Robertson and Hextall overrode them to take Ratcliffe, but that's probably coming soon enough.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The interview a while back on the Nasty Knuckles podcast with Hartnell about Torts was pretty hilarious... and also a bit concerning...

Basically:

Hartnell was close to leading team in scoring from mainly 3rd and 4th line.
Asked why he kept getting benched in 3rd period despite track record, two-way play and scoring.
Torts said Hartnell sucked on D and he did not trust him as always out of position.
Hartnell said back that actually he knew he was doing a good job on D and had not made any mistakes in the season so far individually.
Torts said was going to go away with video coach to put together a "Lowlight" video of how much he sucked.
Next day Torts comes and says... well... we looked through the video and I was wrong, you were perfect on D every game...
But nevertheless I dont know what it is, I physically cant trust you on ice regardless of it not being logical.

On one hand, nice he admitted a mistake! But yeh, the rest?

It is a particular kind of arrogance that drives someone to keep doing something wrong on purpose even when they know they're wrong.

 

[Beef Invictus]

More inconsistent.
Cates will bring his defense every game, how far his offense can improve is the question?

Frost racked up a lot of points against weaker defenses, but he gets shut down and disappears a lot - Tippett actually became the more consistent player once they taught him to play hard even when puck luck was going against him.

A lot of offensive first players flash then flatline,
Max Domi ((#12) is a good example, 72 points at 23 years old, 44, 24, 39, 56 the next four seasons.
Probably b/c when they start scoring, opposing HCs give them more attention, the key is whether they have the drive to keep improving.

Except Frost's defense was consistently solid too, and when he played with actual good players his offense was consistent. His inconsistency has come from being used badly. This should not be surprising especially given his experience level, nor should it be used against him.

Tippett did not take a step forward because he learned to play harder. Effort has never been the problem. What a goofy claim.

I can't help but noticing you're missing a shitload of context with Domi and replacing it with a wild-ass guess. Weird, but not surprising. Like, games played. Points/60 tells a different story about those next 4 years depending on how his usage was.

Cates scores at a 4th line rate. Games are won by scoring. His defense is so good so far that he is a perfectly acceptable 3C or 4C if they have to continue this center experiment, but maxing out his ice time is maximizing the amount of time you're not scoring.

Is maximizing the amount of time you're not scoring good coaching? Is it consistent with a coach you insisted actually really loves offense and has spent his career as a secret offensive mastermind according to badly used stats?

 

[Beef Invictus]

But notice also that Hartnell has nothing but kind words for him.

Having seen Hartnell play, Torts was right, Hartnell (like JVR this year or Seeler on defense, etc.) was good on defense b/c he was sheltered - give him a bigger role and he'd get exposed. Hartnell, especially his last few years, didn't exactly have jets attached to his skates. He got by with size and smarts.

This is why metrics should be taken in context, you can put up really good metrics if a HC knows how to protect you and you're fundamentally sound. Gudas is the poster boy, good metrics his entire career but always kept in a 3rd pair role - and when he had to step up in the playoffs he got exposed.

This is also flat out not true.

That you keep having to say things that aren't true at all to defend people like Tortorella and Fletcher says it all. They cannot be supported by telling the truth. That's how bad they are.