2023-24 Roster Thread 1: Entering the Starting Gate

[deadhead]

Counting on a team using Tortarella as the roster maker to be smart is a lost cause. He already has video showing posted ad nauseum him proving the game has passed him by.

He developed Frost, Tippett, Cates, Allison, and York into NHL starters his first season as HC.
Tippett went from a trade throw-in to a 27 goal scorer.
Cates went from a college LW to an elite defender at center.
York went from college to the 1st pair and was the best D-man on the team.
Frost went from an erratic prospect to a solid 2C by the end of the season.

If that ain't player development . . .

And Shaw turned Risto from a disaster area to a solid defense first D-man.

If they can do the same next year with Foerster, Desnoyers, Zamula and Attard, you've got half your future team. Plus whatever prospects they pick up in trades.

It's funny, b/c the coach most like Torts is probably Stoutland, who is known to be loud, profane, rides his players hard, be brutally honest and stresses fundamentals. He drives out players who won't work hard, but the ones that survive the gauntlet love him. But kids today can't take hard coaching.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

I hope we get Eiserman next year. I feel like I will never see a 50 goal scorer in a Flyers uniform

And we never will as long as the current development staff is in place, they absolutely despise skill, and do everything they can to coach it out of them

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

 

[Rebels57]

This would make me so f***ing happy, but I don't think he gets in.

 

[dragonoffrost]

This would make me so f***ing happy, but I don't think he gets in.

Third line Stanley Cup playoffs with Montreal help his case.

Also his team USA time.

I don't think I need to show his credentials here.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

@JojoTheWhale I know you’re resting your brain but Tortorella is Stoutland now.

 

[Rebels57]

Interestingly, LeClair's similarity scores on hockeyreference have him in in the same tier as a 5 current Hall of Famers.

John LeClair Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of John LeClair. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Similarity Scores​

• Explanation
• Players with careers of similar quality and shape (thru 2021-22)

Thru 17 Years	Adjusted Point Shares (Best to Worst)
Player		1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17
John LeClair		13.1	13.0	12.4	11.7	11.2	10.2	7.3	5.9	4.6	4.0	3.7	2.9	1.5	0.9	0.5	0.4
Pavel Bure*	92.8	13.5	12.9	12.0	11.9	11.1	8.1	7.4	5.8	4.9	4.2	2.7	1.1
Nathan MacKinnon	92.3	12.8	12.2	11.8	11.3	9.7	7.7	5.7	4.8	3.7
Dany Heatley	90.7	13.4	12.9	11.6	11.0	10.6	8.8	7.3	6.8	6.3	3.4	2.9	1.8	-0.3
Charlie Conacher*	87.6	13.6	13.3	12.7	12.7	9.9	7.2	6.4	6.2	3.6	2.8	2.7	1.2
Bill Cook*	86.6	14.2	13.2	13.0	12.6	12.3	9.5	8.6	6.7	4.4	2.4	0.1
Eric Lindros*	86.5	15.0	12.8	12.4	10.0	10.0	9.5	9.2	7.7	7.6	5.2	3.7	2.1	2.1
Ziggy Pálffy	85.5	12.1	12.0	11.4	11.1	8.9	8.1	7.9	5.7	5.7	3.8	3.1	-0.3
Ilya Kovalchuk	84.5	12.0	11.2	11.0	10.6	10.5	10.3	9.0	7.8	6.8	6.1	5.7	2.7	2.6
Paul Kariya*	83.7	12.6	12.2	11.6	11.0	8.8	8.4	7.7	7.2	6.5	5.8	5.7	5.0	4.3	3.3	1.5
Markus Näslund	83.1	13.5	11.9	11.4	9.5	7.8	7.5	6.4	6.4	6.1	4.9	4.7	3.2	3.0	0.1	-0.

 

[dragonoffrost]

Interestingly, LeClair's similarity scores on hockeyreference have him in in the same tier as a 5 current Hall of Famers.

John LeClair Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of John LeClair. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Similarity Scores​

• Explanation
• Players with careers of similar quality and shape (thru 2021-22)

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Player[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH]1[/TH]
[TH]2[/TH]
[TH]3[/TH]
[TH]4[/TH]
[TH]5[/TH]
[TH]6[/TH]
[TH]7[/TH]
[TH]8[/TH]
[TH]9[/TH]
[TH]10[/TH]
[TH]11[/TH]
[TH]12[/TH]
[TH]13[/TH]
[TH]14[/TH]
[TH]15[/TH]
[TH]16[/TH]
[TH]17[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Thru 17 Years[/TH]
[TH]Adjusted Point Shares (Best to Worst)[/TH]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]John LeClair[/TH]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]13.1[/TD]
[TD]13.0[/TD]
[TD]12.4[/TD]
[TD]11.7[/TD]
[TD]11.2[/TD]
[TD]10.2[/TD]
[TD]7.3[/TD]
[TD]5.9[/TD]
[TD]4.6[/TD]
[TD]4.0[/TD]
[TD]3.7[/TD]
[TD]2.9[/TD]
[TD]1.5[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Pavel Bure*[/TH]
[TD]92.8[/TD]
[TD]13.5[/TD]
[TD]12.9[/TD]
[TD]12.0[/TD]
[TD]11.9[/TD]
[TD]11.1[/TD]
[TD]8.1[/TD]
[TD]7.4[/TD]
[TD]5.8[/TD]
[TD]4.9[/TD]
[TD]4.2[/TD]
[TD]2.7[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Nathan MacKinnon[/TH]
[TD]92.3[/TD]
[TD]12.8[/TD]
[TD]12.2[/TD]
[TD]11.8[/TD]
[TD]11.3[/TD]
[TD]9.7[/TD]
[TD]7.7[/TD]
[TD]5.7[/TD]
[TD]4.8[/TD]
[TD]3.7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Dany Heatley[/TH]
[TD]90.7[/TD]
[TD]13.4[/TD]
[TD]12.9[/TD]
[TD]11.6[/TD]
[TD]11.0[/TD]
[TD]10.6[/TD]
[TD]8.8[/TD]
[TD]7.3[/TD]
[TD]6.8[/TD]
[TD]6.3[/TD]
[TD]3.4[/TD]
[TD]2.9[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]-0.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Charlie Conacher*[/TH]
[TD]87.6[/TD]
[TD]13.6[/TD]
[TD]13.3[/TD]
[TD]12.7[/TD]
[TD]12.7[/TD]
[TD]9.9[/TD]
[TD]7.2[/TD]
[TD]6.4[/TD]
[TD]6.2[/TD]
[TD]3.6[/TD]
[TD]2.8[/TD]
[TD]2.7[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Bill Cook*[/TH]
[TD]86.6[/TD]
[TD]14.2[/TD]
[TD]13.2[/TD]
[TD]13.0[/TD]
[TD]12.6[/TD]
[TD]12.3[/TD]
[TD]9.5[/TD]
[TD]8.6[/TD]
[TD]6.7[/TD]
[TD]4.4[/TD]
[TD]2.4[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Eric Lindros*[/TH]
[TD]86.5[/TD]
[TD]15.0[/TD]
[TD]12.8[/TD]
[TD]12.4[/TD]
[TD]10.0[/TD]
[TD]10.0[/TD]
[TD]9.5[/TD]
[TD]9.2[/TD]
[TD]7.7[/TD]
[TD]7.6[/TD]
[TD]5.2[/TD]
[TD]3.7[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Ziggy Pálffy[/TH]
[TD]85.5[/TD]
[TD]12.1[/TD]
[TD]12.0[/TD]
[TD]11.4[/TD]
[TD]11.1[/TD]
[TD]8.9[/TD]
[TD]8.1[/TD]
[TD]7.9[/TD]
[TD]5.7[/TD]
[TD]5.7[/TD]
[TD]3.8[/TD]
[TD]3.1[/TD]
[TD]-0.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Ilya Kovalchuk[/TH]
[TD]84.5[/TD]
[TD]12.0[/TD]
[TD]11.2[/TD]
[TD]11.0[/TD]
[TD]10.6[/TD]
[TD]10.5[/TD]
[TD]10.3[/TD]
[TD]9.0[/TD]
[TD]7.8[/TD]
[TD]6.8[/TD]
[TD]6.1[/TD]
[TD]5.7[/TD]
[TD]2.7[/TD]
[TD]2.6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Paul Kariya*[/TH]
[TD]83.7[/TD]
[TD]12.6[/TD]
[TD]12.2[/TD]
[TD]11.6[/TD]
[TD]11.0[/TD]
[TD]8.8[/TD]
[TD]8.4[/TD]
[TD]7.7[/TD]
[TD]7.2[/TD]
[TD]6.5[/TD]
[TD]5.8[/TD]
[TD]5.7[/TD]
[TD]5.0[/TD]
[TD]4.3[/TD]
[TD]3.3[/TD]
[TD]1.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Markus Näslund[/TH]
[TD]83.1[/TD]
[TD]13.5[/TD]
[TD]11.9[/TD]
[TD]11.4[/TD]
[TD]9.5[/TD]
[TD]7.8[/TD]
[TD]7.5[/TD]
[TD]6.4[/TD]
[TD]6.4[/TD]
[TD]6.1[/TD]
[TD]4.9[/TD]
[TD]4.7[/TD]
[TD]3.2[/TD]
[TD]3.0[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]-0.[/TD]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Many consider him a passenger with Lindros being the conductor of the freight train. Yes he was Robin to Lindros's Batman but John was a good player.

 

[freakydallas13]

He developed Frost, Tippett, Cates, Allison, and York into NHL starters his first season as HC.
Tippett went from a trade throw-in to a 27 goal scorer.
Cates went from a college LW to an elite defender at center.
York went from college to the 1st pair and was the best D-man on the team.
Frost went from an erratic prospect to a solid 2C by the end of the season.

If that ain't player development . . .

And Shaw turned Risto from a disaster area to a solid defense first D-man.

If they can do the same next year with Foerster, Desnoyers, Zamula and Attard, you've got half your future team. Plus whatever prospects they pick up in trades.

It's funny, b/c the coach most like Torts is probably Stoutland, who is known to be loud, profane, rides his players hard, be brutally honest and stresses fundamentals. He drives out players who won't work hard, but the ones that survive the gauntlet love him. But kids today can't take hard coaching.

He developed Cates so well his overall effectiveness dropped from the previous season.

Tippet also was less effective this year than the previous one. Seems like he just got a massive increase in usage.

And as for Frost, well for some stupid reason Torts decided to play out best offensive player (Konecny) more with an offensive black hole at center (Cates) than with any other center. In fact, management had to go to Torts to tell him to play Forst more, so forgive me for not tipping my hat to him for Frost's success.

Developed Allison into a starter, lmao. As if he wasn't already ready to play full time the season before and was set back by injuries again.

Also, are you trying to say Torts gets credit for Shaw working with Risto? That's rich.

 

[dragonoffrost]

He developed Cates so well his overall effectiveness dropped from the previous season.

View attachment 706078

Tippet also was less effective this year than the previous one. Seems like he just got a massive increase in usage.

View attachment 706080

And as for Frost, well for some stupid reason Torts decided to play out best offensive player (Konecny) more with an offensive black hole at center (Cates) than with any other center. In fact, management had to go to Torts to tell him to play Forst more, so forgive me for not tipping my hat to him for Frost's success.

Developed Allison into a starter, lmao. As if he wasn't already ready to play full time the season before and was set back by injuries again.

Also, are you trying to say Torts gets credit for Shaw working with Risto? That's rich.

We've all been through this but it's repeated as gospel that Torts improved them.

 

[Curufinwe]

29th to 26th!

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

It needs to happen. He was a guy you could not move in front of the net. He probably still has scars on his back from all the cross checks he received from opponents trying to move him

 

[Beef Invictus]

He developed Frost, Tippett, Cates, Allison, and York into NHL starters his first season as HC.
Tippett went from a trade throw-in to a 27 goal scorer.
Cates went from a college LW to an elite defender at center.
York went from college to the 1st pair and was the best D-man on the team.
Frost went from an erratic prospect to a solid 2C by the end of the season.

If that ain't player development . . .

And Shaw turned Risto from a disaster area to a solid defense first D-man.

If they can do the same next year with Foerster, Desnoyers, Zamula and Attard, you've got half your future team. Plus whatever prospects they pick up in trades.

It's funny, b/c the coach most like Torts is probably Stoutland, who is known to be loud, profane, rides his players hard, be brutally honest and stresses fundamentals. He drives out players who won't work hard, but the ones that survive the gauntlet love him. But kids today can't take hard coaching.

No he didn't. He was forced to use Frost against his will and didn't provide coaching to individual players. Put that credit elsewhere.

 

[deadhead]

Yes, SSS performance in meaningless games in lesser roles should be given more weight.
We all know that.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

It also helps LeCLair that he was pretty good at the international level. Over a point PPG player at the senior level. A Gold in the World Cup & a Silver at the Olympics. Made the All-Tournament Team at the World Cup.

He honestly probably has a better argument than I thought based off that article.

 

[freakydallas13]

Yes, SSS performance in meaningless games in lesser roles should be given more weight.
We all know that.

Yes yes, we know your spiel. Games before December don't count. Games at the end of the season don't count. Torts' Vancouver stint doesn't count.

Whatever manipulation is necessary to support your argument, we get it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes, SSS performance in meaningless games in lesser roles should be given more weight.
We all know that.

You advocate for making substantial roster decisions based on a couple practices instead of real actual hockey games.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It also helps LeCLair that he was pretty good at the international level. Over a point PPG player at the senior level. A Gold in the World Cup & a Silver at the Olympics. Made the All-Tournament Team at the World Cup.

He honestly probably has a better argument than I thought based off that article.

The most common dismissal of him for years is "He's a product of Lindros." He isn't though. Neat thing about Lindros in this case is that he missed time often. LeClair didn't miss a beat. Turns out LeClair was just very very good at hockeying all on his own.

 

[Starat327]

Yes, SSS performance in meaningless games in lesser roles should be given more weight.
We all know that.

Weird. You used SSS in meaningless games to anoint Allison as Voraceks successor and taking his spot on PP1.

Just one more "do as I say, not as I do" Deady moment.

 

[freakydallas13]

Weird. You used SSS in meaningless games to anoint Allison as Voraceks successor and taking his spot on PP1.

Just one more "do as I say, not as I do" Deady moment.

Alison was ready to take Jake's spot on the PP, but under Tortorella could only play on the 4th line. And we're supposed to give Torts credit for developing Allison?

Lol. Lmao, even.

You advocate for making substantial roster decisions based on a couple practices instead of real actual hockey games.

Games at the begining and end of the season don't count, but you should make year long roster decisions based on 4 practice games in September.

 

[deadhead]

Allison hasn't been the same player he was in his late season cameo two years ago.
The injuries have taken their toll, same with Laczynski.
In both cases, the players have to show up at TC healthy and demonstrate that at 26, they belong in the Flyers' future.

Who would Allison play ahead of?
TK, Tippett, Atkinson, Foerster? No way.
Brink? Maybe.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Allison hasn't been the same player he was in his late season cameo two years ago.
The injuries have taken their toll, same with Laczynski.
In both cases, the players have to show up at TC healthy and demonstrate that at 26, they belong in the Flyers' future.

Who would Allison play ahead of?
TK, Tippett, Atkinson, Foerster? No way.
Brink? Maybe.

How come they get a pass for injuries and Frost doesn't?

Oh right. Management and Tortorella don't like skilled players. So after years of pumping him up you must do a 180

 

[Starat327]

His injuries have no bearing on the fact thst you had gim penciled in as a top 6 player after 14 decent (not even great) games in garbage time of a failed season.

Good effort on trying to shift the conversation, though.

 

[Rebels57]

You all need psychological evaluation.

 

[Starat327]

You all need psychological evaluation.

This isn't news though.