I wonder if Colorado would do a deal around not only Granlund but trading Landeskog. I don’t know how optimistic I’d be about him continuing his career and if I were the sharks I’d take a risk on a guy who may very well end up on permanent LTIR.
Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion
- Thread starter WTFetus
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Hodge
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- Apr 27, 2021
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Not sure you're aware of this obscure NHL rule but each team is actually required to dress 20 players every game. The alternative to signing a Kunin or Benning is not leaving the roster spot empty but filling it with a player making at least league minimum salary.
The league minimum salary is 775k. Dipping into my advanced math skills here, multiplying that by 4 adds up to 3.1 million so the amount of cap space "wasted" was about 4.4 million. And, again, that's assuming you have players making exactly the minimum in their stead rather than prospects on ELCs who often have slightly higher cap hits due to bonuses.
It's a myth that Grier has ever had enough space to take on a significant cap dump since taking over. That will change starting this offseason thanks to the moves Grier has made to dump some of the bad contracts he inherited and avoid signing new ones. If there are cap dumps moved to other teams this summer then it might be fair to criticize Grier for failing to get in on the action. Frankly, with the cap going up, I doubt anyone will get a 1st for taking a bad contract in the near future.
TheBigDrunkPanda
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- Oct 19, 2021
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I don't think taking on cap dumps is a smart move either, I'm simply reiterating that what Grier has done vs. what you are suggesting that I'm suggesting Grier should do (simply call up cheap AHLers or keep signing league mins) will end up with the same result : nothing, unless you consider 5th/6th round pick assets. It's just that when you look at the bigger picture, it clearly makes more sense to take on the bigger cap dumps with a proven pedigree which history has shown almost always ends up with the receiving team winning vs. thinking you're pulling a fast one on a GM and stealing a "hidden gem" player when in reality its just that GM stealing your lunch money.
Sturm has been good. Thrun has been good. The Meier return has ended up not being terrible. I'm not shitting on Grier but I'm saying he hasn't done a "good" job either. He was very lucky to have assets like Meier and Karlsson also when most teams in their situation only have the Hertl/Couture's. Kent Hughes simply got more for 1 player than Grier will get for all of the players he has been trying to flip is all im saying. But Sturm has 7 points this season while Granlund has 29, so that's not even really a discussion IMO.
Hodge
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My only point was that we could not have taken on the Monahan dump because of the mess DW left the salary cap in. So blaming Grier for that is absurd.
Never once did I blame Grier for not getting Monahan. I blamed him for not doing more trades like Monahan (Zaitsev for example).
We would literally have to remove 3 minimum players from last seasons roster to make that trade and then replacing them with league minimum roster players which is basically just rookies and we would still barely make it under the cap. And that does not even bring up the fact that most of these cap dumps have no trade clauses, so who is to say that zaitsev even wanted to come to san jose.
I don't know if you realize this, but last year we had like under 200k in cap space.
Even this season we only have 2.2 million in cap space, taking on big contracts is not that feasible.
TheBigDrunkPanda
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I’m no Grier fan I still say he is garbage tier, but he has made a handful of decent moves. Sturm was out with injury and personal reason which reflects on his point totals. The Meier at the time of the trade was lack luster and while it looks ok now timo is having a down year and Zetts is having a career year so the jury is still out.
I’d say his trade acumen is garbage but it looks like he’s pretty decent at drafting and his FA signings are honestly shotgun blast and hopefully you hit something
The demand for solid goalies and centers is much higher than supply right now...really hope Grier is out here shopping Granlund, Sturm, Herlt even, Kahkonen, Blackwood...
I mean, that wouldn't be all that difficult for a rebuilding team with some foresight for planning on being available for such a deal. We wasted 1.5 mil on Nutivaara. We could've not signed Lindblom for another 2.5 mil. We could've saved ourselves a 3rd round pick and 2.75 mil on Luke Kunin. We could've traded Kahkonen and not signed him then. We had Dell as a vet to eat the losses. That's enough space to take on Monahan and fill the extra forward spot that would've actually created.
I prefer to believe it was never on the table because of Monahan's trade protection so it's easier to not care about it lol
The point though is that the space is there if you actually keep the flexibility over worrying about having vets eat the losses of being bad instead of a kid. They could've gotten cheaper vets to accomplish that but they put some importance on the sort of players like Kunin that are supposed to play with a little edge and be able to keep fighting.
Really the only quibble I've had with Grier is his jamming up the bottom six with so many vets and lottery tickets. It's just not needed. You can just call grinders up for that sort of thing. Or give a shot to someone like a Chmelevski or Kaut. Who knows, maybe one of them pans out, and you've got another trade asset, for free.
I've had less of an issue with it this year because some of the guys filling roster spots are from the Karlsson trade, and those are just the guys that he needed to take on to make that happen. But I'm hoping next year, since we have so many contracts expiring this summer, we go easy on the signings and just let some new guys have a crack at it.
This is a minor issue, though. I do like what he's done on the big transactions, i.e. drafting and the Meier trade. And that's the important stuff.
hohosaregood
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I think overstocking has mostly worked out this year. Nobody has really stood in the way and prevented good young players from taking hold of lineup spots. Zetterlund and Zadina for example. Zadina dropped to the 4th line for his quality of play while Zetterlund established himself as a legit top 9. On defense, Emberson established himself while Knyzhov played his way out of the NHL.
Lineup spots are getting filled in in a way that let's you filter the wheat from the chaff once we get to the offseason.
Lineup spots are getting filled in in a way that let's you filter the wheat from the chaff once we get to the offseason.
I don't think it's needed either but it's also not a huge issue. It's a personal preference of priorities. I prefer the draft picks over the culture benefits.
Gecklund
Registered User
The drafting under Grier has been pretty good. I might even add very good. He’s added Bystedt, Havelid, Lund, Furlong, Smith, Musty, Halttunen, Cagnoni who all look like they could be NHLers. Obviously not all will be but 4 a draft is pretty good.
I think your quibble with Grier is exactly what most other peoples are. He’s taken so many chances on guys that just haven’t worked out. Zadina, Kunin, Lindblom, Peterson, Kaut, Duclair, Gawanke, Addison, Burroughs. Obviously the most valuable piece we gave up for all of that was a 3rd so can only complain so much but still that is a whole lot of garbage. A few of those are young enough that they might turn it around (Addison mostly) or could be moved at the TDL to make it worth it (Duclair mostly).
At the same time though, that strategy gave us Emberson, Thrun, Zetterlund, Okhotiuk and helped fill out the Cuda lineup.
My issue with Grier is the length he gives in his contracts. I get it we kind of need to to get them to come here and generally the salary is small enough that it doesn’t matter but man it’s weird. I’ve never really seen this before. Multiple bottom of the lineup guys signed for multiple years. I think next year will be the big year to judge Grier. You’d think some of these prospects that he’s gotten will really start to establish themselves and with so much cap space it will be interesting to see what he does.
I’m still on board with taking on a bloated goalie contract for a high pick. The goalie FA market is pretty bad this year unless we can pry one of the RFAs away and with nothing in the system that looks ready, go get a first for Campbell!
Meier has 18 points this season. Zetterlund has 21. By no means saying that he is better than Meier, but you need to admit to yourself that Grier did well with the Meier trade. Trying to sell it as “not terrible” is as bad as when you overheated trying to convince the board that Okhoktiuk was a primary piece.
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Gecklund
Registered User
Because our team and fans are sad (just ask the players), I was trying to think what a realistic deadline would look like for SJ.
Players that I could see traded:
Labanc (UFA), Hoffman (UFA), Duclair (UFA), Kunin (RFA), Barabanov (UFA), Sturm (1 more year), Zadina (RFA), Carpenter (UFA), McDonald (UFA), Granlund (1 more year), Rutta (1 more year), Ferraro (3 more years), Kahkonen (UFA)
Of that list, I think realistic returns are pretty minimal for most guys but here goes nothing trying to figure out returns:
Labanc for a nothing prospect or player that requires waivers next year to a team that needs scoring in their bottom 6. Teams I could see interested are Pittsburgh, Detroit, Minnesota. Guys I could see in return: Ty Smith, Jansen Harkins, Alex Nylander, Jon Gruden, Jared McIsaac, Connor Dewar, Adam Beckman, Ryan O’Rourke.
Mike Hoffman same as Labanc honestly.
Anthony Duclair and Alex Barabanov are kind of together. I’d say Duclair has slightly more due to past success but both struggling this year, I think we get a third for each.
Luke Kunin is a weird one. I still can’t quite figure out what he’s good at but Quinn seems to love him. I think he’s a resign candidate as much as I hope he gets traded.
Nico Sturm is another guy that I think we hold on to but with Eklund looking very good at C in his very limited sample size, he could be a sneaky add for a contender. If a team comes in and offers us a 2nd or a 3rd and a prospect I probably take it.
Granlund, this one all depends on his health. If he’s hurt then this kind of goes out the window. As we all know he’s been much better than expected this year. He’s who I hope we use our last retention spot for and potentially pick up a 2nd. With that said, I think he ends up staying but I also think he’s worth putting on this list.
Zadina McDonald and Carpenter I don’t think get much if any interest. Zadina maybe by a team hoping they can resurrect him because he definitely has shown signs in SJ just very inconsistently. Carpenter I really haven’t looked as his numbers which is why I put him here but he’s a good locker room guy, that’s good on the dot, and can PK. I could see a team throwing a 7th or asking for him to be thrown in to a bigger trade. McDonald same thing as Carpenter. Throw in to a bigger trade or a nothing piece coming back.
Rutta is a guy that I think could be shook loose from SJ. He’s shown some signs recently and sharks defense is just full at this point of guys that I personally prefer over Rutta. I wouldn’t expect to get much more than a 4th or a 5th for him but with Emberson, Benning, Burroughs, and Addison down the right side next year, he’s not really needed.
Ferraro is yet another guy I think we hold on to but I really hope we don’t. He’s probably our most valuable piece right now. I’d hope a bidding war brings this to a late first but I think we are looking at like a 2nd and 3rd for him. With Thrun, Shakir, Vlasic, Okhotiuk, Knyzhov down the left side, I’d be okay picking up a lottery ticket or two for him.
Kahkonen has to move right? Seems like he’s the best goalie on the market right now. I think we could get back a 2nd+goalie cap dump here. Something like Copley, Lyon, Petersen, Vanecek to block our AHL goalies who are clearly not ready.
All these words to say I have no idea what’s going on and I can’t wait to be wrong but with so many pieces to throw into the fire, this could be a very fun deadline!
Players that I could see traded:
Labanc (UFA), Hoffman (UFA), Duclair (UFA), Kunin (RFA), Barabanov (UFA), Sturm (1 more year), Zadina (RFA), Carpenter (UFA), McDonald (UFA), Granlund (1 more year), Rutta (1 more year), Ferraro (3 more years), Kahkonen (UFA)
Of that list, I think realistic returns are pretty minimal for most guys but here goes nothing trying to figure out returns:
Labanc for a nothing prospect or player that requires waivers next year to a team that needs scoring in their bottom 6. Teams I could see interested are Pittsburgh, Detroit, Minnesota. Guys I could see in return: Ty Smith, Jansen Harkins, Alex Nylander, Jon Gruden, Jared McIsaac, Connor Dewar, Adam Beckman, Ryan O’Rourke.
Mike Hoffman same as Labanc honestly.
Anthony Duclair and Alex Barabanov are kind of together. I’d say Duclair has slightly more due to past success but both struggling this year, I think we get a third for each.
Luke Kunin is a weird one. I still can’t quite figure out what he’s good at but Quinn seems to love him. I think he’s a resign candidate as much as I hope he gets traded.
Nico Sturm is another guy that I think we hold on to but with Eklund looking very good at C in his very limited sample size, he could be a sneaky add for a contender. If a team comes in and offers us a 2nd or a 3rd and a prospect I probably take it.
Granlund, this one all depends on his health. If he’s hurt then this kind of goes out the window. As we all know he’s been much better than expected this year. He’s who I hope we use our last retention spot for and potentially pick up a 2nd. With that said, I think he ends up staying but I also think he’s worth putting on this list.
Zadina McDonald and Carpenter I don’t think get much if any interest. Zadina maybe by a team hoping they can resurrect him because he definitely has shown signs in SJ just very inconsistently. Carpenter I really haven’t looked as his numbers which is why I put him here but he’s a good locker room guy, that’s good on the dot, and can PK. I could see a team throwing a 7th or asking for him to be thrown in to a bigger trade. McDonald same thing as Carpenter. Throw in to a bigger trade or a nothing piece coming back.
Rutta is a guy that I think could be shook loose from SJ. He’s shown some signs recently and sharks defense is just full at this point of guys that I personally prefer over Rutta. I wouldn’t expect to get much more than a 4th or a 5th for him but with Emberson, Benning, Burroughs, and Addison down the right side next year, he’s not really needed.
Ferraro is yet another guy I think we hold on to but I really hope we don’t. He’s probably our most valuable piece right now. I’d hope a bidding war brings this to a late first but I think we are looking at like a 2nd and 3rd for him. With Thrun, Shakir, Vlasic, Okhotiuk, Knyzhov down the left side, I’d be okay picking up a lottery ticket or two for him.
Kahkonen has to move right? Seems like he’s the best goalie on the market right now. I think we could get back a 2nd+goalie cap dump here. Something like Copley, Lyon, Petersen, Vanecek to block our AHL goalies who are clearly not ready.
All these words to say I have no idea what’s going on and I can’t wait to be wrong but with so many pieces to throw into the fire, this could be a very fun deadline!
Sharksrule04
Registered User
I don’t understand how someone could be ok with getting only a 2nd or 3rd for Ferraro. If that is the return you don’t trade him. He’s still young, has leadership written all over him, works his bum off and still would be a good 3-5 DMan. Only reason he looks bad at times IMo is because he’s forced into a role above his abilities due to our crappy defense group. What are even the chances of getting another Ferraro in the 2nd or 3rd round. Not high. If we are moving him you need a first rounder plus since that first rounder would likely be in the 26-32 range.
It’s just poor asset management. Not like he’s killing our cap situation.
Gecklund
Registered User
I said a 2nd and a 3rd. I’d easily take that for Ferraro. Ferraro is horrible. I have genuinely no idea why anyone has any interest in him. He’s Kris Russell 2.0.
Sharksrule04
Registered User
Well the league disagrees with your take on him being ”horrible”. I’d take a pair of 2nd round picks for him but 2nd and 3rd to me while not horrible is too little for someone his age and at his salary.
Gecklund
Registered User
Well the stats don’t disagree with me. His advanced stats say we should take a 7th for him.
This season he’s been a bit better but his stats still say we should take whatever it is we can get for him.
His salary is over priced for what he brings to the team.
It’s times like this I’m glad some of us are just posters on a message board and not actually tasked with making personnel decisions for the club.
Gecklund
Registered User
Yeah me too. We’d be stuck with the nostalgia guys like Ferraro, Timo, Nieto, Bonino, etc
How we all forget that we’d have moved him for a pack of gum last season.
