You don't trade Toews for anything less than a 3-4 year 2C solution. That's likely not on the table either. So you don't trade Toews. You don't let Toews walk as long as Byram hasn't usurped him AND G hasn't regained form. The next contract will likely suck down the road, but the care for 5-6-7 years from now shouldn't be factoring into the decision.
Rumor: 2023-2024 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: Off-season is in full swing
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TruePowerSlave
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- Jun 27, 2015
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Letting core players walk for nothing is a quick way plummet down the standings. Toews is very much a key player for this team and if he leaves we will see the downgrade immediately. Even when he has been out in the past seasons the Avs haven't looked nearly as solid.
Ararana
Registered User
It's a try to win immediately, and greatly suffer for it move. Then we get to see everyone's shocked face when all of a sudden they can't afford/won't pay up for Mikko. IMO you're choosing between Mikko/Toews and that's a no brainer to me. Girard is gone regardless.
Personally, I'd move Toews in an approach to keep as much of the core together for longer. But I'm bias because I have a lot of faith in Byram replacing him.
dahrougem2
Registered User
Funny thing is I think he will age exactly like Giordano. Didn't come into his own until 25/26 when he returned from Russia.
I think it comes down to Byram really for the most part.
If you think Byram can replace Toews, you let Toews walk and allocate the $8M you would give Toews on Byram and Mikko's raises essentially.
If you don't think Byram can replace Toews... You kind of have to re-sign Toews. But at that point I would say you also should be trading Byram quite frankly. If he can't replace Toews, he would hold more value to this teams future as a trade chip to greatly improve the forward situation instead of being a 2nd pairing guy.
Personally I think there's one other play in this but it's admittedly the least likely and very few of us here consider it an option so it isn't worth getting into again.
NateTheGreat
Registered User
Whether to extend Toews or let him walk for free is a more complex decision than Mikko’s situation.
Let’s say Mikko makes 12M annually on his next deal, which admittedly might be a little low, that’s only a 2.75M increase from his current cap hit. It’s a no brainer.
In regards to Toews, Girard needs to be dealt to make room for an extension. G will never reach the caliber of play that Toews is currently at. We will certainly be underwhelmed at the return of a Girard trade, but when you factor in the ability to keep Toews on the team, it’s our best option.
Let’s say Mikko makes 12M annually on his next deal, which admittedly might be a little low, that’s only a 2.75M increase from his current cap hit. It’s a no brainer.
In regards to Toews, Girard needs to be dealt to make room for an extension. G will never reach the caliber of play that Toews is currently at. We will certainly be underwhelmed at the return of a Girard trade, but when you factor in the ability to keep Toews on the team, it’s our best option.
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- Apr 25, 2006
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Probably based on NHLers aging curve?
I can't believe how emotional fans are. You guys would rather keep all the stars and lose in the first round because there's no money for depth than build a team properly and have a shot at winning again.
Byram has to take Toews' spot next to Makar in 2024-25. The same way that Makar took Barrie's spot. If he can't we're f***ed.
Toews shouldn't be re-signed and keeping him as our own rental is a legit option. If he walks, he walks. We'll spend the money elsewhere.
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Ararana
Registered User
Yes. My lone opinion is the only reason Toews won't continue to play like a 25 year old into his 30s.
GirardSpinorama
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- Aug 20, 2004
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And trade Manson away too. We just can't afford that luxury.
Should never have been re-signed to begin with. Now he’s gonna be hard to get rid of.
Foppa2118
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- Oct 3, 2003
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This Avalanche defense would be so incredibly soft without Manson.
If Manson can be relatively healthy during the playoffs, he's worth his value. He played a decent sized part in helping them win the Cup and he can still play that way if healthy.
If Manson can be relatively healthy during the playoffs, he's worth his value. He played a decent sized part in helping them win the Cup and he can still play that way if healthy.
NorthernAvsFan
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- Jun 25, 2014
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I always have a hard time with the Manson conversation.
I definitely think he’s valuable when he’s playing well, but I also don’t think he’s some kind of linchpin to the defence. He’s never been that important, or brought that kind of value.
Girard is really the only defender on the team that you could consider soft.
I definitely think he’s valuable when he’s playing well, but I also don’t think he’s some kind of linchpin to the defence. He’s never been that important, or brought that kind of value.
Girard is really the only defender on the team that you could consider soft.
Foppa2118
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- Oct 3, 2003
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Guys like Makar, Byram, and Toews aren't necessarily soft, but they're of average size and strength.
Which can be game planned for and taken advantage of in the playoffs. Add in Girard to the mix and the need for a Manson type defenseman becomes clear.
Manson himself may not be a lynchpin to winning, but his role is. You need a big, strong, hard to play against defenseman like him (preferably two) if you want to win the Cup, and Manson plays that role well when healthy.
I wouldn't consider Girard soft. He actually throws hits and battles with guys. He's just small and weak.
- Dec 4, 2002
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He's not as bad as a lot of people in here make him out to be.
When Manson is healthy he's a great player and a perfect pairing for Girard or Bo, but that's also the problem. He's too injury prone.
- Dec 4, 2002
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Don't agree with that one bit.
@Foppa2118 hit it on the head. Teams need a couple of tough physical defensemen like that to win cups. If the Avs got rid of Manson, they'd need exactly that type of player to replace him.
I suppose one could make the point that those types of defensemen should be had for $1M on the 3rd pairing, but that doesn't make Manson a shit player (when healthy).
NateTheGreat
Registered User
Therein lies the problem. It’s never been a lack of effort. I actually appreciate Girard’s intensity and compete level. However with Makar, Toews and to a lesser extent Byram playing more of a finesse game, it comes down to fit with G. The Manson contract was overcompensating for this exact problem.
NorthernAvsFan
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- Jun 25, 2014
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Imo, where things get confused is on Manson’s actual defensive ability. It’s miles behind Makar/Toews and hundreds of meters behind Byram and Girard.
The only way teams gameplan against Makar/Toews is by hoping their best players can break through every once in a while. Those guys are rocks defensively. They eat tough minutes/matchups, kill the penalties, operate the power play.
Manson’s value is in hitting people. Which is an element that means something in the playoffs. It’s why the Avs made Ross Colton their prime target this off-season. He’s a high motor player that fits the system.
Tbh, they might as well hang onto Manson this year to see if he recoups value. His value is in the gutter. I think it’s pretty unlikely he plays that poorly this season.
He’s pretty bad outside of specific situations. Analytically, might be the worst defender on the team. He played an important role in the Cup, but he’s been regressing hard for 5 years now and it isn’t stopping. Locked into 4.5m with a NTC is not great. Should been pure rental and let go. Even said this when the Avs grabbed him. I’m a long time Manson fan too.
I’d say it is more likely than not. He’s a physical defensive defenseman over 30. They age like raw milk on a 100 degree day.
On Byram… Byram’s ceiling as a defender is higher certainly. We just get that so rarely and he yolos too much to where he’s also rather poor right now. He needs pulled back and focused to be good defensively (hope that happens this year)
NorthernAvsFan
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- Jun 25, 2014
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He was just so awful last year, I think it’s going to be hard to replicate, tbh.
I’m not expecting him to return to prime form, but if he just completely stunk it would surprise me.
I hope you’re rightHe was just so awful last year, I think it’s going to be hard to replicate, tbh.
I’m not expecting him to return to prime form, but if he just completely stunk it would surprise me.
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