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Rumor: 2023-2024 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: Off-season is in full swing

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Best and worst contracts on the Avs according to the Athletic's model. Girard's contract is most definitely overrated around here.
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nammerus said:
This is a team that saved its 2021 1st rounder instead of adding to a top 2-3 contender, so that it could waste it on Oskar Olausson. Tell me how trading that pick would have impeded what they do the following year.

And it’s not something to be proud of that you think they prefer non-measures to half-measures. Both are terrible ways to run a cup contender.
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That’s not even remotely what I said. Cogliano was a great pickup in 2022 but only made sense because they also moved for Lehkonen and Manson. Those were the full measure moves not Cogliano. Eller was the same thing had they succeeded in trading for O’Reilly for example.
 
zxcvnm said:
Eller was a non-measure not a half-measure. Same with guys like Nemeth and Soderberg in previous years. I’m talking about primary targets that cost 1st round picks or equivalent prospects. You either make big moves for the right pieces or you don’t move at all. At least that’s a reasonable philosophy.

Again, I won’t argue that the Avs shouldn’t have been more aggressive previously. Just that I see some logic in it and provided that they become super aggressive at the right times, I could argue that they were right. For example, if the Avs manage to make a move for Lindholm this year using capital they wouldn’t have had had they been more aggressive last year, I will judge the last TDL much more favorably.
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I'd say that is moving the goalposts. Those moves were made to shore up the team and address issues. Not that the Avs would do anything with it, but a 2nd rounder isn't nothing to give up. One of the reasons the Avs are in the pickle they are with the cap is they can't get suitable depth without trades or signings... even utilizing their 1sts and 2nds they've had issues.

The Avs aren't grabbing Lindholm this year. They have their centers and they'll run with them. I'm a RyJo fan and I think you could very reasonable argue that he's also a half measure. A guy they got cheap with upside because he's sucked lately.
 
Muffin said:
Best and worst contracts on the Avs according to the Athletic's model. Girard's contract is most definitely overrated around here.
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We like Dom's model again?

Also gonna be hilarious to see this used as a poster of why the Avs are doing so great... when this year's big moves are worth -16m. :laugh:

(BTW I hate this usage of Dom's model... only real use case is an article for clicks IMO)
 
Balthazar said:
I was told Miles Wood's contract was fine
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Frankly, if Wood can find his play of 2-3 years ago prior to his hip issues... he'll be great for the first 3-4 years of that deal. If he plays like last year... he's going to be a 2.5m 4th liner.
 
henchman21 said:
I'd say that is moving the goalposts. Those moves were made to shore up the team and address issues. Not that the Avs would do anything with it, but a 2nd rounder isn't nothing to give up. One of the reasons the Avs are in the pickle they are with the cap is they can't get suitable depth without trades or signings... even utilizing their 1sts and 2nds they've had issues.

The Avs aren't grabbing Lindholm this year. They have their centers and they'll run with them.
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What goalposts am I moving? The Avs overpaid for Eller, but I saw that move as roughly comparable to their trade for Cogliano the year prior. The obvious clue there is the Avs got retention because they were intending on making a bigger move that didn't materialize. You use 2nd rounders or ideally lower picks to shore up depth issues but 1st and equivalent prospects are the assets you trade to be aggressive at the deadline and move the needle. The issue with the last TDL wasn't that they traded for Eller (although overpaying for him is a fair criticism), but that they didn't move their 1st/Behrens/etc for a player that could've really helped them during the playoffs.

For example, trading their first for Bertuzzi or Jeannot might be viewable as a half measure. I'm not familiar enough with Jeannot to say something more concretely. My point is trading 1st for the right fit makes sense. Otherwise, there's some logic in holding onto the assets until the next year.

Edit: since you brought up RyJo as a half measure after you updated your post... he kind of is but he was super cheap to acquire and doesn't limit the Avs' ability to make any follow-up moves. I believe there were reports they inquired on Backlund. I don't know if Backlund moves the needle or not and he might be a half-measure too, but I'm not entirely convinced that the Avs won't look to make more upgrades. I know Lindholm is a pipe dream, but my point is that they are better equipped to go after him with the assets they have than they would've been had they moved those assets at last year's TDL.
 
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Balthazar said:
Dom's model or not, on paper these moves suck. We got a bunch of problematic players. FTR I get why they did it and there's a chance of success.
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They went risky out of necessity IMO. There wasn't the space to go after real solutions and still have depth.
zxcvnm said:
What goalposts am I moving? The Avs overpaid for Eller, but I saw that move as roughly comparable to their trade for Cogliano the year prior. The obvious clue there is the Avs got retention because they were intending on making a bigger move that didn't materialize. You use 2nd rounders or ideally lower picks to shore up depth issues but 1st and equivalent prospects are the assets you trade to be aggressive at the deadline and move the needle. The issue with the last TDL wasn't that they traded for Eller (although overpaying for him is a fair criticism), but that they didn't move their 1st/Behrens/etc for a player that could've really helped them during the playoffs.

For example, trading their first for Bertuzzi or Jeannot might be viewable as a half measure. I'm not familiar enough with Jeannot to say something more concretely. My point is trading 1st for the right fit makes sense. Otherwise, there's some logic in holding onto the assets until the next year.
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By saying they are non-measures instead of half measures... which is simply a terminology difference to change categorization of what is acceptable vs not. The moves they made was to get roster players and they spent assets to do so. The Avs have repeatedly made moves to fill holes on the roster that fall short of actually solving them. IMO whether you call them a half measure or a non measure, the result is the same. Moves that didn't address the real issue.

Eller, Soda, Nemeth, Namestnikov, JoJo, Pateryn, Dubnyk, Nieto, Malgin, JMFJ, Eller, Hutch etc. were all moves made to flex seal the boat and cost a bunch of cans worth instead of solving the issue. Arguably, the Avs have done that again with RyJo, Wood, and Drouin. The Avs in some ways are forced to do this with a lack of cap space and lack of drafting success. In other ways, they continue to pick guys like OO.
 
henchman21 said:
By saying they are non-measures instead of half measures... which is simply a terminology difference to change categorization of what is acceptable vs not. The moves they made was to get roster players and they spent assets to do so. The Avs have repeatedly made moves to fill holes on the roster that fall short of actually solving them. IMO whether you call them a half measure or a non measure, the result is the same. Moves that didn't address the real issue.

Eller, Soda, Nemeth, Namestnikov, JoJo, Pateryn, Dubnyk, Nieto, Malgin, JMFJ, Eller, Hutch etc. were all moves made to flex seal the boat and cost a bunch of cans worth instead of solving the issue. Arguably, the Avs have done that again with RyJo, Wood, and Drouin. The Avs in some ways are forced to do this with a lack of cap space and lack of drafting success. In other ways, they continue to pick guys like OO.
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Then perhaps I'm not making my point clearly. The Avs have held onto 1st round picks and equivalent prospects instead of moving them for real assets that move the needle except for 2022. By stockpiling them for well-timed all-in moves can be a better strategy than moving them one at a time at each TDL. The Avs traded for both Lehkonen and Manson in 2022 which might not have been possible had they moved Helleson or Barron in years earlier.

Again, I'm not saying that the Avs were right for doing this. Just that I see some logic in it. Since I believe that this has been their philosophy, I believe this should be an all-in year given that they failed to make the desired moves last TDL. If they don't do anything this year, then I will judge this year and last much more harshly. But I'm simply reserving judgement until I see what they do.
 
Really not that surprising from Dom’s model.

I’m sure his model will come around on Wood, Colton, and Johansen after their numbers/underlyings jump up after this season.

We already know how he and Jfresh feel about the Avs this year.
 
zxcvnm said:
Then perhaps I'm not making my point clearly. The Avs have held onto 1st round picks and equivalent prospects instead of moving them for real assets that move the needle except for 2022. By stockpiling them for well-timed all-in moves can be a better strategy than moving them one at a time at each TDL. The Avs traded for both Lehkonen and Manson in 2022 which might not have been possible had they moved Helleson or Barron in years earlier.

Again, I'm not saying that the Avs were right for doing this. Just that I see some logic in it. Since I believe that this has been their philosophy, I believe this should be an all-in year given that they failed to make the desired moves last TDL. If they don't do anything this year, then I will judge this year and last much more harshly. But I'm simply reserving judgement until I see what they do.
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I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't say it really played out like that or is playing out like that. 22 was a timing situation where there was going to be turnover and it as a shit or get off the pot situation. Not a save up for this one year while in previous years only put in partial efforts.

If this was an all in year by their standards, wouldn't it stand to reason that they'd get a better 2C option than RyJo? Lindholm and Kuznetsov are both on the market and much more qualified today. This is from a person who probably loves RyJo the most on this board. :laugh:
 
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henchman21 said:
I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't say it really played out like that or is playing out like that. 22 was a timing situation where there was going to be turnover and it as a shit or get off the pot situation. Not a save up for this one year while in previous years only put in partial efforts.

If this was an all in year by their standards, wouldn't it stand to reason that they'd get a better 2C option than RyJo? Lindholm and Kuznetsov are both on the market and much more qualified today. This is from a person who probably loves RyJo the most on this board. :laugh:
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You might be right about 2022. Probably are. Regardless of the underlying reason, the way it played out might have worked out in the Avs' favor in the end. Who knows. Thankfully we have a Stanley Cup to show for it. Maybe could've had another with a more aggressive front office (or none at all) but that's an impossible debate.

I think the Avs should do everything in their power to go after Lindholm. Acquiring RyJo doesn't prevent them from doing that (and RyJo can be moved to wing). Frankly, I think the Avs should go after and extend Lindholm possibly forcing them to move Lehkonen next offseason. I think they're more likely to go after Backlund because it simplifies the next offseason. I don't think either are on the market yet. But I'm holding out hope that the Avs aren't satisfied yet. Perhaps foolishly.
 
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zxcvnm said:
You might be right about 2022. Probably are. Regardless of the underlying reason, the way it played out might have worked out in the Avs' favor in the end. Who knows. Thankfully we have a Stanley Cup to show for it. Could've had another with a more aggressive front office but that's an impossible debate.

I think the Avs should do everything in their power to after Lindholm. Going for RyJo doesn't prevent them from doing that (and RyJo can be moved to wing). Frankly, I think the Avs should go after and extend Lindholm possibly forcing them to move Lehkonen next offseason. I think they're more likely to go after Backlund because it simplifies the next offseason. I don't think either are on the market yet. But I'm holding out hope that the Avs aren't satisfied yet. Perhaps foolishly.
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Yeah thankfully the Avs got one. In the end, it is incredibly difficult to even get one... the fact that they did makes the build a success IMO.

I don't think the front office really deceives fans in the media. When they talk about Colton and RyJo shoring up center, I take that at face value. They made the moves they felt would work there. Additionally, both players have term so the current plan isn't just for this year (though RyJo's buyout is likely affordable). The position I think the Avs will look to address is top 6 wing. They are taking the risk with Drouin simply knowing the likelihood is low of it working. If he struggles, I think that'll end up being their top targeted position... and I think DeBrusk will be the guy.
 
henchman21 said:
Yeah thankfully the Avs got one. In the end, it is incredibly difficult to even get one... the fact that they did makes the build a success IMO.

I don't think the front office really deceives fans in the media. When they talk about Colton and RyJo shoring up center, I take that at face value. They made the moves they felt would work there. Additionally, both players have term so the current plan isn't just for this year (though RyJo's buyout is likely affordable). The position I think the Avs will look to address is top 6 wing. They are taking the risk with Drouin simply knowing the likelihood is low of it working. If he struggles, I think that'll end up being their top targeted position... and I think DeBrusk will be the guy.
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The Avs traded for RyJo on June 24, a few days before the draft. I don't follow Friedman closely enough to vet this article: Flames Rumours: Top West Team Linked To Veteran but the claim is that the Avs inquired about Backlund around the time of the draft. It's possible the Avs were pursing either RyJo or Backlund rather than considering trading for both. But if they were inquiring about Backlund even after the RyJo trade (which is not clear from the article), that would mean they would consider upgrades at center even with RyJo on the team. Since Calgary might be waiting until the season to trade either Backlund or Lindholm, it's possible that the Avs will have time to evaluate whether RyJo can be the solution at 2C or revisit trade discussions down the line.

I think the roster is still weak at 2C without Landeskog's presence. I think the team is better than last year and this team can win a championship if a lot of things go right. But a big move in the top 6 would significantly increase their chances. And they have the assets to do it.
 
zxcvnm said:
The Avs traded for RyJo on June 24, a few days before the draft. I don't follow Friedman closely enough to vet this article: Flames Rumours: Top West Team Linked To Veteran but the claim is that the Avs inquired about Backlund around the time of the draft. It's possible the Avs were pursing either RyJo or Backlund rather than considering trading for both. But if they were inquiring about Backlund even after the RyJo trade (which is not clear from the article), that would mean they would consider upgrades at center even with RyJo on the team. Since Calgary might be waiting until the season to trade either Backlund or Lindholm, it's possible that the Avs will have time to evaluate whether RyJo can be the solution at 2C or revisit trade discussions down the line.

I think the roster is still weak at 2C without Landeskog's presence. I think the team is better than last year and this team can win a championship if a lot of things go right. But a big move in the top 6 would significantly increase their chances. And they have the assets to do it.
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Even if you think they wanted RyJo and Backlund... the Avs went out and got Colton on draft day, then commented about him being a center repeatedly. RyJo and Colton are the middle 6 centers on this team for better or worse.
 
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