Rumor: 2023-2024 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: Off-season is in full swing

[GoNordiquesGo]

I can get that debate, but no teams are 100% stagnant.

I mean lightning is like 1/15,000. Mack and Rants playing together for a stretch this year is almost guaranteed. Drouin struggling and pushed down the lineup is much more likely than him succeeding.

It all depends on your expectations and definiton of succeeding.I personally think that if Drouin gets +45 points, it will be a success given his cap hit. I honest;y think the likelyhood of that is high, given the role that is available for him.

 

[Foppa2118]

Nate’s the oldest of the core 4. Let’s say our window closes completely after his age 32 season ends. That’s another 5 seasons. The other 3 will still even have one or two prime years left at that point. It’s just nonsense that our window is closing in 2 years. To each their own I guess.

Apparently we need to remind them again of the age of Tampa's players when they won their last Cup.

McDonagh - 32
Killorn - 31
Stamkos - 31
Hedman - 30
Johnson - 30
Palat - 30
Coleman - 29
Gourde - 29
Kucherov - 28
Goodrow - 28

And everyone still on that team was a year older when they made the finals again the following year.

BTW, what a goal post shift on this window closing narrative. I'm pretty sure the window is supposed to already be closed according to those who first started pushing this idea like five years ago. Now we're saying it will close 2-5 years from now, which at least makes a little more sense. I guess if we just wait long enough, eventually they'll be right.

 

[niwotsblessing]

Sidney Crosby won his last Cup at 29. Datsuyk 29. Ovi 31. Sakic 31. Foppa 27. Gretzky 27. Mario 26. There are exceptions for sure, but some of the absolute best players ever won their last Cup in their late 20s. Some get barely into their 30s… 31-32 maybe. After that if they win, they win more in the fashion that Kessel won last season.

The Ray Bourque situation of winning old AF and being a key piece is one of the rarest things in hockey.

Sakic would have won a Cup at age 32 if Roy hadn't gone all "Statue of Liberty" on our Cup run. Asshat.

 

[NorthernAvsFan]

Uhhhh.... Hintz might be the best of them all.


It isn't even worth debating. You are clearly massively underselling the Stars core yo fit your narrative. I'm not even a huge fan of the Stars team but they're clearly significantly better and better set for the future then you're giving them credit for.

Right. And Hintz is the same age as Rantanen and a year younger than MacKinnon. People in this argument are trying to age out MacK and Rants, while the 1C on Dallas is the same age.

Am I trying for some kind of narrative?

I liked Dallas last year before a lot of people did, and I think they can carry what they have going on for several more years… just like Colorado.

 

[henchman21]

It all depends on your expectations and definiton of succeeding.I personally think that if Drouin gets +45 points, it will be a success given his cap hit. I honest;y think the likelyhood of that is high, given the role that is available for him.

Drouin with his effort level and only putting up 45 points would not stick on MacK’s line under Bednar. Either his motor massively has to ramp or he has to produce more.

Sakic would have won a Cup at age 32 if Roy hadn't gone all "Statue of Liberty" on our Cup run. Asshat.

But would the Avs have the first two Cups without Roy?

 

[ANewHope]

That's the point

Hintz - Rants and honestly in MacKinnon's range.
Makar and Robertson/Miro are in the same ball park.

Dallas gets the edge because Byram doesn't belong in that group but he's younger than all of them. Now are supporting pieces like Lehky/Nuke/Girard/Manson/Drouin/RyJo etc. are all younger than there's.

This idea that Duchene/Benn/Seguin/Pavelski etc. don't have to do anything and Robertson and the young core can just carry a team is abit ridiculous IMO. We saw how much Benn regressing in the playoffs impacted them. Pavelski was huge. Domi was really good and Duchene will need to be also. Robertson/Miro/Hintz can't carry a team to a cup.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

That's not what it is at all.

RyJo is replacing Newhook (2C)
Colton is replacing JTC (3C)
Wood is replacing eRod (middle 6 wing)
Drouin is replacing Landeskog (1st line wing)

That might explain the disconnect...

I'm comparing this year'sline-up with last year's. Landeskog didn't play a single game, so he doesn't need replacing.
Newhook didn't play 2C at all last year, Compher did, etc...
You're comparing to what we were hoping the line-up would be. I'm comparing to the real line-up the Avs fielded, that got them first place in the division but a 1st round exit in 7.

 

[shadow1]

Sidney Crosby won his last Cup at 29. Datsuyk 29. Ovi 31. Sakic 31. Foppa 27. Gretzky 27. Mario 26. There are exceptions for sure, but some of the absolute best players ever won their last Cup in their late 20s. Some get barely into their 30s… 31-32 maybe. After that if they win, they win more in the fashion that Kessel won last season.

The Ray Bourque situation of winning old AF and being a key piece is one of the rarest things in hockey.

Anderson: 34
Andreychuk: 38
Belfour: 33
Blake: 32
Brodeur: 30
Carbonneau: 38
Chelios: 46 (and 40)
Fedorov: 32
Forsberg: 27
Francis: 28
Gilmour: 25
Hasek: 37
Hossa: 36
Hull: 37
Larionov: 41 (and 37)
Leetch: 25
Lidstrom: 37
Lowe: 34
MacInnis: 25
Messer: 33
Modano: 29
Niedermayer: 33
Nieuwendyk: 32
Recchi: 42 (and 37)
Robitaille: 35
Roy: 37
Sakic: 31
Selanne: 36
Shanahan: 33
St. Louis: 28
Stevens: 38 (and 35)
Pronger: 32
Yzerman: 36


Here's the list of every Stanely Cup winning HHOFer inducted since 2006.

Of these 33 players, only (6) were still in their 20's when they won their last Championship. On the contrary, (14) were age 35 or older.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

Have you missed that I have said I like what that Avs have done and am much happier than last offseason... or do you just ignore that to frame your argument the way you want?

Sorry, must have missed it amongst your other dozen posts saying they were among the least improved team, extremely risky moves, very possible to struggle and be in a fight for a wildcard, likely candidate to see age regression hit hard, very likely to have window closing with Mack's new contract, etc... I apologize for not giving enough importance to the 5% of your Avs posts that are positive or optimistic...

 

[Balthazar]

That might explain the disconnect...

I'm comparing this year'sline-up with last year's. Landeskog didn't play a single game, so he doesn't need replacing.
Newhook didn't play 2C at all last year, Compher did, etc...
You're comparing to what we were hoping the line-up would be. I'm comparing to the real line-up the Avs fielded, that got them first place in the division but a 1st round exit in 7.

I'm comparing last summer's lineup before we know what would happen with this summer's lineup before we know what will happen. Apples and apples.

 

[Foppa2118]

This place can be so gaslighting. We spent years here talking about how center depth was supposed to be this huge hole in the lineup holding the Avs back.

Now many of the same people with that view think the Stars are as good or better than the Avs, despite their poor center depth, and the Avs having their best center depth in years. Not to mention the Stars worse defense and less high end talent.

Hintz is their 1C and not as good as MacKinnon. Whether their 2C is Johnston or Seguin, neither has put up more points than Compher recently. Not sure who their 3C is (Faksa, Dellandrea?) but they're not super impressive either.

Why was center depth so important for the Avs but not the Stars? I feel like some people think being negative means they're being more "realistic" despite not having a good argument to support their views.

 

[henchman21]

Sorry, must have missed it amongst your other dozen posts saying they were among the least improved team, extremely risky moves, very possible to struggle and be in a fight for a wildcard, likely candidate to see age regression hit hard, very likely to have window closing with Mack's new contract, etc... I apologize for not giving enough importance to the 5% of your Avs posts that are positive or optimistic...

I’m pretty clear on my posts, but that would interfere with you trying to frame my opinion.

Not jokingly, I state things, I provide info, discuss and I have my opinion in many different posts. I’m pretty clear that I like this offseason and I think the Avs are improved. But I’m willing to provide info that is against my own thoughts and I don’t have rose colored glasses. I’ll state risky when I see risky. I’ll state shit when I think it is shit. I’ll state good when I think it is good. I’m mostly wrong in all of those.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

I'll echo what henchman said, we are just assuming that Drouin and RyJo will just work in the spots we are assuming they'll get.

Both are notoriously lazy don't give a shit players, that kind of shit doesn't really work with Bednar.

I hope it works in our favor and both guys excel, however it's completely disingenuous to ignore that there are huge question marks surrounding both guys.

I 100% agree that there are question marks surrounding Drouin, RyJo, Woods, health znd PK Subban's taste in clothing.

 

[ANewHope]

For me it's less about who's actually better and more just the reasons. RyJo/Drouin could tank and the Avs could wave the white flag at the deadline and Dallas is the better team. Age and like Foppa pointed out C depth are all of a sudden irrelevant tho.

It was similar with the Kings. Kopitar/Doughty play big time roles for them and it's just penciled in they regress yet we have to worry about MacKinnon/Rants the second they turn 28. Kings may be very better equipped to deal with the age regression than Colorado but Kopitar is 35 and is crucial for them. If we had a 35 year old in that role you'd never hear that end of it. Just like if Lehky/Nuke/Girard/Drouin/Byram etc. were all 30+ it would be doomsday.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Right. And Hintz is the same age as Rantanen and a year younger than MacKinnon. People in this argument are trying to age out MacK and Rants, while the 1C on Dallas is the same age.

Am I trying for some kind of narrative?

I liked Dallas last year before a lot of people did, and I think they can carry what they have going on for several more years… just like Colorado.

Why don't you compare them by positions:

Hintz - 2 Years younger the Mack
Robertson - 2 Years younger then Mikko
Heiskanen - 1 year younger then Makar
Oettinger - 3 Years younger them Georgiev


And that's it for core players. If you want to argue Byram/Johnston then again it favors Dallas by about 2 years.


They're core is on average about 2 years younger then ours. Which is a significant amount when you're talking about cup windows only lasting ~5-6 years quite frankly.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

I’m pretty clear on my posts, but that would interfere with you trying to frame my opinion.

Not jokingly, I state things, I provide info, discuss and I have my opinion in many different posts. I’m pretty clear that I like this offseason and I think the Avs are improved. But I’m willing to provide info that is against my own thoughts and I don’t have rose colored glasses. I’ll state risky when I see risky. I’ll state shit when I think it is shit. I’ll state good when I think it is good. I’m mostly wrong in all of those.

I respect all of those. Greatly. And for the record I 100% see that you are very knowledgeable in hockey, way, way, way more than I am.
But 80% of what you post Avs wise has a pessimist/critical view and 80% of what you post regarding any other teams has a positive view.
So when you say you're objective about it I disagree. I think you feel most here are biased toward the Avs and you're trying to balance things out, therefore you overly show the other side of the coin. It is absolutely OK and it helps feed healthy debate. But I don't think it is being objective, I think it shows a bias.
But I apologize for somehow focusing on it and getting annoyed by it. I will let go...peace.

 

[henchman21]

I respect all of those. Greatly. And for the record I 100% see that you are very knowledgeable in hockey, way, way, way more than I am.
But 80% of what you post Avs wise has a pessimist/critical view and 80% of what you post regarding any other teams has a positive view.
So when you say you're objective about it I disagree. I think you feel most here are biased toward the Avs and you're trying to balance things out, therefore you overly show the other side of the coin. It is absolutely OK and it helps feed healthy debate. But I don't think it is being objective, I think it shows a bias.
But I apologize for somehow focusing on it and getting annoyed by it. I will let go...peace.

I’m not saying I’m objective, I’m not. I’m saying I state things how I see them. Naturally I have a bias as I see things, but that isn’t towards or against the Avs… more how I see hockey as a game and the way I believe works to build a team or style. In no way do I try to balance out, when I state style, positional importance, size, skating… it’s all how I just view things as successful or not. I have very clear biases there and I don’t hide that, at all. I’m not always right (again mostly wrong), but I do try to learn from where I’m wrong.

I’d also say 80% of what I post are jokes or shitposts.

 

[ANewHope]

Why don't you compare them by positions:

Hintz - 2 Years younger the Mack
Robertson - 2 Years younger then Mikko
Heiskanen - 1 year younger then Makar
Oettinger - 3 Years younger them Georgiev


And that's it for core players. If you want to argue Byram/Johnston then again it favors Dallas by about 2 years.


They're core is on average about 2 years younger then ours. Which is a significant amount when you're talking about cup windows only lasting ~5-6 years quite frankly.

The depth for Dallas is much older. I already said they have an edge with the core in terms of age. I don't agree by doing it by positions. Honestly caliber of player would probably be the best comparable. Either way it's not drastic. Hintz is 27 and massive for them. If Hintz was 23 than yeah I could see the argument.

It's just a stretch. Even if we do it your way and than include the depth it's just not a big enough gap to worry about it for one team and ignore it for the other. Either age matters for Dallas/Colorado or it doesn't for either.

 

[Foppa2118]

That's not what it is at all.

RyJo is replacing Newhook (2C)
Colton is replacing JTC (3C)
Wood is replacing eRod (middle 6 wing)
Drouin is replacing Landeskog (1st line wing)

RyJo is obviously replacing JTC at 2C. Newy played 2C for just a few games to start the prior season.

Newhook wasn't even their 3C last year. That was filled by committee and Eller became their 3C after the deadline. Newhook played a lot on the 4th line.

Landeksog still has a chance to come back for the playoffs and if anything Drouin is replacing ERod.

 

[NorthernAvsFan]

Why don't you compare them by positions:

Hintz - 2 Years younger the Mack
Robertson - 2 Years younger then Mikko
Heiskanen - 1 year younger then Makar
Oettinger - 3 Years younger them Georgiev


And that's it for core players. If you want to argue Byram/Johnston then again it favors Dallas by about 2 years.


They're core is on average about 2 years younger then ours. Which is a significant amount when you're talking about cup windows only lasting ~5-6 years quite frankly.

Heiskanen and Makar are the same age.

Their core is also just worse in caliber, which is why I mentioned that MacKinnon will probably still be better than Hintz when Hintz is 30 and MacK is 32.

I think both clubs will remain competitive for 4-5 more years.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

This Avs- Dal is pretty funny. It started with Dallas is top of division and Avs not really a contender anymore. Then comparison started and showed both teams are close,with different strength and weaknesses.
So are they both contenders or both non-contenders ?
I think they are cleary the top two teams in the division and contenders.
But my definition of contender seem wider then some. I think each conference usually has about 3-5 contenders every year. You can start to nitpick between those teams, but will equate to nitpicking between a team with 11% and 10% of winning the cup...

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

This Avs- Dal is pretty funny. It started with Dallas is top of division and Avs not really a contender anymore. Then comparison started and showed both teams are close,with different strength and weaknesses.
So are they both contenders or both non-contenders ?
I think they are cleary the top two teams in the division and contenders.
But my definition of contender seem wider then some. I think each conference usually has about 3-5 contenders every year. You can start to nitpick between those teams, but will equate to nitpicking between a team with 11% and 10% of winning the cup...

And now it's getting to our favorite parts! When people just start making shit up for the fun of it!

The best stuff.

 

[Freaky Styley]

This Avs- Dal is pretty funny. It started with Dallas is top of division and Avs not really a contender anymore. Then comparison started and showed both teams are close,with different strength and weaknesses.
So are they both contenders or both non-contenders ?
I think they are cleary the top two teams in the division and contenders.
But my definition of contender seem wider then some. I think each conference usually has about 3-5 contenders every year. You can start to nitpick between those teams, but will equate to nitpicking between a team with 11% and 10% of winning the cup...

I just don't get why we are spending so much time discussing what is probably at best a 7th place team. There are far better teams in the league - yes, I understand Dallas is who we'd have to get through first - but we aren't just trying to win the division here.

If you really want to see who is better on paper then start a poll on the main boards of which roster people would rather have and see the results.

 

[Avs9296]

EVERYONE IS BETTER THAN THE AVS!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

*PANIC HANDS*

Yep.

 

[the_fan]

Avs suck!
Fire Bednar!