Post-Game Talk: 2023-2024 Leafs Roster/Changes/Turnovers & Replacement(s)

[Leaf Rocket]

If Hyman had played as he did in Edmonton in Toronto, he would have been an easy extension to make.

But he didn't.

Pretty much.

Love the dude but he didn't perform like that here. Eventually, it was gonna cost us more.

Also expecting RNH to run it back is kind of asking if unicorns are real. I've been watching him since he was in Juniors and the oilers dropped the ball rushing that man.

 

[francis246]

Is slowing down the game inherently good? Florida’s D was constantly out of position, slowing down the game lets them recover. Can he speed the game up if the situation calls for it? I’ve seen Nylander and Matthews slow the tempo enough times, Nylander even weaponizes it switching fast to slow and back again on a dime.

Cycling to the point to exploit Vasi’s vision problem is fine but it doesn’t work on everyone. It’s a tool in the bag not the entire bag.

We’ve seen Marner create off the rush as well. Acting like he doesn’t and applying what I said to him as if that’s all he’s capable of doing isn’t going to benefit the discussion.

In terms of slowing down I mean more in the way that Marner has an ability to freeze defenders and goaltenders allowing for guys to get open in the slot. He’s also really good at creating chances off the cycle

 

[Mess]

Mitch Marner has 10 playoff goals in 7 playoff seasons. Lets look at Marner's playoff years the same 5 years as Hyman in Toronto.. 4 of those 5 series Marner had 4 playoff points total.

William Nylander has 17 playoff goals over 7 years. He also had 4 points or less in 4 of his 5 playoffs that overlapped Hyman.

John Tavares in 31 playoff games has 11 goals and 11 assists for 22 points over 5 playoff seasons in TO for $11 mil AAV.

Zach Hyman in 28 games has 14 playoff goals 13 assists for 27 points in 2 playoff seasons since leaving the Leafs for $5.5 mil. His 2 years in EDM > JT 5 years in TO.

 

[Menzinger]

Still would have been too much for too long.

Yep. Ultimately another case of a good player, lousy contract

 

[Antropovsky]

We’ve seen Marner create off the rush as well. Acting like he doesn’t and applying what I said to him as if that’s all he’s capable of doing isn’t going to benefit the discussion.

In terms of slowing down I mean more in the way that Marner has an ability to freeze defenders and goaltenders allowing for guys to get open in the slot. He’s also really good at creating chances off the cycle

Yup where are all these plays in the playoffs? Care to post them?

Here are all the miscues Marner has made that cost the Leafs in big playoff games (his ability to slow the game really shines on these plays). This is quite the list:


Game 6 vs Montreal 2021- 2-0 goal against.
Marner on PK with all time in the world flips the puck out play and gets delay of game. Montreal scores on 5-3.



Game 7 vs Montreal 2021 - 1-0 effectively the gwg against
Marner tries to take at blue line and it's easily picked off.



Game 5 vs Tampa 2022 - 3-3 game trying goal in game 5
Marner could've cleared the luck, but instead passes it backwards while falling.



Game 6 vs Tampa 2022 - gwg OT goal against.
Marner makes a risky flip pass to Matthews, it's picked off and Tampa comes back and scores.



Game 2, vs Florida 2023 - 3-2 gwg against.
1:50 of this video - Marner makes risky play to Matthews instead of just clearing it and it's stolen and Florida scores. Makes it 3-2 Florida.



Here's Trotz assessment of why Leafs can't win... He specifically calls out their top guys and their reluctance to make safe plays (see Marner highlights posted above):

“The thing I saw with them last year is the commitment level in the playoffs. Their stars were blocking shots. They got their noses dirty a little more often. They made the simple play when they had to. They didn’t try to force things.”

But he wasn’t willing to crown them Stanley Cup champions just yet — at least not this year.

“I’m signing off on them learning to win,” said the Winnipeg native. “I’m not signing off on the Leafs because there’s a team like Boston there, and Tampa.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Do you know playing in a 3rd line, he will play the same time at the end? Its just trying to maximize ability of everyone and you cant use matthews, jt, marner and nylander on 4 different line...

Marner and nylander forget it... 2 peripheric player who need to have the puck on their stick to make thing happen... Who will rush to the net and create thing in dirty area... Its kind of line who can be good on counter attack and pretty trash if opposite team just minimize scoring chance off the rush...

You can dislike tavares but at least hes rush the net on going in dirty area... hes slow yes but thats not affecting marner as much of nylander because marner having the ability to slow down the play... hes a better fit to play with marner than nylander...

I didn't suggest Marner and Nylander on the same line. Not sure where you came up with that. One should be playing with Matthews and the other with just about anyone faster than Tavares.

If you watched, you'd see that Nylander does "rush the net and create things in the dirty area". Tavares does too - it just takes him a lot longer to get there.

I'm not sure why you think a third line gets as much ice time as the first or second. On the other hand, you might be right - if Nylander and Tavares are on separate lines, any half decent coach will have Willy playing a lot more ice time than JT.

 

[francis246]

I didn't suggest Marner and Nylander on the same line. Not sure where you came up with that. One should be playing with Matthews and the other with just about anyone faster than Tavares.

If you watched, you'd see that Nylander does "rush the net and create things in the dirty area". Tavares does too - it just takes him a lot longer to get there.

I'm not sure why you think a third line gets as much ice time as the first or second. On the other hand, you might be right - if Nylander and Tavares are on separate lines, any half decent coach will have Willy playing a lot more ice time than JT.

If Willy was to be on a third line you’d have to really overcompensate with him on PP1 IMO. He just wouldn’t get enough ice time otherwise. I think ultimately best bet is to put Matthews and Nylander together. Marner and Tavares together. I don’t think Marner and Matthews benefit from playing along side each other in the playoffs. It hasn’t worked. Then find them complimentary wingers.

Yep. Ultimately another case of a good player, lousy contract

It just sucks KD wanted no part in trying to get assets for him or trying to flip him for a younger but comparable player with term.

 

[justashadowof]

It hasn't occurred to anyone that whoever are Connor McDavid's wingers are going to have a significant scoring boost? Anyone with some greasy finish on McDavid's wing is going to flourish. I can easily see someone like Michael Bunting scoring 45+ goals full time on McDavid's wing. Zach Hyman brought his consistent level of competitve play to Edmonton while riding along with the best player in the world and the result is a statistical boost.

 

[francis246]

Yup where are all these plays in the playoffs? Care to post them?

Here are all the miscues Marner has made that cost the Leafs in big playoff games (his ability to slow the game really shines on these plays). This is quite the list:


Game 6 vs Montreal 2021- 2-0 goal against.
Marner on PK with all time in the world flips the puck out play and gets delay of game. Montreal scores on 5-3.



Game 7 vs Montreal 2021 - 1-0 effectively the gwg against
Marner tries to take at blue line and it's easily picked off.



Game 5 vs Tampa 2022 - 3-3 game trying goal in game 5
Marner could've cleared the luck, but instead passes it backwards while falling.



Game 6 vs Tampa 2022 - gwg OT goal against.
Marner makes a risky flip pass to Matthews, it's picked off and Tampa comes back and scores.



Game 2, vs Florida 2023 - 3-2 gwg against.
1:50 of this video - Marner makes risky play to Matthews instead of just clearing it and it's stolen and Florida scores. Makes it 3-2 Florida.



Here's Trotz assessment of why Leafs can't win... He specifically calls out their top guys and their reluctance to make safe plays (see Marner highlights posted above):

“The thing I saw with them last year is the commitment level in the playoffs. Their stars were blocking shots. They got their noses dirty a little more often. They made the simple play when they had to. They didn’t try to force things.”

But he wasn’t willing to crown them Stanley Cup champions just yet — at least not this year.

“I’m signing off on them learning to win,” said the Winnipeg native. “I’m not signing off on the Leafs because there’s a team like Boston there, and Tampa.

I’m going to say this as nicely as I can…

I think this speaks for a good majority of us. We GET IT. You think Marner sucks, you want him traded, yada yada.

 

[thusk]

I didn't suggest Marner and Nylander on the same line. Not sure where you came up with that. One should be playing with Matthews and the other with just about anyone faster than Tavares.

If you watched, you'd see that Nylander does "rush the net and create things in the dirty area". Tavares does too - it just takes him a lot longer to get there.

I'm not sure why you think a third line gets as much ice time as the first or second. On the other hand, you might be right - if Nylander and Tavares are on separate lines, any half decent coach will have Willy playing a lot more ice time than JT.

1-I just prefer trying something different with Matthews. Use matthee in a big powerful line who gonna be hard on forevheck with knies and someone else

2- nylander will not play less because hes on 3rd line, that whats your dont understand... oreilly was playing on 3rd and playing more at 5v5...

3- and nylander not rushing the net, he will do on a 2v1, 3v2... thats it. If leafs control the puck, you will never see nylander in front of the net or dirty area where he risk to take some shot on him.

 

[Burnie97]

We need some news lol. Talking about Hyman again. It's not like he was a key to success here.

He's an oiler now. Wish him well ... otherwise Meh.

Anyone can get propped up by McDavid.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Yup where are all these plays in the playoffs? Care to post them?

Here are all the miscues Marner has made that cost the Leafs in big playoff games (his ability to slow the game really shines on these plays). This is quite the list:


Game 6 vs Montreal 2021- 2-0 goal against.
Marner on PK with all time in the world flips the puck out play and gets delay of game. Montreal scores on 5-3.



Game 7 vs Montreal 2021 - 1-0 effectively the gwg against
Marner tries to take at blue line and it's easily picked off.



Game 5 vs Tampa 2022 - 3-3 game trying goal in game 5
Marner could've cleared the luck, but instead passes it backwards while falling.



Game 6 vs Tampa 2022 - gwg OT goal against.
Marner makes a risky flip pass to Matthews, it's picked off and Tampa comes back and scores.



Game 2, vs Florida 2023 - 3-2 gwg against.
1:50 of this video - Marner makes risky play to Matthews instead of just clearing it and it's stolen and Florida scores. Makes it 3-2 Florida.



Here's Trotz assessment of why Leafs can't win... He specifically calls out their top guys and their reluctance to make safe plays (see Marner highlights posted above):

“The thing I saw with them last year is the commitment level in the playoffs. Their stars were blocking shots. They got their noses dirty a little more often. They made the simple play when they had to. They didn’t try to force things.”

But he wasn’t willing to crown them Stanley Cup champions just yet — at least not this year.

“I’m signing off on them learning to win,” said the Winnipeg native. “I’m not signing off on the Leafs because there’s a team like Boston there, and Tampa.

That is Trotz praising thd Leafs and thinking that they will win. You skipped the main idea in the article "They’ll break through. It’ll happen. I don’t know if it’ll happen this year, but it’ll happen. It just will.”. Trotz talks Maple Leafs, calls Canucks' slow-firing of Boudreau 'tough to watch’

 

[the Mighty Oak]

We need some news lol. Talking about Hyman again. It's not like he was a key to success here.

He's an oiler now. Wish him well ... otherwise Meh.

Anyone can get propped up by McDavid.

The guy put up some pretty decent numbers the last three years with the leaf's on top of his grit

 

[Burnie97]

The guy put up some pretty decent numbers the last three years with the leaf's on top of his grit

Yeah he was solid no doubt but we didn't win with him so oh well. Hoping for some more present news soon.

 

[the Mighty Oak]

Yeah he was solid no doubt but we didn't win with him so oh well. Hoping for some more present news soon.

Yeah, but he was a good puzzle piece and the type of player this team needs now. Dubus was under the impression that all you needed was offence from the core 4, and you can win a cup, And the Pro Dubis fans. believed him and thought he was a genius and went along with his thinking

 

[Mess]

If Hyman had played as he did in Edmonton in Toronto, he would have been an easy extension to make.

But he didn't.

Except he didn't get the same opportunities in Toronto particularly like play on the #1 PP unit. This debate is clearly all about usage in Toronto vs Edmonton.

Zach Hyman became a PPG player in Edmonton with 83 points in 79 games because he put up 15 goals and 11 assists 36 points on the PP last year compared to his previous years in Toronto.

John Tavares put up 80 points in 80 games because he put up 18 goals and 21 assists 39 points on the PP. JT scored 36 goals on the season the same as Hyman last year.

Without those PP points JT has 18 goals 23 assists 41 points for $11 mil AAV vs, Hyman 21 goals 36 assists 47 points points for $5.5 mil AAV. It's not the Hyman contract that is bad !!

Ditto for all the Core 4 who people want to keep in Toronto now vs. Hyman in Edmonton now. The only difference is the PP points and opportunities/usage & its not the player.

In Toronto Hyman was a 5v5 Es player and SH usage vs Leafs core 4 who are 5v5 ES players + PP usage.

PS. Same example why Kadri had go from Toronto because JT took his spot. But he was also a PP game player after leaving the Leafs and even a Stanley Cup winner with Avs.

Kadri was making $4,5 mil when hoisting a Cup in Colorado and Hyman was playing in the Final 4 with Edmonton making $5.5 mil and combined make less than Tavares.. They were never the problem. The problem was Leafs couldn't afford to keep them because they're paying Tavares $11 mil for the same PPG points.

 

[francis246]

Except he didn't get the same opportunities in Toronto particularly like play on the #1 PP unit. This debate is clearly all about usage in Toronto vs Edmonton.

View attachment 720392

Zach Hyman became a PPG player in Edmonton with 83 points in 79 games because he put up 15 goals and 11 assists 36 points on the PP last year compared to his previous years in Toronto.

View attachment 720393

John Tavares put up 80 points in 80 games because he put up 18 goals and 21 assists 39 points on the PP. JT scored 36 goals on the season the same as Hyman last year.

Without those PP points JT has 18 goals 23 assists 41 points for $11 mil AAV vs, Hyman 21 goals 36 assists 47 points points for $5.5 mil AAV. It's not the Hyman contract that is bad !!

Ditto for all the Core 4 who people want to keep in Toronto now vs. Hyman in Edmonton now. The only difference is the PP points and opportunities/usage & its not the player.

In Toronto Hyman was a 5v5 Es player and SH usage vs Leafs core 4 who are 5v5 ES players + PP usage.

PS. Same example why Kadri had go from Toronto because JT took his spot. But he was also a PP game player after leaving the Leafs and even a Stanley Cup winner with Avs.

View attachment 720400

Kadri was making $4,5 mil when hoisting a Cup in Colorado and Hyman was playing in the Final 4 with Edmonton making $5.5 mil and combined make less than Tavares.. They were never the problem. The problem was Leafs couldn't afford to keep them because they're paying Tavares $11 mil for the same PPG points.

Leafs could have afforded both under our cap structure up to the end of the 2021/22 season when Kadri was set to expire, even with Hymans extension. The Leafs could have and in hindsight should have kept both. It would have just meant the end of Engvall and/or Justin Holl and not acquiring Matt Murray but cheaper less proven goaltender.

Our cap structure would not have been impacted negatively. We’d still be around the same cap but just distributed differently.

Those two players were moved on from not because of salary but because of poor evaluation on Dubas/Shanny’s part. Kadri was moved because they wanted to acquire a defenseman and also move on from him because of his playoff antics. Nothing to do with salary.

They moved on from Hyman because of term. They were comfortable with the cap hit. However they felt the last few years of the deal would be horrible (which still could end up being true). But I would have taken the risk.

If you actually crunch the numbers we could have retained both Kadri and Hyman. Salary cap had very little to do with the decisions to move on from them.

Signing JT was the main issue for our cap. It was the RFA contracts that were signed. People love to focus on the big three RFA’s but go look at Andreas Johnson and Kasperi Kapanen’s contracts and even Connor Browns contract post ELC. All paid wayyy too much post ELC.

 

[notDatsyuk]

1-I just prefer trying something different with Matthews. Use matthee in a big powerful line who gonna be hard on forevheck with knies and someone else

2- nylander will not play less because hes on 3rd line, that whats your dont understand... oreilly was playing on 3rd and playing more at 5v5...

3- and nylander not rushing the net, he will do on a 2v1, 3v2... thats it. If leafs control the puck, you will never see nylander in front of the net or dirty area where he risk to take some shot on him.

If neither Marner nor Nylander is on the top line, and they aren't playing together, then one or the other will be playing with Tavares, and one or the other will be getting third line minutes. Neither situation is good -- that's what you don't understand.

And if you think Nylander only rushes the net on odd man chances, watch the highlights of the Florida series - he was the only Leaf with more than one goal, and one was from right in the 'dirty area' and the other was from driving the net on a 1v3.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Dreger on situation in Calgary, why the players are not re-signing in Calgary or Winnipeg and more - TSN.ca

TSN hockey insider Darren Dreger joins us to chat about the situation in Calgary and how multiple players are not going to re-sign with the team, why we seeing are also seeing this happen in Winnipeg, what the future holds for Michael Bunting, the latest on the William Nylander situation and more.

 

[Mess]

Leafs could have afforded both under our cap structure up to the end of the 2021/22 season when Kadri was set to expire, even with Hymans extension. The Leafs could have and in hindsight should have kept both. It would have just meant the end of Engvall and/or Justin Holl and not acquiring Matt Murray but cheaper less proven goaltender.

Our cap structure would not have been impacted negatively. We’d still be around the same cap but just distributed differently.

Those two players were moved on from not because of salary but because of poor evaluation on Dubas/Shanny’s part. Kadri was moved because they wanted to acquire a defenseman and also move on from him because of his playoff antics. Nothing to do with salary.

They moved on from Hyman because of term. They were comfortable with the cap hit. However they felt the last few years of the deal would be horrible (which still could end up being true). But I would have taken the risk.

If you actually crunch the numbers we could have retained both Kadri and Hyman. Salary cap had very little to do with the decisions to move on from them.

Signing JT was the main issue for our cap. It was the RFA contracts that were signed. People love to focus on the big three RFA’s but go look at Andreas Johnson and Kasperi Kapanen’s contracts and even Connor Browns contract post ELC. All paid wayyy too much post ELC.

Wouldn't dispute most of that as were in agreement on most, particularly since its questionable cap management issues and decions made by the former GM.

Food for thought Tavares is about to turn 33 in Sept and has 2 more years to go at $11 mil AAV. Zach Hyman just turn 31 last week and already about to enter year #3 of 7 at $5.5 mil.

So Leafs thought 4 years of an older JT at $11 mil AAV overlapping the 1st X 4 years (of 7 years) of Hyman $5.5 mil was smart Cap usage.

Last season Tavares had 36 goals and 80 points and Hyman had 36 goals and 83 points. Same production currently at 1/2 the Cap cost.

When Tavares current contract ends in 2 years he will be 35 years old, then what Leafs cut his salary in 1/2 to $5.5 on a 3 year extension taking him to retirement at age 38?

Hyman's 7 year contract ends June 2028 and he will be 36 years old at completion. Leafs were concerned about the last few years at age 35 & 36 @ $5.5 mil but have no issue paying JT double over a similar age bracket?

The risk that you and I would have taken in comparison to JT cost and contribution would have been justified.

 

[the Mighty Oak]

Dreger on situation in Calgary, why the players are not re-signing in Calgary or Winnipeg and more - TSN.ca

TSN hockey insider Darren Dreger joins us to chat about the situation in Calgary and how multiple players are not going to re-sign with the team, why we seeing are also seeing this happen in Winnipeg, what the future holds for Michael Bunting, the latest on the William Nylander situation and more.

Hopefully bunting stops with the theatrics and drama on the ice at his next team.

 

[Antropovsky]

That is Trotz praising thd Leafs and thinking that they will win. You skipped the main idea in the article "They’ll break through. It’ll happen. I don’t know if it’ll happen this year, but it’ll happen. It just will.”. Trotz talks Maple Leafs, calls Canucks' slow-firing of Boudreau 'tough to watch’

No... That's not true. He literally says he signing off on them "learning to win". Trotz listed off reasons what he saw improvement on from previous playoffs (1) stars were getting noses a little more dirty, stars were going to dirty areas more often and blocking shots (2) stars were making the simple play more often, not trying to force things.

I’m going to say this as nicely as I can…





View attachment 720358


I think this speaks for a good majority of us. We GET IT. You think Marner sucks, you want him traded, yada yada.

You and a select few have been telling me this for the last 4 years. While you pumped Marner I repeatedly said he wasn't good.

You laughed then..4 year's ago. Whose been correct over those 4 years now that we can look back in hindsight? Was Marner Gretzky lite in these playoffs like you thought in the season?

When I said trade Marner for Eichel... You had laughed.

When I said trade Tkachuk for Marner... You laughed.

When I said he doesn't have the skillset for playoff hockey... You hadlaughed.

Safe to say, I don't care what you and the four other obsessed Marner fans think.. 70% say trade.
For all I care you can go back to the Marner appreciation thread and continue comparing Marner to Gretzky. Yes you all really compared Marner to Gretzky... I don't know if gets funnier than that.

 

[mydnyte]

Except he didn't get the same opportunities in Toronto particularly like play on the #1 PP unit. This debate is clearly all about usage in Toronto vs Edmonton.

View attachment 720392

Zach Hyman became a PPG player in Edmonton with 83 points in 79 games because he put up 15 goals and 11 assists 36 points on the PP last year compared to his previous years in Toronto.

View attachment 720393

John Tavares put up 80 points in 80 games because he put up 18 goals and 21 assists 39 points on the PP. JT scored 36 goals on the season the same as Hyman last year.

Without those PP points JT has 18 goals 23 assists 41 points for $11 mil AAV vs, Hyman 21 goals 36 assists 47 points points for $5.5 mil AAV. It's not the Hyman contract that is bad !!

Ditto for all the Core 4 who people want to keep in Toronto now vs. Hyman in Edmonton now. The only difference is the PP points and opportunities/usage & its not the player.

In Toronto Hyman was a 5v5 Es player and SH usage vs Leafs core 4 who are 5v5 ES players + PP usage.

PS. Same example why Kadri had go from Toronto because JT took his spot. But he was also a PP game player after leaving the Leafs and even a Stanley Cup winner with Avs.

View attachment 720400

Kadri was making $4,5 mil when hoisting a Cup in Colorado and Hyman was playing in the Final 4 with Edmonton making $5.5 mil and combined make less than Tavares.. They were never the problem. The problem was Leafs couldn't afford to keep them because they're paying Tavares $11 mil for the same PPG points.

the Oiler's PP is like cheat mode
Nuge who never scored 30 goals, or 70 points in his career, gets 53 powerplay points and 15 ppG (he only had 11 goals total the pre season, and gor 104 total points 35 higher than his career best)
Hyman who was the net presence only had 26 PPP but 15 goals from that spot, he was otherwise useless on the PP.
Drais with 32 PPg's

 

[thusk]

If neither Marner nor Nylander is on the top line, and they aren't playing together, then one or the other will be playing with Tavares, and one or the other will be getting third line minutes. Neither situation is good -- that's what you don't understand.

And if you think Nylander only rushes the net on odd man chances, watch the highlights of the Florida series - he was the only Leaf with more than one goal, and one was from right in the 'dirty area' and the other was from driving the net on a 1v3.

You know tavares stay a good player, hes overpaid for sure but still a good player. Im fine with marner playing with tavares

You know reinhart was 1 of best 3 best offensive player of florida... was playing in 3rd line and was the foward with highest ice time in playoff. Playing on 3rd doesn't mean playing less

Nylander avoided area where he risk to be hit... the goal you talked about was on pp he was all alone resulting of a lucky bounce behind the net on forechecking... not what i called going in dirty area.... how many time did you see nylander going on traffic trying to screen, deflect the puck or whatever by paying the price in front of the net..

Where nylander is dangerous at 5v5 is off the rush... and he can still as dangerous playing in 3rd line

 

[Dekes For Days]

the Oiler's PP is like cheat mode
Nuge who never scored 30 goals, or 70 points in his career, gets 53 powerplay points and 15 ppG (he only had 11 goals total the pre season, and gor 104 total points 35 higher than his career best)
Hyman who was the net presence only had 26 PPP but 15 goals from that spot, he was otherwise useless on the PP.
Drais with 32 PPg's

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that everybody that happened to play on the PP with McDavid, arguably the best PP player ever, in a generational season for McDavid and the Edmonton PP, suddenly saw a dramatic spike in their point pace. Surely we can isolate this one season at the beginning of one player's contract, attribute his abnormal point total to him and not his unique circumstances, and then compare it to another player nearing the end of his contract in entirely different circumstances, to draw conclusions about these players, their impacts, and their contracts. Not problematic at all.