Post-Game Talk: 2023-2024 Leafs Roster/Changes/Turnovers & Replacement(s)

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hockeywiz542

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Leafs are trying really hard to sign pending unrestricted free agents Luke Schenn and Noel Acciari. As of now they don’t appear to have the wiggle room to get to $2 million (U.S.) or beyond like other teams canPrior to Dubas’s departure there was a strong sense he was planning on having goalie Matt Murray return to Toronto for his final year. Could that prior interest set up a trade between Dubas’s Penguins and Treliving’s Leafs?
 

andora

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I’d like them to revisit Robertson and Matthews. With someone like Knies or Jarnkrok a line with three guys who can pound the puck and shoot hard. Knies or Jarnkrok are puck retrieval guys/board guys, Robertson and Matthews are the finishers and would both create space for each other because goalies will have to choose who will finish. That OT goal Robertson scored, i don’t know how Keefe doesn’t look at that and notice what a nightmare that can be for the opposition off the rush nightly.
Yes i totally agree - we are at a point here where you have to accept to start working with what you have. And what you have are two lines that are WORTH give a sustained opportunity

Robertson Matthews Knies
Jarnkrok Tavares Marner

And to be perfectly hones just tell matthews to have fun with the kids. Be the defensive player you are but have fun and create with them
 
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ShaneFalco

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Leafs are trying really hard to sign pending unrestricted free agents Luke Schenn and Noel Acciari. As of now they don’t appear to have the wiggle room to get to $2 million (U.S.) or beyond like other teams canPrior to Dubas’s departure there was a strong sense he was planning on having goalie Matt Murray return to Toronto for his final year. Could that prior interest set up a trade between Dubas’s Penguins and Treliving’s Leafs?
Hmmmm no wiggle room - I wonder why!?
 
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thusk

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I have been going @thusk a bit lately but agree with him here.. if we are keeping the 4 horsemen there should be three lines worth of content

Matthews still benefits from a passer but if he gets two guys that can make good short quick passes offensively it would be fine

We cant always disagree ;)


get player who will go in corner, rush the net, send the puck to the net, screen goalie when matthews taking a shot will have a higher impact than someone making play for matthews without any screen by exemple...whatever how good matthews shot is, against good goaltender in control, you still need screen to help you. Thats exactly
whats knies bring... i dont thing matthews really need a passer but get a screen will certainly help to increasu his number of playoff goal
 

mydnyte

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I have been going @thusk a bit lately but agree with him here.. if we are keeping the 4 horsemen there should be three lines worth of content

Matthews still benefits from a passer but if he gets two guys that can make good short quick passes offensively it would be fine
what Matthews needs is a threat on the other side so that he cant be constantly double teamed, and someone who can execute a give and go properly ...first he had Hyman where Matthews passes off at the blue line entry (he always does this and it drives me nuts) then Hyman would never pass the puck back, and basically the shift was over ...Bunting was a teeny bit better, but, he used to pass it back, or cross ice, never back to Matthews who in every case was going down the middle.
this is hockey 101 and we cant even get a basic give and go, and keep doing it over and over and over.
Watch other teams with snipers like Pasta... he's always waiting for his one timer, and his mates are always looking to pass to him, with Matthews, its almost like he's used as a distraction.
 

hockeywiz542

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1. Extend him

Nylander’s last contract famously took forever to get done.

His agent, Lewis Gross, won’t be pushed around. Treliving knows this as well as anyone. Gross represented Johnny Gaudreau when Treliving, then the Flames’ GM, tried and failed to sign the star winger last summer.

Two questions to start us off here:

1. Do the Leafs and their new GM still want to be in the Nylander business?
2. If they do, how much are they prepared to pay?


We won’t really know how Treliving feels about Nylander until we see some action — i.e. a new contract or trade. But let’s say, for argument’s sake, that the Leafs want to keep Nylander around. What might his next contract look like?

Maybe the most pertinent comparable is the eight-year deal that Filip Forsberg signed with Nashville last July. Forsberg’s $8.5 million cap hit represented 10.3 percent of the cap at the time. Why Forsberg? He’s a similar-ish offensive player who had produced 0.83 points per game when he signed that contract.

Nylander’s career points per game to this point: 0.83.

Forsberg signed his deal as a pending UFA entering his age-27 season. Nylander, as we noted, still has a year left on the six-year deal he signed on Dec. 1, 2018. He’ll be 28 when his next deal begins at a time, crucially, when the cap is expected to rise a fair bit, perhaps in the range of $87 million or $88 million.

For our purposes, let’s split the difference at $87.5 million. A Forsberg-like deal, for eight years, would amount to just over $9 million on the cap annually. Now maybe Gross pushes for a slightly bigger chunk of the pie. Jeff Skinner nabbed 11.3 percent of the cap in 2019 ($9 million cap hit) over an eight-year deal. Jakub Voracek got 11.6 percent on his eight-year deal in 2015 ($8.25 million cap hit).

Twelve percent of that rising cap would equal $10.5 million annually, which would be one of the biggest cap hits in the entire league. That’s a bit rich. Hart Trophy finalist Matthew Tkachuk, younger and better than Nylander, got a $9.5 million ticket on the eight-year deal he signed with Florida last summer. That was 11.5 percent of the cap.

A seven or eight-year deal, with a $9-million-ish annual ticket, feels about right and would place Nylander — for now, anyway — just inside the top 25 NHL forwards.

Right where he belongs.

Last season, Nylander ranked 19th among his peers with 87 points and tied for 14th with 40 goals.

.................

A related and very significant part of this conversation is whether the Leafs believe that Nylander will perform better than he has to this point in the postseason. He’s absolutely made strides and performed better, for the most part, than his co-stars, Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner and John Tavares.

Part of me wonders whether he’s been dragged down a bit by Tavares. Their connection has been a problem for the Leafs in both the regular season and playoffs.


..................

Nylander would remain a trade asset even if the Leafs were to extend his contract, assuming, of course, that they can limit the no-trade protections. And that has to be factored in, too. Extending Nylander would more than likely cement the same core for at least another season, after which Marner will be due an extension. That is, unless they opted to deal Marner before then. Do they want to run it all back?

One curiosity: If they can’t come to an agreement before the season, will Nylander insist on halting negotiations? And if so, will the Leafs be tempted to choose Path No. 2?

2. Trade him

Part of the trouble with waiting that long is the no-trade clause that will kick into Nylander’s contract on July 1.

It’s only 10 teams, but 10 teams is still 10 teams.

Part of the challenge with any Nylander trade is that a) That team will have to be one that’s presumably motivated to sign Nylander (otherwise why pay good assets for him in a trade?) and b) Nylander will have to be motivated to sign with that team.

So if the Leafs decide they don’t want to pay Nylander, or don’t think they can come to an agreement, the best time to trade for Nylander is now.


Is trading Nylander a good idea? It would obviously depend on the return. And that’s in part what scared them off from dealing Nylander in the past: The Leafs just didn’t believe that trading Nylander would make them better.

What might they want back in some kind of sign-and-trade or, less likely, a swap that doesn’t include a new contract for Nylander right away?

Ideally, a No. 2 centre, as detailed here.

If not, the Leafs might look to acquire a different type of winger for Nylander, maybe one who brings more size and physical oomph to the table. Someone like Pavel Buchnevich maybe, the 6-foot-3 Blues winger who has two years left on his deal at $5.8 million on the cap.
Does St. Louis, who was reportedly interested in Nylander in the past, see a swap like that as an upgrade if they can lock up Nylander for the long haul? Or could the Leafs maybe take a swing on a young guy who hasn’t quite popped yet, such as former No. 1 overall pick (and pending RFA) Alex Lafrieniere, plus other goodies?

The Rangers are always hunting stars and are about to lose Patrick Kane and Vladimir Tarasenko to unrestricted free agency. The Panthers also tend to go big-game hunting, and you’d think a team like the Hurricanes would greatly value a player like Nylander.

Treliving could also look at Nylander as the means to improving the defence.


Could they somehow do both, address forward and defence, as Treliving did when he swapped Tkachuk (younger and better than Nylander) for Jonathan Huberdeau and MacKenzie Weegar, plus other stuff, last summer? He also did the same sort of thing when he dealt Dougie Hamilton way back when.

Elias Lindholm and Noah Hanifin both have one year left on their deals in Calgary. If the Flames can’t extend Lindholm for whatever reason, is there some sort of swap there that makes sense if Nylander signs an extension? Would the Leafs want to pay Hanifin and Lindholm, who would improve things at centre (perfectly) and on D (less perfectly)? Would the Flames want more in that case? Would they look to include Timothy Liljegren and, if they did, would the Leafs insist on more in return? Are the Flames even willing to move Lindholm?

Trading Nylander for a collection of blah assets is obviously one worst-case scenario. The other is trading Nylander for a blah player, a la Taylor Hall–Adam Larsson.

You don’t often see contending teams trade players like Nylander, and for good reason: It’s hard to do it right — to make your team better or different even, just not worse.

3. Do nothing

All of this is what leads teams — again, good teams! — to simply hold onto useful players on expiring deals.

We’ve seen the Leafs do this repeatedly. James van Riemsdyk. Tyler Bozak. Jake Gardiner. Frederik Andersen. Zach Hyman. Ilya Mikheyev. Jack Campbell.


None of those players were quite on Nylander’s level (though Hyman has continued his forever upward ascent in Edmonton). Having a star like Nylander simply walk away in free agency next summer would sting more than any of those dudes did in summers past.

That’s the clear Gaudreau-like downside here.

The upside: The Leafs would get one more season of Nylander at a discounted rate of $6.9 million on the cap. It’s not impossible, either, that Nylander would re-sign next summer. Avalanche captain Gabriel Landeskog went to the eve of free agency before he finally re-upped in Colorado. Steven Stamkos memorably did the same in Tampa following a famed meeting with the Leafs.

In addition to Nylander, the crop of potential free agents in 2024 could include Stamkos, Sebastian Aho, Anze Kopitar, Chandler Stephenson, Mark Scheifele, Teuvo Teravainen, Connor Hellebuyck, Lindholm and Devon Toews. (There’s also that Matthews guy, who will presumably be locked up by then.)


All of which is to say that Nylander would rank among the most coveted players available. That could mean an even bigger payday than the one he might be looking at now.

Does letting things play out with Nylander mean the Leafs are prepared to let him walk? Not necessarily. The Flames tried until the very end with Gaudreau. And the Leafs could conceivably do the same with Nylander.

It’s possible they struggle to sign him now for whatever reason, fail to come up with a suitable trade, and simply decide to hold onto him for one last year instead. It doesn’t feel like the optimal asset management, but neither does the alternative of making a subpar trade just because you’re fearful of losing him for nothing (though again, it’s not really nothing because you’re getting him for one more season). Were Nylander to simply walk away next summer, the Leafs would be left with Matthews, Marner (presumably) and a soon-to-be 34-year-old Tavares, entering the last year of his contract.

Which makes doing nothing the least attractive option.

A trade — the right trade — makes sense. So does signing Nylander as his trajectory is still pointing upward. He’s also long-term star power for the Leafs as one long-time star, Tavares, ages.

The Leafs and their new GM have an interesting decision to make.
 

andora

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Apr 23, 2002
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We cant always disagree ;)


get player who will go in corner, rush the net, send the puck to the net, screen goalie when matthews taking a shot will have a higher impact than someone making play for matthews without any screen by exemple...whatever how good matthews shot is, against good goaltender in control, you still need screen to help you. Thats exactly
whats knies bring... i dont thing matthews really need a passer but get a screen will certainly help to increasu his number of playoff goal

I would like to see less big playmaking for matthews so he doesnt play to wait for it yeah i agree.. wingers that are good in tight and good puck support that can make short passes and rotate

what Matthews needs is a threat on the other side so that he cant be constantly double teamed, and someone who can execute a give and go properly ...first he had Hyman where Matthews passes off at the blue line entry (he always does this and it drives me nuts) then Hyman would never pass the puck back, and basically the shift was over ...Bunting was a teeny bit better, but, he used to pass it back, or cross ice, never back to Matthews who in every case was going down the middle.
this is hockey 101 and we cant even get a basic give and go, and keep doing it over and over and over.
Watch other teams with snipers like Pasta... he's always waiting for his one timer, and his mates are always looking to pass to him, with Matthews, its almost like he's used as a distraction.

Yep.. all these are types of short passes i meant. Give and gos, wall passes, cycle and rotations, crease plays etc...
 

ToneDog

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what Matthews needs is a threat on the other side so that he cant be constantly double teamed, and someone who can execute a give and go properly ...first he had Hyman where Matthews passes off at the blue line entry (he always does this and it drives me nuts) then Hyman would never pass the puck back, and basically the shift was over ...Bunting was a teeny bit better, but, he used to pass it back, or cross ice, never back to Matthews who in every case was going down the middle.
this is hockey 101 and we cant even get a basic give and go, and keep doing it over and over and over.
Watch other teams with snipers like Pasta... he's always waiting for his one timer, and his mates are always looking to pass to him, with Matthews, its almost like he's used as a distraction.
Zac seems to have figured it out playing with 97.

1687446306604.png
 
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Mess

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Leafs are trying really hard to sign pending unrestricted free agents Luke Schenn and Noel Acciari. As of now they don’t appear to have the wiggle room to get to $2 million (U.S.) or beyond like other teams canPrior to Dubas’s departure there was a strong sense he was planning on having goalie Matt Murray return to Toronto for his final year. Could that prior interest set up a trade between Dubas’s Penguins and Treliving’s Leafs?
Common man :wg:

This story writes itself " Prior to Dubas’s departure there was a strong sense he was planning on having goalie Matt Murray return to Toronto for his final year. Could that prior interest set up a trade between Dubas’s Penguins and Treliving’s Leafs? "

No better way for Treliving to rid himself of this headache is to make a call to Pittsburgh.

To Pittsburgh: Matt Murray & TJ Brodie & Jake Muzzin & Mark Giordano
To: Toronto: Alex Nylander & 3rd

KD can have his goalie and 1/2 of his Leafs defense and BT can start building his new defense and goaltending with all that cap space.
 
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Mess

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Zac seems to have figured it out playing with 97.

View attachment 720006

Check out how productive Zac is come playoff time in Edmonton.

1687448498039.png


14 goals and 27 playoff points the last 2 playoffs at $5.5 mil AAV.

If only Leafs $11 mil players could perform like that !!!!

Leafs should have let their former GM and their current coach walk and kept Hyman who is the type of playoff warrior you want when used properly.
 

Ianturnedbull

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Check out how productive Zac is come playoff time in Edmonton.

View attachment 720030

14 goals and 27 playoff points the last 2 playoffs at $5.5 mil AAV.

If only Leafs $11 mil players could perform like that !!!!

Leafs should have let their former GM and their current coach walk and kept Hyman who is the type of playoff warrior you want when used properly.
I miss Zach Hyman. He was a player fans could stand behind.

I really hope BT has a better philosophy than KD about how to build a team.

I really believe that "middle class" players are the key to success. Not this top heavy structure filling around them with min. wage reclamation projects.
 

ShaneFalco

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Jul 15, 2012
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I miss Zach Hyman. He was a player fans could stand behind.

I really hope BT has a better philosophy than KD about how to build a team.

I really believe that "middle class" players are the key to success. Not this top heavy structure filling around them with min. wage reclamation projects.
Exactly
There was no convincing Dubas though - not even 6 years of failure where they had to keep talking about "killer instinct", standing up for eachother, demons, etc
 

andora

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I miss Zach Hyman. He was a player fans could stand behind.

I really hope BT has a better philosophy than KD about how to build a team.

I really believe that "middle class" players are the key to success. Not this top heavy structure filling around them with min. wage reclamation projects.
Hyman brown moore.. three players that fans would have loved to watch progress
 

Antropovsky

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@francis246, you said Marner likes to slow the game down.

You can't slow it down in the offensive zone if an opposing player is pressuring you immediately and finishing checks. How do you decide at that point to "slow it down?" Watch playoff highlights... Marner can't skate with the puck because he gets caught by the opposition. And when he gets caught, he doesn't have the strength to protect the puck until he does get to top speed. Marner prefers to slow it down because he has no choice, because he is slow. Nylander is one of the games best skaters and has the acceleration to move around with the puck, and he also has the strength and skillset to protect the puck with his body and one arm until he creates enough speed.
 
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andora

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You can't slow it down in the offensive zone if an opposing player is pressuring you immediately and finishing checks. Watch playoff highlights... Marner can't skate with the puck because he gets caught by the opposition. And when he gets caught, he doesn't have the strength to protect the puck until he does get to top speed. Marner prefers to slow it down because he has no choice, because he is slow. Nylander has the acceleration to move around with the puck, and he also has the strength and skillset to protect the puck with his body and one arm until he creates enough speed.
Yes.. i agree.. not sure why you quoted me was it the three line thing?
 
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francis246

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Hyman brown moore.. three players that fans would have loved to watch progress

People are so lying about Hyman. It’s all hindsight. When Hyman was here he was so polarizing, most people hated him because he had no finish. Yes he played hard and would always score our empty net goals, but he was also a frustrating player to watch.

A lot of revisionist history, but we should pull up the Hyman threads from the past and remind ourselves of how much hate that guy got LOL.
 
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andora

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People are so lying about Hyman. It’s all hindsight. When Hyman was here he was so polarizing, most people hated him because he had no finish. Yes he played hard and would always score our empty net goals, but he was also a frustrating player to watch.

A lot of revisionist history, but we should pull up the Hyman threads from the past and remind ourselves of how much hate that guy got LOL.
Im not worried about what a bunch of hot air from the past did

I liked him he worked he created space and he complimented lines
 

Antropovsky

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This reminds me of the type of situation where someone gets beat up/harrassed and after the incident he tells his friends "if I see that guy again, I swear, he's finished!". And, of course, when he sees the guy again, he does nothing.
Pretty sure we've been hearing "next year if this happens again, that's it....." for the past two offseasons, before this one.
 
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ACC1224

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where as Marner plays better with JT because Marner can actually set up plays because JT can cycle and create space in front of the net. I think Marner prefers slowing it down in the offensive zone, where as Willy and Matthews love scoring off the rush and transition offense.
Yep, super elite at dictating the pace of play, big strength of his.
 
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BertCorbeau

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Jan 6, 2012
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Check out how productive Zac is come playoff time in Edmonton.

View attachment 720030

14 goals and 27 playoff points the last 2 playoffs at $5.5 mil AAV.

If only Leafs $11 mil players could perform like that !!!!

Leafs should have let their former GM and their current coach walk and kept Hyman who is the type of playoff warrior you want when used properly.

Used properly? How’s his usage different than it was in Toronto?
 

francis246

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Nov 16, 2007
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@francis246, you said Marner likes to slow the game down.

You can't slow it down in the offensive zone if an opposing player is pressuring you immediately and finishing checks. How do you decide at that point to "slow it down?" Watch playoff highlights... Marner can't skate with the puck because he gets caught by the opposition. And when he gets caught, he doesn't have the strength to protect the puck until he does get to top speed. Marner prefers to slow it down because he has no choice, because he is slow. Nylander is one of the games best skaters and has the acceleration to move around with the puck, and he also has the strength and skillset to protect the puck with his body and one arm until he creates enough speed.

Thank you for repeating what I already said! And adding a few insults to Marner. I know it’s hard for you to resist doing that. Really gained a ton of insight!!
 
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