Post-Game Talk: 2023-2024 Leafs Roster/Changes/Turnovers & Replacement(s)

[Martin Skoula]

Am I the only one who thinks ROR will be a mistake?

Obviously depends on the contract but I’m hesitant to spend big money on a 32 year old who has lost a step. He’s still got a lot to give but his skating is a big issue and speed was a big issue for this team in the playoffs.

I’m not worried about him falling off as much as I just didn’t see the upside in the playoffs. “You gotta watch him in isolation, he does all the little things right!!” but somehow when I watch him in isolation him being well positioned doesn’t distract me from his Gardiner-tier blind unforced giveaways in his own zone.

He’s not an elite playmaker anymore, he’s too slow to be an all-situations elite shutdown guy, and he’s not even the most reliable guy to make the safe correct play anymore. He’s just a guy who can win faceoffs when healthy and is useful around the net if he has good linemates.

I wouldn’t mind him at a reasonable price but the delusions about him still being some sort of Selke level disciplined warrior-monk with physicality and elite playmaking need to stop immediately. He has an average top-6 skill set and brain with 4th line speed at this point.

 

[notbias]

He's doing less and less at even strength - half his goals and points came on the PP last year. Only half his goals and points came at even strength (barely within the top 50 centers), and that's despite him spending most of his ES ice time with the RW who was third in the league in goals and fifth in points.

Tavares is around Hertl, Thomas, Miller, Horvat, Lindholm, Karlsson, Bergeron, Kuznetsov, and Kadri for ESP. He is around 45th for ESP by a C, that doesn't sound like a 3C.

Also, MacKinnon > McDavid for ESP, clearly MacKinnon is better.

 

[notDatsyuk]

And leafs wasted Matthews playing with nylander...

The interesting thing for me is Knies...if he bring ad much than we saw last playoff... i would like to like to see something like

Knies-matthews-jarnkrok
Comtois-jt-marner
Robertson-Toews-nylander


Do you realise than robertson having 6 month difference in term of age with Niemela... just dont understand why he should not be considerate like a prospect anymore

You think Jarnkrok is a better player than either Marner or Nylander?

You want to waste Marner by playing him with Tavares, and waste Nylander even more by playing him on the third line?

I know you have a serious dislike for Willy, but just WOW!

As for Robertson and Niemela, I don't think the six months in age is as big a factor as experience - both theirs and their coaches of watching them.

 

[francis246]

You think Jarnkrok is a better player than either Marner or Nylander?

You want to waste Marner by playing him with Tavares, and waste Nylander even more by playing him on the third line?

I know you have a serious dislike for Willy, but just WOW!

As for Robertson and Niemela, I don't think the six months in age is as big a factor as experience - both theirs and their coaches of watching them.

Marner isn't wasted with Tavares, there was a stat out there. Tavares and Marner are very effective together 5 on 5. Matthews and Nylander are the next best 5 on 5 forward pairing. That's why it pissed me off when Keefe did not make that switch in the playoffs. We have the evidence, if I'm Keefe. I sit Matthews and Marner down and I say, if you want to win a cup, you two cannot be on the same line. More success with them apart.

 

[Mess]

Agreed.

Dubas actually thought the Leafs were a contender, and spent assets supplementing them for the playoffs.

Too many no-shows on the roster, and no appetite to move marner nor Matthews, and Tavares controls where he plays.

In a redraft they probably still take them, but maybe there'd be a GM who knew how flawed they are and not waste those assets.

Craig Button recent comments.

It would seem that, now that Kyle Dubas has officially left the Toronto Maple Leafs and taken a new job with the Pittsburgh Penguins, the gloves are coming off. While there were some voices that were critical of the work that Dubas did during his tenure in Toronto, they were largely in the minority. That is at least up until the point that Dubas was fired by Maple Leafs president Brendan Shanahan, with seemingly many more analysts suddenly willing to speak out about Dubas' work in Toronto.

The latest example of this is TSN's Craig Button, who last week absolutely unloaded on Dubas when it comes to his work as a general manager for the Leafs. Button was quick to argue that Toronto's now infamous 'core four' shouldn't be taken to task over the lack of success, but instead that it should be Dubas who shoulders the brunt of the blame when it comes to their inability to be more competitive in the playoffs.

"The problem isn't Matthews, the problem isn't Marner, the problem isn't Nylander or those guys, they're not the problem," said Button. "The problem is the previous manager didn't build a winning team."

Button argued that the Leafs needed more depth in the bottom six as well as a heavier defense on the blue line, and doubled down on his criticisms of Dubas.

"The manager failed," said Button. "He failed.... Kyle Dubas thought that he had a different formula. He failed spectacularly with a formula that had shown never any semblance of being able to have success."

 

[notDatsyuk]

Tavares is around Hertl, Thomas, Miller, Horvat, Lindholm, Karlsson, Bergeron, Kuznetsov, and Kadri for ESP. He is around 45th for ESP by a C, that doesn't sound like a 3C.

Also, MacKinnon > McDavid for ESP, clearly MacKinnon is better.

How many of Hertl, Thomas, Miller, Horvat, Lindholm, Karlsson, Bergeron, Kuznetsov, and Kadri play with one of the top five RW?

Also, watching him, he looks much more like a 3C than a 2C.

 

[ULF_55]

Craig Button recent comments.

"The manager failed," said Button. "He failed.... Kyle Dubas thought that he had a different formula. He failed spectacularly with a formula that had shown never any semblance of being able to have success."

Dubas put all his eggs in the Triple Doubles' Baskets.

Dubas was too high on them.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner isn't wasted with Tavares, there was a stat out there. Tavares and Marner are very effective together 5 on 5. Matthews and Nylander are the next best 5 on 5 forward pairing. That's why it pissed me off when Keefe did not make that switch in the playoffs. We have the evidence, if I'm Keefe. I sit Matthews and Marner down and I say, if you want to win a cup, you two cannot be on the same line. More success with them apart.

I agree that Matthews/Nylander and Tavares/Marner work better, but JT is declining so much that I'd rather see him at 3C and give Mitch a better centre.

 

[notbias]

I agree that Matthews/Nylander and Tavares/Marner work better, but JT is declining so much that I'd rather see him at 3C and give Mitch a better centre.

Hertl plays with a top LW.
Miller does not.
Thomas plays with a very good RW.
Lindholm does not.
Karlsson plays with the Conn Smythe winner.
Bergeron plays with a top LW and sometimes a top RW too.
Kuznetsov plays with a top RW.
Kadri does not.

Craig Button recent comments.

It would seem that, now that Kyle Dubas has officially left the Toronto Maple Leafs and taken a new job with the Pittsburgh Penguins, the gloves are coming off. While there were some voices that were critical of the work that Dubas did during his tenure in Toronto, they were largely in the minority. That is at least up until the point that Dubas was fired by Maple Leafs president Brendan Shanahan, with seemingly many more analysts suddenly willing to speak out about Dubas' work in Toronto.

The latest example of this is TSN's Craig Button, who last week absolutely unloaded on Dubas when it comes to his work as a general manager for the Leafs. Button was quick to argue that Toronto's now infamous 'core four' shouldn't be taken to task over the lack of success, but instead that it should be Dubas who shoulders the brunt of the blame when it comes to their inability to be more competitive in the playoffs.

"The problem isn't Matthews, the problem isn't Marner, the problem isn't Nylander or those guys, they're not the problem," said Button. "The problem is the previous manager didn't build a winning team."

Button argued that the Leafs needed more depth in the bottom six as well as a heavier defense on the blue line, and doubled down on his criticisms of Dubas.

"The manager failed," said Button. "He failed.... Kyle Dubas thought that he had a different formula. He failed spectacularly with a formula that had shown never any semblance of being able to have success."

Quoting one of the worst analysts to exist is not really a good way to get your point across.

 

[Martin Skoula]

How many of Hertl, Thomas, Miller, Horvat, Lindholm, Karlsson, Bergeron, Kuznetsov, and Kadri play with one of the top five RW?

Also, watching him, he looks much more like a 3C than a 2C.

Meier, Kyrou/Buchnevich, Kuzmenko, Barzal, Pastrnak/Marchand, Ovechkin, Huberdeau all got carried by these elite Cs I guess.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Craig Button recent comments.

It would seem that, now that Kyle Dubas has officially left the Toronto Maple Leafs and taken a new job with the Pittsburgh Penguins, the gloves are coming off. While there were some voices that were critical of the work that Dubas did during his tenure in Toronto, they were largely in the minority. That is at least up until the point that Dubas was fired by Maple Leafs president Brendan Shanahan, with seemingly many more analysts suddenly willing to speak out about Dubas' work in Toronto.

The latest example of this is TSN's Craig Button, who last week absolutely unloaded on Dubas when it comes to his work as a general manager for the Leafs. Button was quick to argue that Toronto's now infamous 'core four' shouldn't be taken to task over the lack of success, but instead that it should be Dubas who shoulders the brunt of the blame when it comes to their inability to be more competitive in the playoffs.

"The problem isn't Matthews, the problem isn't Marner, the problem isn't Nylander or those guys, they're not the problem," said Button. "The problem is the previous manager didn't build a winning team."

Button argued that the Leafs needed more depth in the bottom six as well as a heavier defense on the blue line, and doubled down on his criticisms of Dubas.

"The manager failed," said Button. "He failed.... Kyle Dubas thought that he had a different formula. He failed spectacularly with a formula that had shown never any semblance of being able to have success."

Are they just figuring it out, or are they just finally willing to speak out?

How worth listening to are people who we know will toe the party line, even when it is obviously wrong?

At least Don Cherry spoke his mind, even if I didn't agree with him too often.

 

[justashadowof]

Tavares is around Hertl, Thomas, Miller, Horvat, Lindholm, Karlsson, Bergeron, Kuznetsov, and Kadri for ESP. He is around 45th for ESP by a C, that doesn't sound like a 3C.

45th ESP for NHL centers. That's middle tier of the league 2nd line center by that metric. No team should be compensating a mid-tier 2nd line center $11M aav.

 

[francis246]

I agree that Matthews/Nylander and Tavares/Marner work better, but JT is declining so much that I'd rather see him at 3C and give Mitch a better centre.

JT really isn't declining that bad. He's overpaid but we always knew the last few years of his contract would be rough. and frankly, he's still provided value by being PPG. Theres not more you can ask of him.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Meier, Kyrou/Buchnevich, Kuzmenko, Barzal, Pastrnak/Marchand, Ovechkin, Huberdeau all got carried by these elite Cs I guess.

Thanks for proving my point (I'll give you Bergeron).

 

[ACC1224]

Craig Button recent comments.

It would seem that, now that Kyle Dubas has officially left the Toronto Maple Leafs and taken a new job with the Pittsburgh Penguins, the gloves are coming off. While there were some voices that were critical of the work that Dubas did during his tenure in Toronto, they were largely in the minority. That is at least up until the point that Dubas was fired by Maple Leafs president Brendan Shanahan, with seemingly many more analysts suddenly willing to speak out about Dubas' work in Toronto.

The latest example of this is TSN's Craig Button, who last week absolutely unloaded on Dubas when it comes to his work as a general manager for the Leafs. Button was quick to argue that Toronto's now infamous 'core four' shouldn't be taken to task over the lack of success, but instead that it should be Dubas who shoulders the brunt of the blame when it comes to their inability to be more competitive in the playoffs.

"The problem isn't Matthews, the problem isn't Marner, the problem isn't Nylander or those guys, they're not the problem," said Button. "The problem is the previous manager didn't build a winning team."

Button argued that the Leafs needed more depth in the bottom six as well as a heavier defense on the blue line, and doubled down on his criticisms of Dubas.

"The manager failed," said Button. "He failed.... Kyle Dubas thought that he had a different formula. He failed spectacularly with a formula that had shown never any semblance of being able to have success."

Obviously he's correct but he probably should have said this earlier. Cowardly to speak out on it now.

 

[the Mighty Oak]

Craig Button recent comments.

It would seem that, now that Kyle Dubas has officially left the Toronto Maple Leafs and taken a new job with the Pittsburgh Penguins, the gloves are coming off. While there were some voices that were critical of the work that Dubas did during his tenure in Toronto, they were largely in the minority. That is at least up until the point that Dubas was fired by Maple Leafs president Brendan Shanahan, with seemingly many more analysts suddenly willing to speak out about Dubas' work in Toronto.

The latest example of this is TSN's Craig Button, who last week absolutely unloaded on Dubas when it comes to his work as a general manager for the Leafs. Button was quick to argue that Toronto's now infamous 'core four' shouldn't be taken to task over the lack of success, but instead that it should be Dubas who shoulders the brunt of the blame when it comes to their inability to be more competitive in the playoffs.

"The problem isn't Matthews, the problem isn't Marner, the problem isn't Nylander or those guys, they're not the problem," said Button. "The problem is the previous manager didn't build a winning team."

Button argued that the Leafs needed more depth in the bottom six as well as a heavier defense on the blue line, and doubled down on his criticisms of Dubas.

"The manager failed," said Button. "He failed.... Kyle Dubas thought that he had a different formula. He failed spectacularly with a formula that had shown never any semblance of being able to have success."

It's about time these guys start calling out doobis, He was a complete failure here. And it's also on Shanny for hiring him in the first place.

 

[thusk]

You think Jarnkrok is a better player than either Marner or Nylander?

You want to waste Marner by playing him with Tavares, and waste Nylander even more by playing him on the third line?

I know you have a serious dislike for Willy, but just WOW!

As for Robertson and Niemela, I don't think the six months in age is as big a factor as experience - both theirs and their coaches of watching them.

1- its not the idea, i think nylander make matthews worst and i think the way knies playing, hes a better fit to play with Matthews and knies is already better defensivly than nylander... i send jarnkrok in that line because hes a guy whos working hard to get the puck back and pretty good defensivly so also can help the rookie

2- i say it since the playoff, for me Marner is a betrer player away of Matthews. When hes playing with Matthews, hes playing FOR Matthews and not as dominant. So yes i want to see Marner driving his own line and no im not wasting marner, i try to get out the best version of Marner. I put comtois here for the same reason of Jarnkrok...

3- nylander is to make something florida did with reinhart or chicago with sharp or pittsburgh with kessel on his 3rd line and make damage against weaker line. Its a guy i dont want to play against top offensive line, hes too risky... trying to keep his offensive impact and reducing his negative defensive impact... and when you trailing and need a goal, he will still move up in the line up, will still play in pp


4- for robertson what i said is you can considerate a 21 player who didn't played more than 15 game in a season in an other way than a prospect.

 

[the Mighty Oak]

Quoting one of the worst analysts to exist is not really a good way to get your point across.

I'm curious what success. did Dubas have with the Leafs? after he inherited a one hundred and five point team. that was virtually an automatic 100 point team.

 

[notbias]

45th ESP for NHL centers. That's middle tier of the league 2nd line center by that metric. No team should be compensating a mid-tier 2nd line center $11M aav.

He's overpaid, not a 3C. No one was arguing he isn't overpaid.

I'm curious what success. did Dubas have with the Leafs? after he inherited a one hundred and five point team. that was virtually an automatic 100 point team.

None. In his tenure only a handful of GMs had success.

 

[ACC1224]

I'm curious what success. did Dubas have with the Leafs? after he inherited a one hundred and five point team. that was virtually an automatic 100 point team.

Don't do it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

JT really isn't declining that bad. He's overpaid but we always knew the last few years of his contract would be rough. and frankly, he's still provided value by being PPG. Theres not more you can ask of him.

There you go with that silly 'PPG' argument again. Half his goals and points came on the PP and half playing with one of the best RW in the league. Not so wonderful.

 

[the Mighty Oak]

Don't do it.

How come? this is a can't lose this debate

 

[justashadowof]

Admittedly I don't listen regularly to the TSN/Sportsnet hockey talking heads. Surely some of them must have mentioned that Dubas was trying to do something unprecedented. We've certainly discussed it repeatedly here.

 

[notbias]

There you go with that silly 'PPG' argument again. Half his goals and points came on the PP and half playing with one of the best RW in the league. Not so wonderful.

I just want you to say that MacKinnon is better than McDavid since half McDavid's points came on the PP and he is playing with the best winger (Draisaitl) for most of his 5v5 time.

 

[Peace Frog]

Am I the only one who thinks ROR will be a mistake?

Obviously depends on the contract but I’m hesitant to spend big money on a 32 year old who has lost a step. He’s still got a lot to give but his skating is a big issue and speed was a big issue for this team in the playoffs.

I don’t think we’re going to have to worry about it anyway. In the exit interview (I believe), he threw a bit of shade on Keefe. With Keefe very much looking like he’s coming back, I doubt ROR will.