2023-2024 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[Bye Bye Blueston]

The last time Vrana was on the ice for a Blues goal was Nov. 19 in Anaheim. Since then, the Blues have been outscored 8-0 with him on the ice.

According to Natural Stat Trick, Vrana is the Blues’ worst forward defensively, as St. Louis allows (per 60 minutes at 5 on 5) 5.59 more shots, 5.62 more scoring chances, 3.66 more high-danger chances, 1.12 more expected goals and 1.49 more goals with him on the ice than with him off the ice. All of those figures are worst among St. Louis forwards with at least two games played.

those are both from defranks.

 

[Brian39]

Disagree. Players need to work. Need to care. Berube can’t make them do that. You wanna blame coaches for pp sucking. Agree 100%. We should have much better pp with even limited talent on this roster. But you can’t just keep giving opportunities to someone who won’t work. Poisons entire team. That is what is meant by organizationAl culture that we are trying to protect. It’s ok for team to lose but it’s not ok for players to not give honest effort. Vrana didn’t. He woukd have produced more if handled differently, but at what cost? Time for him to go. Whether Berube needs to go is question for another day.

Two thirds of the roster doesn't/didn't work when Berube started making an example out of Vrana.

I talked about it at the time, but Vrana's healthy scratch came immediately following a game where Vrana was the only player on the ice who even remotely tried to get back on a shorthanded break the other way. Saad's effort in particular was literal beer league effort. Vrana started his backcheck from below the opposing hash marks and blew by Faulk who started (flat footed) from outside the blueline. It was Vrana who checked the trailing Jet hoping for a rebound.



Less than 8 minutes later he was benched for the rest of the night and then scratched for the next 2 games. He had been on the ice for exactly 1 goal against through 5 games at that point in the season.

I call absolute bullshit that the breakdown in the relationship started with a lack of work. Even if it did, the fact that none of Hayes, Kap, Saad, or Schenn facing consequences for sleepwalking through the first couple weeks of the season made it crystal clear that a lot of guys are immune from the "have to work" requirement that was set for Vrana. I very much saw a player who checked out once he saw no one else being held accountable the way he was. A huge portion of this roster is not being held accountable to the point where the guy wearing the C just spoke about it publicly.

Again, Vrana bears a good chunk of blame for his response. He checked out rather than buckling down when the adversity hit. But it is absolutely not true that Berube set an evenly distributed "players have to work" expectation on this roster.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Two thirds of the roster doesn't/didn't work when Berube started making an example out of Vrana.

I talked about it at the time, but Vrana's healthy scratch came immediately following a game where Vrana was the only player on the ice who even remotely tried to get back on a shorthanded break the other way. Saad's effort in particular was literal beer league effort. Vrana started his backcheck from below the opposing hash marks and blew by Faulk who started (flat footed) from outside the blueline. It was Vrana who checked the trailing Jet hoping for a rebound.



Less than 8 minutes later he was benched for the rest of the night and then scratched for the next 2 games. He had been on the ice for exactly 1 goal against through 5 games at that point in the season.

I call absolute bullshit that the breakdown in the relationship started with a lack of work. Even if it did, the fact that none of Hayes, Kap, Saad, or Schenn facing consequences for sleepwalking through the first couple weeks of the season made it crystal clear that a lot of guys are immune from the "have to work" requirement that was set for Vrana. I very much saw a player who checked out once he saw no one else being held accountable the way he was. A huge portion of this roster is not being held accountable to the point where the guy wearing the C just spoke about it publicly.

Again, Vrana bears a good chunk of blame for his response. He checked out rather than buckling down when the adversity hit. But it is absolutely not true that Berube set an evenly distributed "players have to work" expectation on this roster.

You are great poster and I enjoy your posts and usually agree with you, so I hate to be argumentative towards you, but vrana has been terrible. Hasn’t been working. Full stop. Berube may be about out of answers and likely won’t still be here when we are good again, but vrana dogging it is on vrana. Sorry.

 

[Brian39]

You are great poster and I enjoy your posts and usually agree with you, so I hate to be argumentative towards you, but vrana has been terrible. Hasn’t been working. Full stop. Berube may be about out of answers and likely won’t still be here when we are good again, but vrana dogging it is on vrana. Sorry.

Fully agreed that he has been terrible. I haven't said otherwise. Fully agreed that he hasn't been working. At no point have I said that he is currently working. I repeatedly said that he checked out, didn't work on the things he needed to work on, and that his response to Berube's decisions is costing him at (at best) dollars on his next contract or (at worst) potentially an NHL career.

I have not at all been arguing that Vrana is blameless here or that he has been putting the work in all season. He absolutely isn't and hasn't.

What I am saying is that it is revisionist history to act like he wasn't working at the start of the year and that his effort forced Berube's hand. I'm saying that it is asinine that Vrana never got an extended look on a top PP unit despite that unit being astoundingly bad. Again, Vrana responded poorly to what Berube did and deserves his share of the blame. But he didn't check out in a vacuum and Berube absolutely hasn't held the rest of the roster remotely as accountable as he has held Vrana since before Vrana checked out.

Coaches have to toe a line between treating everyone equally and treating players differently in order to get the most out of players. Berube did neither with Vrana. This is the least any coach has ever gotten out of Vrana in his NHL career and the rest of the team is far from thriving or responding to any message sent at the expense of Vrana washing out.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Didn't our captain just say the entire team didn't work? Why is Vrana the only one held accountable? Why do you expect him to keep trying when he is the only one ever held accountable?

Maybe reason so many don’t want to work is bc they see vrana dog it and he keeps getting chances. Poisons the well. I’m not against holding others accountable, but vrana is worst offender. He needs to go.

 

[Brian39]

How the hell exactly is Vrana a PP specialist? Vrana has 110 career goals; exactly 15 of them are on the PP. 9 of those came in 46 games, the 26-game stint with Detroit and the 20-game stint here that suddenly had people proclaiming he was a 40-goal scorer. Both of those had something in common: late-season stints, zero pressure, more likely to play teams. Aside from that and perhaps the '19-20 season when he had 11 assists (and a goal) for the Caps, he's had virtually no meaningful PP production and certainly not the kind of production that screams "he's a PP specialist!"

Didn't get a meaningful opportunity to help? He's got 31.9 minutes on the power play in 19 games for an average 1:40 per game, and has 13 shots on goal that's netted 0 goals and 0 points. That's a little more usage than Brandon Saad (who's got better PP production across his career and had a pretty decent '21-22 on the PP), and Saad has just under 43 minutes and the same 0-0-0 stat line with the man advantage. It's slightly less usage than Kevin Hayes (who was 6-10-16 last year on the PP in Philadelphia, on a PP that was dead last in the league and a PPP total that was better than Brayden Schenn last season), and Hayes is also 0-0-0 this season on the PP. [Also 0-0-0 this season on the power play: Justin Faulk, who's averaging 1:54 of it per game.] And I don't see anyone calling Saad or Hayes a PP specialist because of what they've done recently.

How much more usage does he need? Is the coaching staff supposed to employ some custom power play strategy around Vrana's uber-awesome PP skills that apparently didn't manifest in meaningful production at any other time? Do we just give him a spot regardless of what he's doing the rest of the time and expect that's enough motivation for him to play great and it rubs off? And if so, what message does that send to everyone else - especially the kids who are the future of the franchise and going to lead us back to greatness - trying to bust their ass to earn a spot and more playing time and more responsibility?

Vrana has played almost no time on the top unit. 6:16 with Thomas, 5:48 with Buch, 5:15 with Kyrou, and 3:36 with Schenn. His top 4 most frequent PP line mates are Faulk, Saad, Hayes, and Kap. As a whole, this essentially has made up our 2nd PP unit. No one on that unit is known for their playmaking/passing ability and that is overwhelmingly a 'cycle the puck up to the point for shots' personnel rather than a 'lateral pass play' personnel.

A meaningful opportunity would be spending more than 6 total minutes with the top unit personnel.

There is no crazy, custom PP strategy. The PP strategy I've been wanting to see all year is "we should have a one-time threat from the middle or right side of the PP." Every successful PP in the league relies on one-timers from the walls. We have elected not to and my argument is that we shouldn't have done that. Vrana has the best one timer one on the roster. His shot has never been a question mark. It is everything else about his game.

 

[MissouriMook]

I think this back-and-forth Vrana discussion has driven us back into the unenviable territory of drawing conclusions based on what we see, and ignoring the fact that there is so much more that goes on with the team that we don't see. The list of players mailing a game or two in this season is long and distinguished, but Vrana certainly has had more than his fair share. Still, there are enough guys that have been boat anchors from game-to-game that there is almost certainly something behind the scenes that the average fan knows nothing about causing a coach to healthy scratch the player and a GM to hold a player back from practice. We may never know, but hopefully the saga ends soon. I'm fine with the current trajectory of this flawed team hurtling toward another Top 10 pick, but I have no desire to see him or anyone become a locker room distraction.

 

[Reality Czech]

Fully agreed that he has been terrible. I haven't said otherwise. Fully agreed that he hasn't been working. At no point have I said that he is currently working. I repeatedly said that he checked out, didn't work on the things he needed to work on, and that his response to Berube's decisions is costing him at (at best) dollars on his next contract or (at worst) potentially an NHL career.

I have not at all been arguing that Vrana is blameless here or that he has been putting the work in all season. He absolutely isn't and hasn't.

What I am saying is that it is revisionist history to act like he wasn't working at the start of the year and that his effort forced Berube's hand. I'm saying that it is asinine that Vrana never got an extended look on a top PP unit despite that unit being astoundingly bad. Again, Vrana responded poorly to what Berube did and deserves his share of the blame. But he didn't check out in a vacuum and Berube absolutely hasn't held the rest of the roster remotely as accountable as he has held Vrana since before Vrana checked out.

Coaches have to toe a line between treating everyone equally and treating players differently in order to get the most out of players. Berube did neither with Vrana. This is the least any coach has ever gotten out of Vrana in his NHL career and the rest of the team is far from thriving or responding to any message sent at the expense of Vrana washing out.

I don't disagree with you per se, but keep in mind that fans aren't privy to what happens in between games. Your take is fair and I agree with much of it, but you're basing your opinions purely off what you see on TV. We don't know how he looks in practice, how he's responding to what the coaches ask him to do, or if he is a distraction behind the scenes. I will say that Vrana probably did have a shorter leash than most guys, but that is 100% due to his history, both recent and going back to his Czech national team days.

It's not fair to blame Berube for not getting more out of Vrana. The fact of the matter is that players need to earn opportunities by earning the coach's trust and obviously Vrana didn't do that. NHL coaches aren't going to put a guy on the 1PP or top line based on their potential 5 years ago. I doubt Berube has anything against Vrana personally, but he's not just gonna reward him unless he deserves it in his eyes. It's just as fair to ask why Vrana didn't play with more urgency considering he had to know this might be his last chance to stick in the NHL.

If it were up to me, maybe I would have given Vrana more PP time just to see what happens. But, if he was ignoring my instructions or pouting around the rink when he's not playing, then I might think twice about doing him any favors. Not saying that is the case, but I don't think fans can truly make a judgment simply based on how a guy looks on TV.

That being said, Vrana has looked terrible in games lately. His bad turnover in the Wild game allowed them to score a big goal, and he's been on the ice for 8 of our last 13 goals against despite playing around 12 minutes a game. Not saying it's all his fault, but that's not a great way to get yourself out of a coach's doghouse. There aren't many guys who can get by in the NHL based on their offensive play alone. Unless a guy is getting points almost every game then he'd better bring something else to the table. I bet most coaches would treat Vrana the same way Berube is.

 

[Majorityof1]

Maybe reason so many don’t want to work is bc they see vrana dog it and he keeps getting chances. Poisons the well. I’m not against holding others accountable, but vrana is worst offender. He needs to go.

As Brian has pointed out, he wasn't the worst offenders when he started getting singled out with his toi cut and getting scratched. This last stretch, absolutely, he was bad. Worst offenders? Eh, a bad offender among many. He definitely takes blame dor giving up. But the poor coaching pre-dates the poor play.

 

[Majorityof1]

I think this back-and-forth Vrana discussion has driven us back into the unenviable territory of drawing conclusions based on what we see, and ignoring the fact that there is so much more that goes on with the team that we don't see. The list of players mailing a game or two in this season is long and distinguished, but Vrana certainly has had more than his fair share. Still, there are enough guys that have been boat anchors from game-to-game that there is almost certainly something behind the scenes that the average fan knows nothing about causing a coach to healthy scratch the player and a GM to hold a player back from practice. We may never know, but hopefully the saga ends soon. I'm fine with the current trajectory of this flawed team hurtling toward another Top 10 pick, but I have no desire to see him or anyone become a locker room distraction.

This is absolutely right. If there are outside factors, that absolutely changes my argument. But it's a discussion forum. We are going to talk about it. I'd much rather deal with the facts as we can see them, then speculate on potential off-ice issues

 

[Brian39]

It's not fair to blame Berube for not getting more out of Vrana. The fact of the matter is that players need to earn opportunities by earning the coach's trust and obviously Vrana didn't do that. NHL coaches aren't going to put a guy on the 1PP or top line based on their potential 5 years ago. I doubt Berube has anything against Vrana personally, but he's not just gonna reward him unless he deserves it in his eyes. It's just as fair to ask why Vrana didn't play with more urgency considering he had to know this might be his last chance to stick in the NHL.

We're not talking about 5 year old potential. Vrana was 5th on the team in PP goals last season despite playing just 20 games here. He was just 1 back from Thomas and 2 behind Schenn. He was demonstrably the team's best shooting threat on the PP last year. Entering camp, it was obvious that Vrana had the best one-timer of any left hand shot on the team. His preseason PP goal was a one-timer from the right circle on a pass from Krug. Exactly where common sense would dictate that he should be and exactly the play we have been desperately missing through 27 games this year.

I genuinely don't know how he could have done more on the PP in recent memory to demonstrate that he was the best person for that job on the PP in the regular season.

At the end of the day, my core philosophical issue is using the top PP unit as a reward. The top PP unit at the start of the season should be about making the 5 man unit that gives you the greatest chance to score PP goals. Full stop. You want to use the 2nd unit as a reward for middle/bottom 6 guys? Absolutely. You want to use the top unit as a reward for guys when the top unit is struggling? Go for it. You want to use the top unit as a reward in games that are blowouts? Go nuts.

But the top PP unit you build in camp should be about making the best 5 man group. When you don't use it that way and instead use it as a reward, you risk starting the year with an awful unit that costs you games. When you are still using it as a reward and not basing it on who can actually give you a chance to score goals, you wind up with a unit who is tied in goals with the PK units.

Again, Vrana responded poorly and doesn't deserve to be in the lineup right now. But it is asinine that he wasn't given a shot on the top unit at the start of the year and it got worse as that unit looked awful game in and game out. Players (especially project players) are exponentially more likely to check out on a coach when they are watching that coach seemingly go out of their way to avoid utilizing the player's strengths.

It is still up to the player to get past that. If they don't, then the career consequences are on them. Vrana failed to get past it and is now on the verge of washing out. But that doesn't mean that the coach didn't make mistakes along the way or that the coach couldn't have gotten more out of the player.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Vrana has played almost no time on the top unit. 6:16 with Thomas, 5:48 with Buch, 5:15 with Kyrou, and 3:36 with Schenn. His top 4 most frequent PP line mates are Faulk, Saad, Hayes, and Kap. As a whole, this essentially has made up our 2nd PP unit. No one on that unit is known for their playmaking/passing ability and that is overwhelmingly a 'cycle the puck up to the point for shots' personnel rather than a 'lateral pass play' personnel.

A meaningful opportunity would be spending more than 6 total minutes with the top unit personnel.

There is no crazy, custom PP strategy. The PP strategy I've been wanting to see all year is "we should have a one-time threat from the middle or right side of the PP." Every successful PP in the league relies on one-timers from the walls. We have elected not to and my argument is that we shouldn't have done that. Vrana has the best one timer one on the roster. His shot has never been a question mark. It is everything else about his game.

OK, so "give him the spot on the top PP line even if he hasn't earned it otherwise because he might be a PP specialist even though there's NOTHING in his past that indicates it" is your approach to this. Got it.

I mean, I'd expect this alleged PP specialist to do something with Faulk (who's put up numbers on the PP in the past) and Saad (also has put up numbers on the PP in the past) and Hayes (same), but apparently he's only a PP specialist if he's put with other guys who are good on the PP who can somehow make him look good on the PP. By this logic, we might as well give him a top-6 spot and make him the feature winger because then everyone else can go out of their way to make him look good like they're doing with a certain other winger right now, instead of (gasp!) him playing hard and showing he's got the offensive instincts and some defensive responsibility to be useful in a top-6 role without being a huge liability.

But, that's just me. Probably the goddamn coaches' fault for not enabling Vrana in whatever ways are needed to make him look better than he really is, no matter how shitty and disengaged he plays some nights.

 

[Brian39]

OK, so "give him the spot on the top PP line even if he hasn't earned it otherwise because he might be a PP specialist even though there's NOTHING in his past that indicates it" is your approach to this. Got it.

No. Believe it or not, those goals he scored in the past do count. They were in real NHL games. They aren't hypothetical dream goals. You choosing to discount them and pretend that they aren't in his past doesn't make it so. For 2 years in a row, he scored at a high rate when his role was getting open for one-timers.

He was a more effective PP shooter than anyone on the team besides Kyrou (and maybe Buch) last year. There is nothing hypothetical about the quality of Vrana's shot.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

No. Believe it or not, those goals he scored in the past do count. They were in real NHL games. They aren't hypothetical dream goals. You choosing to discount them and pretend that they aren't in his past doesn't make it so. For 2 years in a row, he scored at a high rate when his role was getting open for one-timers.

He was a more effective PP shooter than anyone on the team besides Kyrou (and maybe Buch) last year. There is nothing hypothetical about the quality of Vrana's shot.

They were "real games" in that "it was 20 meaningless games with the team way the hell out of a playoff spot, and someone had to go play that role because the guys who would be there had been shipped out and he happened to make the most of it."

Great, Vrana scored 4 PPG last season. Big f***ing whoop. Sammy Blais was 7-10-17 in the final 19 games; by your "logic" he should be playing up on at least the 2nd line because he outproduced Thomas and Saad and Buchnevich and was even with Kyrou (11-5-16), and there's not one other person person in this forum who would say gosh, wow, look at what Blais did last season in those 19 games - I bet he could be a 30-goal, 70-point scorer!

The only thing hypothetical about Vrana's shot is the notion that because he scored 4 PPG last year and 10 in 20 (and 13 in 26 before that), it's an indication of what he's always done on the PP (it's not; as demonstrated, he's never done that for the vast majority of his career) and he'd keep that up for a full season (he wouldn't, we've seen it before, and we're seeing it now). You're the one claiming he's a PP specialist for those 4 golden PP goals, but apparently he's only a PP specialist if he's paired with really good players. That ... is most decidedly not a PP specialist. It's a PP opportunist, and we don't need a PP where everyone defers to one guy on the hope if we keep feeding him, "the quality of his shot" will cure everything up to and maybe including cancer.

 

[Reality Czech]

We're not talking about 5 year old potential. Vrana was 5th on the team in PP goals last season despite playing just 20 games here. He was just 1 back from Thomas and 2 behind Schenn. He was demonstrably the team's best shooting threat on the PP last year. Entering camp, it was obvious that Vrana had the best one-timer of any left hand shot on the team. His preseason PP goal was a one-timer from the right circle on a pass from Krug. Exactly where common sense would dictate that he should be and exactly the play we have been desperately missing through 27 games this year.

I genuinely don't know how he could have done more on the PP in recent memory to demonstrate that he was the best person for that job on the PP in the regular season.

At the end of the day, my core philosophical issue is using the top PP unit as a reward. The top PP unit at the start of the season should be about making the 5 man unit that gives you the greatest chance to score PP goals. Full stop. You want to use the 2nd unit as a reward for middle/bottom 6 guys? Absolutely. You want to use the top unit as a reward for guys when the top unit is struggling? Go for it. You want to use the top unit as a reward in games that are blowouts? Go nuts.

But the top PP unit you build in camp should be about making the best 5 man group. When you don't use it that way and instead use it as a reward, you risk starting the year with an awful unit that costs you games. When you are still using it as a reward and not basing it on who can actually give you a chance to score goals, you wind up with a unit who is tied in goals with the PK units.

Again, Vrana responded poorly and doesn't deserve to be in the lineup right now. But it is asinine that he wasn't given a shot on the top unit at the start of the year and it got worse as that unit looked awful game in and game out. Players (especially project players) are exponentially more likely to check out on a coach when they are watching that coach seemingly go out of their way to avoid utilizing the player's strengths.

It is still up to the player to get past that. If they don't, then the career consequences are on them. Vrana failed to get past it and is now on the verge of washing out. But that doesn't mean that the coach didn't make mistakes along the way or that the coach couldn't have gotten more out of the player.

Maybe they could have put him on PP1 to start the year, but as you said it's a reward. Rewards are earned, but clearly he didn't do enough to earn that reward. He looked good last year, but as we've seen there is very little carry over from one season to another. I am not convinced that Vrana being on our PP1 gives us a better chance to win, although in fairness our PP couldn't be much worse.

Until the power play units were shuffled up recently, we pretty much relied on the "top 4" forwards plus Krug on the PP1 unit. I'm not sure who comes off that first unit for Vrana, but I'd guess you would say Schenn. However, Vrana has gotten chances on the PP2 unit. Just looking at our ice time stats on hockey reference, Hayes is 5th in PP time, following by Vrana at 1:40 and Saad at 1:35, who are 6th and 7th among Blues forwards in PPTOI. So it's not like he hasn't gotten any chances on the PP, they just haven't come lately.

I will say regarding our PP struggles, Berube has heavily relied on his top unit even when they weren't getting any results. Some teams go with more of a balance between the two PP units, but the Blues basically let the top unit play as much as they can. I'm disappointed Vrana hasn't worked out, but the way I see it the Blues were doing him a huge favor by giving him a chance to re-start his career. He's the one who hasn't made the most of it.

 

[Celtic Note]

Disagree. Players need to work. Need to care. Berube can’t make them do that. You wanna blame coaches for pp sucking. Agree 100%. We should have much better pp with even limited talent on this roster. But you can’t just keep giving opportunities to someone who won’t work. Poisons entire team. That is what is meant by organizational culture that we are trying to protect. It’s ok for team to lose but it’s not ok for players to not give honest effort. Vrana didn’t. He would have produced more if handled differently, but at what cost? Time for him to go. Whether Berube needs to go is question for another day.

Maybe they won’t work because they are not inspired? Is this quiet quitting that we are seeing unfold?

Berube and Ott seem more like motivational coaches than tacticians. If they are both lacking in the X’s and O’s that help us play a a better structure for our team and they are not motivating them to play better then maybe they aren’t the right tandem to lead the next wave.

 

[Celtic Note]

Maybe they could have put him on PP1 to start the year, but as you said it's a reward. Rewards are earned, but clearly he didn't do enough to earn that reward. He looked good last year, but as we've seen there is very little carry over from one season to another. I am not convinced that Vrana being on our PP1 gives us a better chance to win, although in fairness our PP couldn't be much worse.

Until the power play units were shuffled up recently, we pretty much relied on the "top 4" forwards plus Krug on the PP1 unit. I'm not sure who comes off that first unit for Vrana, but I'd guess you would say Schenn. However, Vrana has gotten chances on the PP2 unit. Just looking at our ice time stats on hockey reference, Hayes is 5th in PP time, following by Vrana at 1:40 and Saad at 1:35, who are 6th and 7th among Blues forwards in PPTOI. So it's not like he hasn't gotten any chances on the PP, they just haven't come lately.

I will say regarding our PP struggles, Berube has heavily relied on his top unit even when they weren't getting any results. Some teams go with more of a balance between the two PP units, but the Blues basically let the top unit play as much as they can. I'm disappointed Vrana hasn't worked out, but the way I see it the Blues were doing him a huge favor by giving him a chance to re-start his career. He's the one who hasn't made the most of it.

Why is the PP a reward? Shouldn’t we put the right players in the right positions to succeed? And what about the others who didn’t earn that reward by not converting our PP’s to points? Personally I would rather reward players with more 5v5 play then use special teams to do it. Some players are just better at special teams. Might as well leverage their capabilities, especially when it’s not working anyway.

 

[Reality Czech]

Why is the PP a reward? Shouldn’t we put the right players in the right positions to succeed? And what about the others who didn’t earn that reward by not converting our PP’s to points? Personally I would rather reward players with more 5v5 play then use special teams to do it. Some players are just better at special teams. Might as well leverage their capabilities, especially when it’s not working anyway.

I was quoting Brian's post, which is where the reward talk started. Regardless of whether it's power play or even strength, all playing time can be seen as a "reward" in a way. Until they have fully earned the coach's trust over time, then all players have to earn their spot. Guys like Thomas and Kyrou were no different. But the point is that Vrana has done very little to earn any kind of reward, whether it's on the power play or 5-on-5. I fail to see how giving Vrana more playing time is going to make this team better, considering the fact that we seem to get scored on whenever he steps on the ice since he came back to the lineup.

 

[Mike Liut]

We were a lottery team last year and only added Hayes. Did people think we were suddenly going to turn into a playoff team?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Maybe they won’t work because they are not inspired? Is this quiet quitting that we are seeing unfold?

Berube and Ott seem more like motivational coaches than tacticians. If they are both lacking in the X’s and O’s that help us play a a better structure for our team and they are not motivating them to play better then maybe they aren’t the right tandem to lead the next wave.

let's set vrana aside for a second, because you touch on an important issue that goes well beyond him. berube is coach who sets tone for team and movtivates/inspires/holds them accountable. there is a shelf life on that type of coach and he may be nearing (or past) his expiration date. but i think, especially on team that is likely to do more losing before we become good again, a coach who will hold guys accountable is imperative.

ott i know gets lots of crap for who he was as a player, but as coach he seems like guy who is really good at helping players (especially forwards) with specific skills (like faceoffs) and help them individually. that is valuable role, but it feels like he should be maybe 2nd assistant and he has become 1st by default. i 100% agree that we need strong tactical coach to help us, either as assistant (like robinsons was as consultant on our Cup team or monty was) or as next head coach. because we don't seem to have anyone on staff who can fill that role.

net net, our coaching staff is still not good enough. and we will likely need to make changes before we are contenders again. but vrana not wanting to put effort in, that is on him and not coaching staff.

 

[CaliforniaBlues310]

We were a lottery team last year and only added Hayes. Did people think we were suddenly going to turn into a playoff team?

Because people still think after losing O’Reilly, Tarasenko, Barbashev, and Perron from our top 9 that we still have too much talent to be legitimately bad.

We’re mid as hell, and I truly hope we have a new coaching staff next year when the kids start coming in. I haven’t thought of Berube as a great X’s and O’s guy for several years now, and he’s truly been exposed since Monty left. I want a complete fresh start(minus Army) with the upcoming new core of players.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

And we're back putting Hayes on the wing and Buchy down the middle. it makes no sense. for all of his Warts, Hayes is still a natural C who has been very good on FOs.

 

[Mike Liut]

And we're back putting Hayes on the wing and Buchy down the middle. it makes no sense. for all of his Warts, Hayes is still a natural C who has been very good on FOs.

is Hayes signed for this year and next, or this year and 2 more? Sorry, too tired to search. But I probably spent as much energy typing this as searching lol

 

[Linkens Mastery]

is Hayes signed for this year and next, or this year and 2 more? Sorry, too tired to search. But I probably spent as much energy typing this as searching lol

This year +2

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

And we're back putting Hayes on the wing and Buchy down the middle. it makes no sense. for all of his Warts, Hayes is still a natural C who has been very good on FOs.

we can still use him for faceoffs. i don't know that he skates well enough to be able to really handle what we want out of our centers. buchy really does so much of what center needs to do (other than win faceoffs) that i get it, but... reality is we have 1 top 6 center and 2 top 6 wingers at this point. some kids look encouraging (and neighbours is on quite the heater), but right now we lack talent. which is why we gave a shot to talented guy who has been a dog everywhere he has been in hopes that he would finally try. and trying guys at different positions is basically desperate hope to find talent beyond what we see. so they are throwing darts at wall to see what sticks. but at the end of the day, we still need more talent on ice.