- Feb 12, 2008
- 19,979
- 9,514
2023-2024 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread
- Thread starter simon IC
- Start date
- Status
Ted Hoffman
Done
- Dec 15, 2002
- 29,289
- 8,728
If this team is now bad and it's all because of coaching and all the coaches need to go, then why are we keeping the guy who created all of it in the first place?
Oh, but Ted, he put together a team that won a Cup! BFD, so did the head coach (and his primary assistant coach). Why aren't we giving that same leniency to the guy who started a season as an assistant coach, got thrown into the head coach's spot as his boss promised a comprehensive search for the next head coach, had to do a lot of work to fix the dressing room, and did all the work behind the bench that won the Cup?
There's a time where you can look at a team and say, yeah, it's time to fire the coach. This isn't it, IMO. The night Keenan lost 8-0 at home to Vancouver, you knew he had to go ASAP. Q should have been shitcanned after we looked like shit in a loss to an undermanned Detroit team in late December, 2003 [the writing was on the wall after we shit away a 3-0 home lead to Detroit early in the month and had to hang on for dear life to salvage a 4-4 tie] and the team promptly shit away a 2-point deficit despite having 6 games in hand. [@kimzey59 would argue he should have been shitcanned after the 2003 playoff implosion.] Kitchen was clearly in over his head in 2005-06 even though the team utterly sucked. Yeo arguably could have been shitcanned down the stretch in 2018, he really should have been shitcanned that offseason when it was obvious to all of us he sucked. Right now doesn't feel like any of that.
It just seems really weird to me that on one hand, people are willing to toss coaches out on the premise that they're ill-equipped to coach this team (which logically presumes this team is pretty damn skilled and would be better - significantly better? - with a "better coach" who's know how to play guys on this roster, and that this isn't just a mediocre team that falls in that 6-11 range in the West) while simultaneously refusing to hold accountable the guy who reshaped the roster over the last 2ish years through his own intentional decisions because he won a Cup! and COVID screwed up the cap! and whatever other gracious excuses people want to create that they won't also extend to the guys behind the bench.
Oh, but Ted, he put together a team that won a Cup! BFD, so did the head coach (and his primary assistant coach). Why aren't we giving that same leniency to the guy who started a season as an assistant coach, got thrown into the head coach's spot as his boss promised a comprehensive search for the next head coach, had to do a lot of work to fix the dressing room, and did all the work behind the bench that won the Cup?
There's a time where you can look at a team and say, yeah, it's time to fire the coach. This isn't it, IMO. The night Keenan lost 8-0 at home to Vancouver, you knew he had to go ASAP. Q should have been shitcanned after we looked like shit in a loss to an undermanned Detroit team in late December, 2003 [the writing was on the wall after we shit away a 3-0 home lead to Detroit early in the month and had to hang on for dear life to salvage a 4-4 tie] and the team promptly shit away a 2-point deficit despite having 6 games in hand. [@kimzey59 would argue he should have been shitcanned after the 2003 playoff implosion.] Kitchen was clearly in over his head in 2005-06 even though the team utterly sucked. Yeo arguably could have been shitcanned down the stretch in 2018, he really should have been shitcanned that offseason when it was obvious to all of us he sucked. Right now doesn't feel like any of that.
It just seems really weird to me that on one hand, people are willing to toss coaches out on the premise that they're ill-equipped to coach this team (which logically presumes this team is pretty damn skilled and would be better - significantly better? - with a "better coach" who's know how to play guys on this roster, and that this isn't just a mediocre team that falls in that 6-11 range in the West) while simultaneously refusing to hold accountable the guy who reshaped the roster over the last 2ish years through his own intentional decisions because he won a Cup! and COVID screwed up the cap! and whatever other gracious excuses people want to create that they won't also extend to the guys behind the bench.
Kyrou was an embarrassment last year with his effort. He was lazy as f*** and played no defense. Not once was he held accountable.
Berube needs to be held accountable for not giving a guy that's actually willing to shoot the puck a shot on a legendarily bad PP.
I'm not so sure he's a specialist but f*** he's willing to shoot. That's better than the rest of our entire team apparently.
I think you are conflating 2 different things- whether Berube deserves to be fired and whether this coaching staff as constituted is good enough. I think both answers can be "no" and likely are. I like Chief and am in no hurry to fire him, but let's not pretend that most coaching changes are because guy was bad coach or new guy is better. sometimes teams feel like change will give them a spark and changing coaches is easiest way to try to save season. since this season is beyond saving, i don't see any point in firing Chief so long as team mostly will play for him most nights.
Last edited:
Celtic Note
Living the dream
- Dec 22, 2006
- 17,349
- 6,324
TheOrganist
Don't Call Him Alex
- Feb 21, 2006
- 4,304
- 1,900
@Ted Hoffman I think it’s fairly universal amongst the fanbase that Armstrong has done a terrible job as a manager dating back to the 2020 offseason but the dude is signed through 2026 and is probably the safest GM in the league as far as job security. We have to deal with that reality whether we like it or not. He will be overseeing the rebuild.
Reality Czech
Registered User
- Apr 17, 2017
- 5,902
- 9,574
Well, it's a certifiable fact that covid did screw the cap. Wouldn't really call that an excuse. And a guy probably does deserve credit for building a Cup-winning roster. It's not the kind of achievement you just brush off.
Then again, I'm not calling for either to be fired right this moment because I knew it would be a rough couple of years. The way I see it, there is literally no reason to fire Berube right now. The team isn't expected to go anywhere this year, and unless there is an outright mutiny among players then Berube stays at least til the end of the season. As we get closer to the end of his contract, then the discussion about who might take his place begins. I'd be surprised if Berube is still coach after his current contract expires, but a lot can change between now and then.
And Armstrong isn't going anywhere anytime soon either. Clearly the front office is behind him, and he is looking at the bigger, long-term picture while fans are freaking out on a game-to-game basis. It takes time to reshape a roster and there aren't many Cup winning teams who managed to keep their core together for long. You don't give a student a final grade halfway through the school year and we can't truly grade Army until you can see his whole body of work. He will be judged on how the team looks in a year or two, or what shape he leaves the franchise in if/when he moves on, not 30 games into a retool season when fans shouldn't have had any expectations of being a great team.
Completely disagree with this statement.
TheOrganist
Don't Call Him Alex
- Feb 21, 2006
- 4,304
- 1,900
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
Majorityof1
Registered User
Rutherford was right?!?!?
On my last word on this: I'm not a Vrana fan. I was one if the few who was not happy with the trade when it happened if you look at the necro bumped trade thread. I brought up a lot of the issues then you all have now. But we brought him in anyway, so why not make use of his talents.
I think this was a failure of coaching and coaching/gm being on the same page. Why bring him in if you are going to immediately start punishing him for being who he is? His TOI was being drastically cut before he ever really showed the bad parts of his game, while simultaneously not putting him in a position to use his strengths.
You all point to hus previous stops and negative comments saying this is who he is. We knew that. Why bother with him if we are just going to give up and say "you are who we knew you are".
In the grand scheme if things, it is not a big deal. I hope we tank this year, so let's waive anyone with NHL skills. I wish we could ice 18 Hugh McGings. But I think it shows some flaws with our coaching and with our GM's strategy. This is the definition of throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.
Snubbed4Vezina
Registered User
- Jul 9, 2022
- 2,448
- 4,315
We know the type of player he is, but you'd think seeing as this may be his final chance to actually prove himself at the NHL level that he'd be more motivated than ever to step up his game and perform. You saw glimpses of it at the end of last season.
But, it's pretty obvious that he didn't come into the season with that drive. There's a difference between a defensively flawed player, and a player who plays like he doesn't give a damn and the latter doesn't belong on the roster.
But, it's pretty obvious that he didn't come into the season with that drive. There's a difference between a defensively flawed player, and a player who plays like he doesn't give a damn and the latter doesn't belong on the roster.
Reality Czech
Registered User
- Apr 17, 2017
- 5,902
- 9,574
Well, when a big portion of the fanbase expects the Blues to compete for the Cup every single year and anything less is a failure, then yeah it's tough to meet expectations. Especially when you cut off our best years and judge him based on what he's done since 2020.
The guy is universally respected by his peers and I've heard ex players speak very highly of the way he does business and treats people, including guys like Perron and Berglund who could easily have hurt feelings about the way they left town.
Since Army took over as GM, we have the 7th best points percentage in the NHL and 2nd best in the West (only after Vegas). We've been one of the more fortunate fan bases over the past 10+ years and all some people can do is complain.
NHL Best Record Since 2010-11 Season | StatMuse
Since 2010-11, the Boston Bruins have the best record by a team, with a record of 614-293-113.
The answer to your question is obvious. He was impaired (to some degree) by addiction. This was another chance. If he was affected by substance abuse, it’s reasonable to consider whether that negatively impacted his on ice performance. Maybe the light turns on and he turns into something.
It was low risk for a small chance of a reward. Didn’t work out.
- Feb 12, 2008
- 19,979
- 9,514
We are not in a very good spot as a franchise. For every year we miss the playoffs, our veteran core players are another year older (Schenn, Saad, Faulk, Leddy, Parayko). In 3-5 years when we are ready to make a run, these guys will be either gone or a shell of their former self with the exception of Parayko (hopefully). I said this last year and I’m sticking to it, we will be drafting in the top 10 for the foreseeable future. i would look to move anybody not named Thomas, Kyrou, Parayko, Neighbors and Binny at the TDL.
BadgersandBlues
Registered User
- Jun 6, 2011
- 1,902
- 1,444
It's funny how time changes perspectives.
This board was originally up in arms when Vrana was scratched after game 5 or 6. Neighbors, Schenn, Krug, Hayes, and Sunny looked f***ing awful up to that point. Vrana was one of the few bright spots on our team from an offensive perspective. He was making plays when literally no one else was.
For some reason, Berube decided Vrana was the guy to sit. I have no idea why Berube choose Vrana, maybe there was something behind the scenes, maybe he picked a name out of a hat, maybe he truly thought Vrana was the problem. But I remember pretty much everyone on this board going.....of all the people, you wanna scratch him?
It's become clear that whatever the reason was, Vrana basically thought it was bullshit and it ruined whatever relationship he had with Berube. You could read it in the Athletic article JR brought out shortly after.....which probably only exacerbated the fraying of the relationship between those two.
Should Vrana have handled it differently? Absolutely. Should he have continued to work on his effort to improve? Definitely. Instead he decided to quit. There's no arguing that. It's obvious that he needs to go at this point. But I do think Berube shares a good amount of blame. Because early in the year, prior to the benching, Vrana was actually one of our lone bright spots.
As for the PP - I think it needs to succeed. Using it as a motivational tool isn't the worst idea, but success has to be #1. Since Montgomery left our team our PP has been total dogshit. Over the last two years only the Flyers, Canadians, and Hawks have had a worse PP then the Blues. That's f***ing gross and is 100% at the feet of a coach who uses the PP as a motivational reward instead of a tool to help you win games.
I've enjoyed the Craig Berube era, and I think it should continue until the end of the year. After that though, I think we might need to shift gears. Our effort these last two seasons has been far too inconsistent, and his refusal to play his potential best players on the PP due to visionary differences has actively cost us games.
This board was originally up in arms when Vrana was scratched after game 5 or 6. Neighbors, Schenn, Krug, Hayes, and Sunny looked f***ing awful up to that point. Vrana was one of the few bright spots on our team from an offensive perspective. He was making plays when literally no one else was.
For some reason, Berube decided Vrana was the guy to sit. I have no idea why Berube choose Vrana, maybe there was something behind the scenes, maybe he picked a name out of a hat, maybe he truly thought Vrana was the problem. But I remember pretty much everyone on this board going.....of all the people, you wanna scratch him?
It's become clear that whatever the reason was, Vrana basically thought it was bullshit and it ruined whatever relationship he had with Berube. You could read it in the Athletic article JR brought out shortly after.....which probably only exacerbated the fraying of the relationship between those two.
Should Vrana have handled it differently? Absolutely. Should he have continued to work on his effort to improve? Definitely. Instead he decided to quit. There's no arguing that. It's obvious that he needs to go at this point. But I do think Berube shares a good amount of blame. Because early in the year, prior to the benching, Vrana was actually one of our lone bright spots.
As for the PP - I think it needs to succeed. Using it as a motivational tool isn't the worst idea, but success has to be #1. Since Montgomery left our team our PP has been total dogshit. Over the last two years only the Flyers, Canadians, and Hawks have had a worse PP then the Blues. That's f***ing gross and is 100% at the feet of a coach who uses the PP as a motivational reward instead of a tool to help you win games.
I've enjoyed the Craig Berube era, and I think it should continue until the end of the year. After that though, I think we might need to shift gears. Our effort these last two seasons has been far too inconsistent, and his refusal to play his potential best players on the PP due to visionary differences has actively cost us games.
If berube was first coach who had issues with vrana I get blaming him. But basically every coach he has ever had in his entire career felt the same way about him. Occam’s razor says vrana is just that guy.
Now our pp sucks and maybe berube is nearing end, but I don’t blame him for not tolerating guy not trying.
I would agree but we watched him wipe Kyrou's ass for him last year when Kyrou didn't give a shit about effort and gave less than Vrana this year. This is purely a personality issue and Berube wants to win a disagreement. He's doing this at the cost of the team's PP chances. IMO Berube has put his own personal beef with a player above the needs of the team. It's time for him to piss off.
It’s important to note the difference in these situations though. Last season, Berube’s boss had already given Kyrou an 8-year extension so it’s not like Berube can just say “yeah I’m not gonna play the guy that our GM just decided to hand the franchise to” like he could with Vrana. Furthermore, for as bad as Kyrou was defensively, he was still a 24-year old that produced 37 goals for us, so at least the offensive production was there. Vrana is almost 28, wasn’t even on pace to break 30 points this season, and has a history of this stuff. I’m not saying Berube is completely blameless in his usage of players, but clearly the situations are different.
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
At the same point last year Kyrou had 23 points (27 games). I agree that last years Kyrou had a crushed peanut for a brain defensively and effort-wise, but, he was still putting up points. Vrana this season has a crushed peanut for a brain defensively and effort-wise and has put up 6 points.
We were also going through massive injury issues losing players like Tarasenko, Buch, RoR, and Saad at rates that seemed like it was a new injury nightly. it was harder to justify sitting a healthy player last season when we were constantly playing with 3-5 injuries per night (or more) than it is this season playing with no injuries.
At what point did Vrana start getting benched this year? Game 5? How many points did Kyrou have last year at game 5?
Vrana started getting benched when we could barely score 1 goal a game. He was also the only one that showed a spark of offense at the time the benching started.
then think how awful his effort in practice must have been? how far from the way that he was expected to play that he got benched that early? berube isn't perfect, but he isn't torts or keenan or someone who hates nearly everyone. why is it so hard for some of y'all to admit that vrana has been a dog for basically his entire career and berube joins basically every coach vrana has had who couldn't stand his lack of effort?
Ted Hoffman
Done
- Dec 15, 2002
- 29,289
- 8,728
First game Vrana didn't play this year: Game 6 (October 26, vs. Calgary) - and we won that game 3-0. [And then got ass-stomped by Vancouver 5-0 the next night.]
His stat line at that point: 1-2-3, +3, 7 shots, 12:13 ATOI [and that's after playing 9:12 vs. Winnipeg on the 24th].
Kyrou's stat line last year, through 5 games: 1-0-1, 16 shots, 19:13 ATOI.
Does that tell the entire story? Probably not, no one here is in the locker room to really know what's going on at any point in time. But if we're merely going on raw stats as some indicator of who should and shouldn't play [which, everyone on this board who's paid attention for any length of time should understand is not some be-all, end-all thing], then yeah - Vrana had better stats this year than Kyrou did last year through 5 games.
His stat line at that point: 1-2-3, +3, 7 shots, 12:13 ATOI [and that's after playing 9:12 vs. Winnipeg on the 24th].
Kyrou's stat line last year, through 5 games: 1-0-1, 16 shots, 19:13 ATOI.
Does that tell the entire story? Probably not, no one here is in the locker room to really know what's going on at any point in time. But if we're merely going on raw stats as some indicator of who should and shouldn't play [which, everyone on this board who's paid attention for any length of time should understand is not some be-all, end-all thing], then yeah - Vrana had better stats this year than Kyrou did last year through 5 games.
- Status
Ad
Latest posts
-
Prospect Info: The 2024-2025 Prospect Thread: Part 1: Skate or Die!- Latest: LemonSauceD
-
GDT: Utah Hockey Club @ Montreal, 11/26/24 | 7 PM | TSN2- Latest: Beendair Donedat
-
