2023-2024 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[bleedblue1223]

Where offensive players go to die? Buchnevich did have his initial breakout with New York, but his best offensive seasons have been with us, and bigger samples of top production. Schenn is another that brought his offensive game up a level. O'Reilly had his best offensive seasons with us.

If Vrana was good enough offensively, we could live with his defensive issues, sort of in a similar way as Kyrou. If Vrana worked on his on-ice issues like Kyrou has, he'd get more ice time, but he couldn't care less to play defense.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Not using our best LH shot on Pp. Putting him on the ice with 4th line grinders. Singling out for scratches when playing well relative to the rest of the team. And people wonder why he gave up?

Blues knew what he was when they traded for him. Then they tried to change him and punished him for being the offensive minded player he always was. You don't buy a dog and then get mad it doesn't take to litter box training.

He always had compete and defensive effort issues but he put up points. The Blues are where good offensive players go to have their offense die, and not improve on D. Hayes is also on pace for a career low point production, and he still sucks at D too. Has he been scratched?

Sorry, but this is bad take. I understand what you are saying about round pegs and square holes, but Vrana is just a dog. That isn't hill you want to die on.

 

[Majorityof1]

Where offensive players go to die? Buchnevich did have his initial breakout with New York, but his best offensive seasons have been with us, and bigger samples of top production. Schenn is another that brought his offensive game up a level. O'Reilly had his best offensive seasons with us.

If Vrana was good enough offensively, we could live with his defensive issues, sort of in a similar way as Kyrou. If Vrana worked on his on-ice issues like Kyrou has, he'd get more ice time, but he couldn't care less to play defense.

Buchnevich was not buried in the bottom 6 either. We get offensive guys and put them with guys whose play style doesn't mesh with theirs, and encourage them to play a grinding game. We don't know how to set non-elite offensive players up to suceed.

The guys you mentioned. O'Reilly, Schenn, are fit for that cycling game. Kyrou is working on his issues defensively but his offense is also struggling. Coaching doesn't know how to set that type of player up for success. And sure, if you are great, you can suceed any way. But players shouldn't have to suceed IN SPITE of their usage and coaching.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

I think Vrana biggest issue is that he simply can’t drive the play by himself. And the lack of defensive effort is just icing on the cake for his demise. You could live with the defense if he was producing offense. But if he’s not he’s a net negative.

It was worth a shot to bring him in for cheap but I can’t say I’m surprised or upset to see him get waived.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I mean, if you want to die on the hill that we killed guys like Vrana, Hoffman, and Yakupov because they refused to work on their game and relied on a good, but not great offensive game, and in the case of Yakupov, a bad offensive game, then more power to you.

If you want to be an offensive only player in the NHL, you better either drive the offense yourself or be a ridiculous finisher of the puck. Guys like Vrana and Hoffman are neither.

 

[Mike Liut]

If we had better defensive minded defenders, we could afford to have Vrana and Kyrou focus more on offense, but our defenders suck shutting teams down with the exception of Parayko and to a lesser extent Faulk.

 

[Majorityof1]

Vrana has averaged 25 g, and 47 points season pace over his NHL career until this year. Now he is averaging 8g, 24 point pace. Was he not just a dog then? I'm not saying his issues this year isn't partially or even mostly his fault. But we knew what we had and never tried anything different with him in terms of usage. We never relied on his strengths.

Perunovich is dog, but we are sheltering him and giving him PP time. Neighbours was God awful at the start of the season and we promoted him into success. But our best shot, we never tried on the Pp in a position to shoot when our PP is God awful? How does that make any sense?

 

[bleedblue1223]

Do you think that level of production justifies getting premium offensive minutes and sheltering? Putting Vrana on a top line like Thomas', basically means that line can't be matched up against other top lines because defensively they'll be screwed.

Sure, it sucks that it doesn't really work having both Kyrou and Vrana, but Vrana didn't earn big minutes, and in a best case scenario, his production still wouldn't warrent his defensive issues.

 

[stl76]

Vrana has averaged 25 g, and 47 points season pace over his NHL career until this year. Now he is averaging 8g, 24 point pace. Was he not just a dog then? I'm not saying his issues this year isn't partially or even mostly his fault. But we knew what we had and never tried anything different with him in terms of usage. We never relied on his strengths.

Perunovich is dog, but we are sheltering him and giving him PP time. Neighbours was God awful at the start of the season and we promoted him into success. But our best shot, we never tried on the Pp in a position to shoot when our PP is God awful? How does that make any sense?

Comparing Vrana to Neighbours and Perunovich? The situations are nothing alike.

I wanted to see him get a look on the top PP as well, but get a grip man.

 

[Majorityof1]

Comparing Vrana to Neighbours and Perunovich? The situations are nothing alike.

I wanted to see him get a look on the top PP as well, but get a grip man.

You are right. Vrana has a track record of NHL production, and the others do not. I'll grant Neighbours being different in that he is young and we have an interest in developing him. But it's illustrative if how it is hard to suceed in our bottom 6. He didn't produce til moved up into top 6, and then exploded on the top line.

As for dying on hills or getting a grip, I'm just having a discussion out here. If someone says anything compelling, I'll change my mind. So far "he's a dog", " did you watch that one game where the whole team was God awful", "2 teams traded him in the past" ( same could be said about half our team as many are dumpster dives/reclamation projects). Thise aren't compelling.

Answer this, who are we bringing up instead? Hugh Mcging? Do any of you who are saying good riddance think we are better off with McGing in the lineup?

 

[Mike Liut]

I said in the game day thread that Vrana is playing his last game as Blue. He sucks.

 

[LetsGoBooze]

This is why i hated all the offseason talk on how we were gonna get a 1st for both him and Kap at the deadline this year. Some people were acting like it was a certainty. Pump the breaks, lots can change quickly.

 

[Brian39]

I put Vrana's awful year about 50% on him and 50% on the coaching staff.

I don't believe there is a single game this year where he was put (and kept) in a position for his skill set to thrive for the entire night. He consistently had the shortest leash of every forward on the team. There were more than a handful of times where he would be the only bright spot on a putrid PP opportunity only to be left on the bench for the next PP. The chances he did get on the PP were almost always with the 2nd unit and when he did get out there to start a PP it was almost always the entire 2nd unit starting the PP because the top unit was embarrassing on the previous PP. Berube very clearly held him "more" accountable than other players.

With all that said, Vrana appeared to check out on the coach rather than working on the stuff the coach wanted/needed him to work on. His play very often looked like he decided Berube was stupid and that he wasn't going to buy in. While I think it is an understandable mindset (because I agree that Berube handled him terribly), the end result is that he wasn't good enough in the role he got. He had more to give in the role he got and failed to give it.

So for all that, I do think we're right at 50/50 blame for getting to this spot. With that said, I'm much more upset about the coaching staff's portion of blame than Vrana's. The PP sits 31st in the league on the day we waived the team's best one-time shot, who only has the 10th most PP minutes on the team. We have squandered a guy whose skillset is exactly one of our team's largest weaknesses.

"Holding guys accountable" doesn't ring remotely true to me when we aren't holding our PP accountable for their catastrophic failure so far. We have 4 forwards with 10+ PP shots this year. Vrana is one of them with 13 shots through 31 minutes of PP time. Kyrou has 7 shots in 76 minutes. Saad has 6 shots through 42 minutes. Hayes has 5 shots through 52 minutes. Kapanen has 4 shots through 31 minutes. Vrana's 24.6 shots per 60 minutes on the PP is almost double of our 2nd best PP shooting rate (Buch takes 13.8 shots per 60). We have a PP that is unable or unwilling to shoot the puck and it is 2nd worst in the league because of it. But they all still keep getting PP ice time as a reward for doing other things well, to the clear detriment of on-ice success.

We still have the same number of shorthanded goals as we do PP goals. That is stunning at the 27 game mark. We are 33% of the way through the season and our PP isn't outscoring our PK. Yet we are still seeing the same PP setup with basically the same personnel that hasn't worked all season.

We're 27 games into the season and there has been no accountability for an embarrassing PP.

I don't blame a player for deciding the coach's priorities are stupid when the team is actively being hurt because of these priorities. Vrana needed to suck it up and do what the coach was asking in order to get the common sense deployment. He didn't and it very well might cost him an NHL career. At the very least it is costing him a good chunk of real dollars on his next contract for next season (which at this point may or may not be an NHL contract). His 50% of the blame here is well earned for checking out.

But I expect more out of the head coach than I do out of a reclamation project. I'm more annoyed that Berube couldn't/wouldn't use the carrot on Vrana than I am that Vrana didn't positively respond to the stick. Vrana's play fell well short of where it needed to be and Berube's handling of Vrana fell well short of where it needed to be. It is a massive failure that a team with a putrid PP is waiving a PP specialist who has yet to get a meaningful opportunity to help the PP.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I put Vrana's awful year about 50% on him and 50% on the coaching staff.

I don't believe there is a single game this year where he was put (and kept) in a position for his skill set to thrive for the entire night. He consistently had the shortest leash of every forward on the team. There were more than a handful of times where he would be the only bright spot on a putrid PP opportunity only to be left on the bench for the next PP. The chances he did get on the PP were almost always with the 2nd unit and when he did get out there to start a PP it was almost always the entire 2nd unit starting the PP because the top unit was embarrassing on the previous PP. Berube very clearly held him "more" accountable than other players.

With all that said, Vrana appeared to check out on the coach rather than working on the stuff the coach wanted/needed him to work on. His play very often looked like he decided Berube was stupid and that he wasn't going to buy in. While I think it is an understandable mindset (because I agree that Berube handled him terribly), the end result is that he wasn't good enough in the role he got. He had more to give in the role he got and failed to give it.

So for all that, I do think we're right at 50/50 blame for getting to this spot. With that said, I'm much more upset about the coaching staff's portion of blame than Vrana's. The PP sits 31st in the league on the day we waived the team's best one-time shot, who only has the 10th most PP minutes on the team. We have squandered a guy whose skillset is exactly one of our team's largest weaknesses.

"Holding guys accountable" doesn't ring remotely true to me when we aren't holding our PP accountable for their catastrophic failure so far. We have 4 forwards with 10+ PP shots this year. Vrana is one of them with 13 shots through 31 minutes of PP time. Kyrou has 7 shots in 76 minutes. Saad has 6 shots through 42 minutes. Hayes has 5 shots through 52 minutes. Kapanen has 4 shots through 31 minutes. Vrana's 24.6 shots per 60 minutes on the PP is almost double of our 2nd best PP shooting rate (Buch takes 13.8 shots per 60). We have a PP that is unable or unwilling to shoot the puck and it is 2nd worst in the league because of it. But they all still keep getting PP ice time as a reward for doing other things well, to the clear detriment of on-ice success.

We still have the same number of shorthanded goals as we do PP goals. That is stunning at the 27 game mark. We are 33% of the way through the season and our PP isn't outscoring our PK. Yet we are still seeing the same PP setup with basically the same personnel that hasn't worked all season.

We're 27 games into the season and there has been no accountability for an embarrassing PP.

I don't blame a player for deciding the coach's priorities are stupid when the team is actively being hurt because of these priorities. Vrana needed to suck it up and do what the coach was asking in order to get the common sense deployment. He didn't and it very well might cost him an NHL career. At the very least it is costing him a good chunk of real dollars on his next contract for next season (which at this point may or may not be an NHL contract). His 50% of the blame here is well earned for checking out.

But I expect more out of the head coach than I do out of a reclamation project. I'm more annoyed that Berube couldn't/wouldn't use the carrot on Vrana than I am that Vrana didn't positively respond to the stick. Vrana's play fell well short of where it needed to be and Berube's handling of Vrana fell well short of where it needed to be. It is a massive failure that a team with a putrid PP is waiving a PP specialist who has yet to get a meaningful opportunity to help the PP.

Disagree. Players need to work. Need to care. Berube can’t make them do that. You wanna blame coaches for pp sucking. Agree 100%. We should have much better pp with even limited talent on this roster. But you can’t just keep giving opportunities to someone who won’t work. Poisons entire team. That is what is meant by organizational culture that we are trying to protect. It’s ok for team to lose but it’s not ok for players to not give honest effort. Vrana didn’t. He would have produced more if handled differently, but at what cost? Time for him to go. Whether Berube needs to go is question for another day.

 

[bleedblue1223]

If I'm being charitable, the coaches probably get some amount of blame. It took them awhile to put Hoffman in Tarasenko's spot on the PP, even though Tarasenko struggled there quite a bit, and Hoffman started scoring when he was put there. The issue for me, we don't really know what happens off the ice, and Vrana hasn't really done anything to earn the benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, I think we and Vrana are both better off parting ways. It was a low risk flyer that didn't work out, time to move on.

 

[Majorityof1]

Disagree. Players need to work. Need to care. Berube can’t make them do that. You wanna blame coaches for pp sucking. Agree 100%. We should have much better pp with even limited talent on this roster. But you can’t just keep giving opportunities to someone who won’t work. Poisons entire team. That is what is meant by organizationAl culture that we are trying to protect. It’s ok for team to lose but it’s not ok for players to not give honest effort. Vrana didn’t. He woukd have produced more if handled differently, but at what cost? Time for him to go. Whether Berube needs to go is question for another day.

Didn't our captain just say the entire team didn't work? Why is Vrana the only one held accountable? Why do you expect him to keep trying when he is the only one ever held accountable?

 

[Reality Czech]

Not using our best LH shot on Pp. Putting him on the ice with 4th line grinders. Singling out for scratches when playing well relative to the rest of the team. And people wonder why he gave up?

Blues knew what he was when they traded for him. Then they tried to change him and punished him for being the offensive minded player he always was. You don't buy a dog and then get mad it doesn't take to litter box training.

He always had compete and defensive effort issues but he put up points. The Blues are where good offensive players go to have their offense die, and not improve on D. Hayes is also on pace for a career low point production, and he still sucks at D too. Has he been scratched?

Hayes doesn't suck at defense and he's actually got hockey sense, unlike Vrana. Plus, we have plenty of wingers and few centers, so dumping Hayes wouldn't make sense. Not every player can be two way stars, but ANY player can give 100% effort and try to make something happen. I'm not sure if it's effort with Vrana or he just doesn't think the game fast enough at the NHL level. He has been given numerous chances to impress and has done little to nothing with it. If Vrana was actually putting up points then maybe the coaches could tolerate less than stellar play away from the puck, but the dude has 3 points in his last 16 games.

A coach can't preach hard work and then reward a guy who isn't pulling his weight. It sucks for Vrana, but I'm not terribly surprised by this move. I wish him all the best in Europe.

 

[The Electrician]

lol

 

[Brian39]

Do you think that level of production justifies getting premium offensive minutes and sheltering? Putting Vrana on a top line like Thomas', basically means that line can't be matched up against other top lines because defensively they'll be screwed.

Sure, it sucks that it doesn't really work having both Kyrou and Vrana, but Vrana didn't earn big minutes, and in a best case scenario, his production still wouldn't warrent his defensive issues.

There is a gigantic middle ground between 'premium offensive minutes' on the top line and the usage Vrana has actually seen.

I wanted 3rd line and top PP deployment our of Vrana, with an emphasis on making sure that 3rd line wasn't one of the lines playing a grindy role. 10-13 minutes a night at even strength (based largely on how badly we need offense), no PK time, and the being the #1 trigger man on the 1st PP unit. I'd have liked him to be the extra attacker for our #1 6 on 5 unit when we pull the goalie. Instead, he has been our 10th most-used forward with an empty net.

 

[Reality Czech]

lol

Dangit, we got Rutherforded! Jakub, if you're reading this we didn't mean it! Hodně štěstí kamo!

For the record, I don't see any reason to get rid of Vrana right now unless his attitude is somehow a distraction behind the scenes. We have next to nothing to lose by keeping him around and seeing if he can pull himself out of this funk. But if they decide to cut the cord on him, it shouldn't be a surprise either.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I put Vrana's awful year about 50% on him andIt is a massive failure that a team with a putrid PP is waiving a PP specialist who has yet to get a meaningful opportunity to help the PP.

How the hell exactly is Vrana a PP specialist? Vrana has 110 career goals; exactly 15 of them are on the PP. 9 of those came in 46 games, the 26-game stint with Detroit and the 20-game stint here that suddenly had people proclaiming he was a 40-goal scorer. Both of those had something in common: late-season stints, zero pressure, more likely to play teams. Aside from that and perhaps the '19-20 season when he had 11 assists (and a goal) for the Caps, he's had virtually no meaningful PP production and certainly not the kind of production that screams "he's a PP specialist!"

Didn't get a meaningful opportunity to help? He's got 31.9 minutes on the power play in 19 games for an average 1:40 per game, and has 13 shots on goal that's netted 0 goals and 0 points. That's a little more usage than Brandon Saad (who's got better PP production across his career and had a pretty decent '21-22 on the PP), and Saad has just under 43 minutes and the same 0-0-0 stat line with the man advantage. It's slightly less usage than Kevin Hayes (who was 6-10-16 last year on the PP in Philadelphia, on a PP that was dead last in the league and a PPP total that was better than Brayden Schenn last season), and Hayes is also 0-0-0 this season on the PP. [Also 0-0-0 this season on the power play: Justin Faulk, who's averaging 1:54 of it per game.] And I don't see anyone calling Saad or Hayes a PP specialist because of what they've done recently.

How much more usage does he need? Is the coaching staff supposed to employ some custom power play strategy around Vrana's uber-awesome PP skills that apparently didn't manifest in meaningful production at any other time? Do we just give him a spot regardless of what he's doing the rest of the time and expect that's enough motivation for him to play great and it rubs off? And if so, what message does that send to everyone else - especially the kids who are the future of the franchise and going to lead us back to greatness - trying to bust their ass to earn a spot and more playing time and more responsibility?

 

[bleedblue1223]

There is a gigantic middle ground between 'premium offensive minutes' on the top line and the usage Vrana has actually seen.

I wanted 3rd line and top PP deployment our of Vrana, with an emphasis on making sure that 3rd line wasn't one of the lines playing a grindy role. 10-13 minutes a night at even strength (based largely on how badly we need offense), no PK time, and the being the #1 trigger man on the 1st PP unit. I'd have liked him to be the extra attacker for our #1 6 on 5 unit when we pull the goalie. Instead, he has been our 10th most-used forward with an empty net.

I think the idea was for him and Hayes to be a decent scoring 3rd line, but that didn't work out.

As for the PP, I don't think Vrana really would've changed much, but we also have the 2nd worst PP, so it would be silly for anyone to argue against changes. At a minimum, I wouldn't argue with someone saying the coaches could've tried it for some amount of games.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

How the hell exactly is Vrana a PP specialist? Vrana has 110 career goals; exactly 15 of them are on the PP. 9 of those came in 46 games, the 26-game stint with Detroit and the 20-game stint here that suddenly had people proclaiming he was a 40-goal scorer. Both of those had something in common: late-season stints, zero pressure, more likely to play teams. Aside from that and perhaps the '19-20 season when he had 11 assists (and a goal) for the Caps, he's had virtually no meaningful PP production and certainly not the kind of production that screams "he's a PP specialist!"

Didn't get a meaningful opportunity to help? He's got 31.9 minutes on the power play in 19 games for an average 1:40 per game, and has 13 shots on goal that's netted 0 goals and 0 points. That's a little more usage than Brandon Saad (who's got better PP production across his career and had a pretty decent '21-22 on the PP), and Saad has just under 43 minutes and the same 0-0-0 stat line with the man advantage. It's slightly less usage than Kevin Hayes (who was 6-10-16 last year on the PP in Philadelphia, on a PP that was dead last in the league and a PPP total that was better than Brayden Schenn last season), and Hayes is also 0-0-0 this season on the PP. [Also 0-0-0 this season on the power play: Justin Faulk, who's averaging 1:54 of it per game.] And I don't see anyone calling Saad or Hayes a PP specialist because of what they've done recently.

How much more usage does he need? Is the coaching staff supposed to employ some custom power play strategy around Vrana's uber-awesome PP skills that apparently didn't manifest in meaningful production at any other time? Do we just give him a spot regardless of what he's doing the rest of the time and expect that's enough motivation for him to play great and it rubs off? And if so, what message does that send to everyone else - especially the kids who are the future of the franchise and going to lead us back to greatness - trying to bust their ass to earn a spot and more playing time and more responsibility?

Great post. Well said. Thank you.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Vrana no longer on Waivers, maybe a team decided to call Army to see if there is a way to grab him. Hopefully a resolution is announced shortly.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Berube said he's not practicing and to ask Doug, Korac also expected him to be on waivers.

Either way, I don't see Vrana playing for the Blues again, and we'll see how it officially ends soon enough.