WJC: 2022 Team Russia roster talk

[Yakushev72]

It's not a penalty. It's just paying back what's been invested in you.

These players have been provided everything. For the really good kids, their parents likely havent paid anything in hockey expenses since the kid was probably around 10. This is a luxury most people in the hockey world don't have.
You shouldnt have your entire hockey education paid for then just leave at 19. That's not right.

That said, this law is good in theory. In practice?...yea I dunno.

Good points! If these kids have been subsidized in Russia in the course of developing talents and skills that they can now turn around and sell overseas, I can see that point. As long as it is not retroactive, I can definitely live with that.

I have been catching hell from posters for advocating giving Russia-based players preference, or even limiting the roster of national teams, to Russia-based players only, but I think it is the same principle. The kids who go to NA get to that point because they have been taken aside and given intense training and experience at Russia's expense. Obviously, their main motive is to gain the attention of NHL scouts and to sign an NHL contract down the road. So why is Russia obliged to support their future goal to use their skills to add to the bank accounts of billionaire NHL owners?

 

[Zine]

Good points! If these kids have been subsidized in Russia in the course of developing talents and skills that they can now turn around and sell overseas, I can see that point. As long as it is not retroactive, I can definitely live with that.

I have been catching hell from posters for advocating giving Russia-based players preference, or even limiting the roster of national teams, to Russia-based players only, but I think it is the same principle. The kids who go to NA get to that point because they have been taken aside and given intense training and experience at Russia's expense. Obviously, their main motive is to gain the attention of NHL scouts and to sign an NHL contract down the road. So why is Russia obliged to support their future goal to use their skills to add to the bank accounts of billionaire NHL owners?

Because the objective of the national team is to win. The better policy is to separate the national team interests from those of club teams, KHL, etc....well, unless you're Roma.
Using it as a means of punishment is counterproductive. It's no deterrent because:
Money/career > patriotism.
People, regardless of nationality, will always choose self interest first. Always have, always will.

Now we can debate whether integrating north americanized-CHL players into the national team is sound policy, but a blanket ban gets us nowhere.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think the SKA rotations has messed with Askarov. Young goalies need a stable environment to develop. Some can emerge from a chaotic environment, but I think we’ve seen in the last two seasons that Askarov isn’t very sharp from game to game.

 

[Kshahdoo]

It's not punishment. It's just paying back what's been invested in you.

These players have been provided everything. For the really good kids, their parents likely havent paid anything in hockey expenses since the kid was probably around 10. This is a luxury most people in the hockey world don't have.
You shouldnt have your entire hockey education paid for then just leave at 18. That's not right.

That said, this law is good in theory. In practice?...yea I dunno.

23 is too much though. It should be about 21. Or 3 professional seasons in the KHL.

 

[Rob]

Because the objective of the national team is to win.
.

Absolutely. Imagine if the Americans only limited their team to players in their development program/NCAA and banned CHL players? They probably wouldn’t have won 4 gold medals in the past decade.

 

[c9gunner]

Because the objective of the national team is to win

Absolutely. The best players should be invited to the national team no matter what clubs they play for. Making a policy of not inviting NA players to the national team is plain stupid. The best players should be invted no matter what. It's time to stop playing politics and nepotism, time to stop calling the national team the Red Machine and dressing them in the СССР jerseys becasue thе time of the Soviet hockey domination is gone. It's time to become humble, admit that other contries have better youth programs and learn from them.

 

[Fantomas]

Making a policy of not inviting NA players to the national team is plain stupid.

Which country is doing this again? Remind me please, because I can't find this information.

 

[Fantomas]

Absolutely. Imagine if the Americans only limited their team to players in their development program/NCAA and banned CHL players? They probably wouldn’t have won 4 gold medals in the past decade.

Indeed, the US is ironically the best example of this.

 

[c9gunner]

Which country is doing this again? Remind me please, because I can't find this information.

I doubt any country would implement such policy, but as you can see in the disucssion above there are some proponents of doing that.

 

[c9gunner]

Indeed, the US is ironically the best example of this.

Did they ban the CHL players from playing in the national team?

 

[Fantomas]

Did they ban the CHL players from playing in the national team?

The US is probably the closest example of a national team turning its back on CHL players, which they often did.

But, as you say, no national team has ever outright banned players from a league. What some people advocate here has no relationship with reality.

 

[c9gunner]

What some people advocate here has no relationship with reality.

Agreed. My point was mostly hypothetical.
Speaking of the US development program, it's a bit unique. The are capitalizing on the very strong NCAA system which steadily produces NHL ready players.

 

[FlyguyOX]

How was Chibrikov

 

[Yakushev72]

Because the objective of the national team is to win. The better policy is to separate the national team interests from those of club teams, KHL, etc....well, unless you're Roma.
Using it as a means of punishment is counterproductive. It's no deterrent because:
Money/career > patriotism.
People, regardless of nationality, will always choose self interest first. Always have, always will.

Now we can debate whether integrating north americanized-CHL players into the national team is sound policy, but a blanket ban gets us nowhere.

What you are advocating is exactly what has existed for the past 20 years, and as the record shows, it has been an utter failure. Regardless of how good the players are who go to North America - and the vast majority are not that good - it is too hard to integrate them into a coordinated team 2 days before the tournament begins. The bigger problem is the steady decline of the quality of Russian hockey - just look at the dog crap that has been paraded at the World Championships in recent years. The only sources of funding for youth hockey in Russia are the Federal Government and the Oligarchies. like Gazprom and Lukoil. Unlike Canada, the US, Sweden and Finland, local communities don't tax their citizens to build rinks, train coaches, create leagues. That is why countries that are much smaller like Canada, Sweden, and Finland are beating them handily. I don't know what the answer is, but they are going to have to do something to reverse this downward spiral.

 

[BMann]

You speak of him like he's a great option. Guskov is a colander.

Well at the moment it's a toss up. The coaching is awful. Some of the selections are bizarre.

Is there no formal qualification system in place for coaches as in the past ? Like Master of Sport etc,etc. Or can anyone with a name turn up and do it now ?

The system is improving but the lack of centres and defencemen that can clear the zone is terrible. I do blame the coaching to a degree. Once again gifting away leads for no reason but sheer ineptitude on the blue line. Junior coaching for these positions and training should be reviewed. It's not as if it's a historical thing. The system produced high quality puck movers and players who could throw a hit or two. This defensive corps needs to grow up fast. Having Chayka and Petrov would not have been a bad thing at all.

It's not ideal they went to North America but excluding players like this is cutting the nose to spite the face. Other nations have done this in other sports and paid the penalty. It was a shambolic effort again yesterday mirroring the same path as the shambles against Canada.

 

[BMann]

What you are advocating is exactly what has existed for the past 20 years, and as the record shows, it has been an utter failure. Regardless of how good the players are who go to North America - and the vast majority are not that good - it is too hard to integrate them into a coordinated team 2 days before the tournament begins. The bigger problem is the steady decline of the quality of Russian hockey - just look at the dog crap that has been paraded at the World Championships in recent years. The only sources of funding for youth hockey in Russia are the Federal Government and the Oligarchies. like Gazprom and Lukoil. Unlike Canada, the US, Sweden and Finland, local communities don't tax their citizens to build rinks, train coaches, create leagues. That is why countries that are much smaller like Canada, Sweden, and Finland are beating them handily. I don't know what the answer is, but they are going to have to do something to reverse this downward spiral.

Go back to the old system. Never failed but needs modifying of course. Provide opportunities to all kids. Identify those with promise and then provide high quality coaching. Keep refining. Player numbers were not that great in the Soviet era but talent identification, coaching, mental and physical toughness were second to none. It can be done but the RHF needs to work a lot harder in sorting out these issues.

 

[c9gunner]

Unlike Canada, the US, Sweden and Finland, local communities don't tax their citizens to build rinks, train coaches, create leagues.

I can't speak for the US, Sweden, and Finland, but in Western Canada the minor hockey is funded by the parents and the coaches are volunteers. The local outdoor rinks are also run by volunteers.

 

[snipes]

I can't speak for the US, Sweden, and Finland, but in Western Canada the minor hockey is funded by the parents and the coaches are volunteers. The local outdoor rinks are also run by volunteers.

Can confirm.

In Western Canada it’s all done by the people. Hockey is in our blood, we take care of and build our own outdoor rinks on a volunteer basis. Pay out of pocket for teams, equipment, and ice time. I donate old equipment as well for other kids and families who may not hockey equipment. Pretty normal and standard thing to do.

It’s because of this that hockey has also progressively become a more elitist sport for the wealthy as well as we’re the ones who fund it. However, in terms of community access to the thousands of outdoor rinks throughout this country it’s all taken care of by the people in the community.

Almost every neighbourhood has their own community rink (or two) totally paid for and cared for by the members of the neighbourhood.

 

[c9gunner]

Provide opportunities to all kids. .......Player numbers were not that great in the Soviet era

Growing up in the Soviet Far East we were playing with shitty equipment and had almost no infrastructure, so I wouldn't say that all kids had good opportunities for development, but the kids who made it to the specialized sport schools were in a totally different situation, so you are right, the player numbers weren't great but we did have the system that was focused on sucking the best talent from the regions and creating super teams in Moscow. You should also add the ability to draft any 18 y.o. athletes and make them train with each other 24/7 for two years - and you will get the "old" system.

 

[cleveland408]

Agreed. My point was mostly hypothetical.
Speaking of the US development program, it's a bit unique. The are capitalizing on the very strong NCAA system which steadily produces NHL ready players.

Funny choice of words, since our NTDP was based on the very successful and respected Soviet program. Since this is the Russian thread I don't want to talk about other national teams too much, but the U.S strongly prefers it's own programs players over CHL players with successful results, even though American and Canadian culture and people are very entwined. Russia is smart for prioritizing Russian players that continue to develop in it's system

 

[kp61c]

Yurov looks like crap. Overhyped like crazy.

 

[Cskavars]

probably unpopular opinion but i do think Russia should go back to Askarov, ya he didnt look perfect but i cant see this team winning with Guskov he doesnt give me much hope. I think you let Askarov try to win the job back vs Slovakia

 

[wings5]

Growing up in the Soviet Far East we were playing with shitty equipment and had almost no infrastructure, so I wouldn't say that all kids had good opportunities for development, but the kids who made it to the specialized sport schools were in a totally different situation, so you are right, the player numbers weren't great but we did have the system that was focused on sucking the best talent from the regions and creating super teams in Moscow. You should also add the ability to draft any 18 y.o. athletes and make them train with each other 24/7 for two years - and you will get the "old" system.

To get the u18 team back in the MHL would be best case . Add in an u-17 team too . U17s in MHL. U-18s playing half MHL half VHL schedule . Slovakia also started doing something similar

 

[Juppy61]

And please no players from Canadian junior leagues. They don't know how to play Russian style of hockey anymore.

What is Russian style of hockey?

 

[ps241]

Boomer Canadian dropping by very much enjoying the read. Hockey feeder systems, support, infrastructure, and then overarching national hockey plan is an interesting topic.

Russia Hockey was always pretty innovative back in the day. I have lived through all the era’s and as a Canadian I have loved the clash. The competition was most interesting before Russian players joined the NHL but it has remained a constant in my life. Two natural Hockey rivals that have provided so much high level entertainment.

The hockey Movie “Red Army” was absolutely fascinating for me to watch.