2022 Line Combinations

[Ianturnedbull]

The normal rules don't apply when you have Cale f***ing Makar on your defense.

Tampa thrived on having a huge, physical D.


Which specific playoff wins did they cost us?

I can actually point to plays made by Boosh which directly won us playoff games

I thought that Kerfoot cost TOR wins in last seasons' playoffs. Kadri/Galchenyuk level bonehead plays too. Simmons/Clifford did the same thing I thought.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Kerfoot* - Tavares - Nylander
Engvall* - Kampf - Jarnkrok*
ZAR - - - Douglas - - - NAK
Clifford, Simmonds
Can Rotate*

Rielly - - - Brodie
Muzzin - Liljigren
Giordano - Sandin
Benn, Mete, Holl

 

[zeke]

When he became general manager of the team, and subsequently, the 2018-19 roster was stripped of physicality, and the Leafs got bullied out the playoffs after arriving with a soft team. It was depressing.

Change from 17-18 playoffs ---> 18-19 playoffs

JVR -------> Tavares
Bozak -----> T.Moore
Plekanec --> Gauthier
(Moore/Komo --> Ennis)

Polak ----------> Muzzin

 

[zeke]

The normal rules don't apply when you have Cale f***ing Makar on your defense.

Agreed skill is much more important than toughness.

Which specific playoff wins did they cost us?

I can actually point to plays made by Boosh which directly won us playoff games

Bogo and Boosh both managed to be the worst +/- in the playoffs despite getting the least toi on the defense, in series the Leafs lost by the thinnest margins.

They likely cost us both series.

 

[The Iceman]

Agreed skill is much more important than toughness.


Bogo and Boosh both managed to be the worst +/- in the playoffs despite getting the least toi on the defense, in series the Leafs lost by the thinnest margins.

They likely cost us both series.

Those guys were probably both heavy in D zone starts.

 

[zeke]

Those guys were probably both heavy in D zone starts.

 

[Nineteen67]

Reading this board, listening to several podcasts and Toronto sports radio, there seems to be a lot of questions beginning with “if” and “who”.

To win a round a lot will have to fall into place.

 

[All Mod Cons]

There's nuance to this. Mentioning Tom Wilson is overshooting the point. His predecessors also achieved nothing here.

Tampa, the pure skill model - Cirelli, Hagel, Paul, Killorn, Colton, Perry, Maroon, Bellemare. Prior years, add Coleman, Goodrow, Gourde, Joseph.

But yes, a lot of these guys have extremely high acquisition costs (see Hagel), which is why you have to draft them. I wonder why Knies is our top prospect. Yet these players are laughed off as low ceiling meh picks, as Knies was by many immediately post pick. Shopping for grit in FA leaves you with overpaid, over the hill garbage like Ritchie.

The bolded is also just wrong. We haven't had any top 9 versions to base that off of.

Anyways, we have next to no players of this ilk this season so we'll see how this goes and if it's as meaningless as people say.

It'd be nice if he didn't spend his first 3 years drafting the exact same player over and over again with a different surname.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Agreed skill is much more important than toughness.


Bogo and Boosh both managed to be the worst +/- in the playoffs despite getting the least toi on the defense, in series the Leafs lost by the thinnest margins.

They likely cost us both series.

+/- from an advanced stats lover?

 

[zeke]

+/- from an advanced stats lover?

They also had the worst advanced stats. By a lot.

 

[All Mod Cons]

They also had the worst advanced stats. By a lot.

But +/- as an argument? What's going on there? Sacrilege.

 

[zeke]

But +/- as an argument? What's going on there? Sacrilege.

When the people you argue with will laugh at any advanced stats, then you hit them with what they like.

 

[All Mod Cons]

When the people you argue with will laugh at any advanced stats, then you hit them with what they like.

I see.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I don't see +/- as being so evil.

I swear the only people who hate +/- (truly/deeply) might be player agents who have to defend their client's defensive abilities.

 

[zeke]

I don't see +/- as being so evil.

I swear the only people who hate +/- (truly/deeply) might be player agents who have to defend their client's defensive abilities.

It's pretty terrible, as it usually rewards the worst players on the best teams because they face such easy comp while playing with good teammates, while punishing the best players on bad teams because they face such tough comp while playing with bad teammates.

But when you put up a bad +/- while getting the easiest usage on a good team (like bogo and boosh).....yeah that's pretty bad.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

It's pretty terrible, as it usually rewards the worst players on the best teams because they face such easy comp while playing with good teammates, while punishing the best players on bad teams because they face such tough comp while playing with bad teammates.

But when you put up a bad +/- while getting the easiest usage on a good team (like bogo and boosh).....yeah that's pretty bad.

You can pretty much use all those reasons and apply it to most stats. A really talented player might get less of everything on an expansion team like the Kraken. Conversely a really talented player's stats can get look great on a contending team like Colorado.

Thank goodness a GM / coach can see how impactful/talented/smart a player is by watching them and not the spreadsheets.

 

[zeke]

You can pretty much use all those reasons and apply it to most stats. A really talented player might get less of everything on an expansion team like the Kraken. Conversely a really talented player's stats can get look great on a contending team like Colorado.

Thank goodness a GM / coach can see how impactful/talented/smart a player is by watching them and not the spreadsheets.

There's not really any other stats like +/- that will literally make the worst players look like the best players and the best players like the worst.

If you're talking about analytics, the beauty of those is that they can be adjusted relative to usage and teammates, which solves the issue.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

There's not really any other stats like +/- that will literally make the worst players look like the best players and the best players like the worst.

If you're talking about analytics, the beauty of those is that they can be adjusted relative to usage and teammates, which solves the issue.

There is no possible way to make a bad player look like the best player.

 

[zeke]

There is no possible way to make a bad player look like the best player.

+/- often does

 

[andora]

To be fair our top shut down guys gave up same amount of goals.. rielly broke even while him and muzzin gave up worse high danger chance ratio.. 2 of our top 3 dmen didnt help either

 

[jaric1862]

The idea of Gaudette as the 4th line Center is nauseating. He brings nothing to the game.

He's a defensive liability, offensively he's not even that great, terrible on face-offs, and not overly physical.

I hope one of the Marlies guys beats him out

 

[Sypher04]

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Robertson - Tavares - Nylander
Engval - Kampf - Jarnkrok
ZAR - Kerfoot - NAK

Rielly - Liljegren
Muzzin - Brody
Giordano - Holl

Kerfoot would obviously be an overpaid 4th line C, but it would be a pesky line.

Robertson need an extended look in the top 6. He definitely doesn’t fit on either of the bottom 2 lines. Unfortunately seeing as how he is waiver exempt (basically the only player contending for a spot) he will more than likely yo-yo. Hopefully he blows everyone away from the get go.

You’re not wrong regarding that 4th line but I imagine that’s the kind of move that wouldn’t sit well with players. Contract year, 4th line, and better than probably 4 of the players playing top 9

 

[Dekes For Days]

When he became general manager of the team, and subsequently, the 2018-19 roster was stripped of physicality, and the Leafs got bullied out the playoffs after arriving with a soft team.

Except that didn't happen at all. There were only about 4 players different between the 2017-2018 and 2018-2019 rosters, and two of them were Tavares and Muzzin. There was no notable loss of physicality between the two years, and we've never lost a series because of physicality. You're misremembering and vastly overrating this aspect of play.

 

[IPS]

Agreed skill is much more important than toughness.


Bogo and Boosh both managed to be the worst +/- in the playoffs despite getting the least toi on the defense, in series the Leafs lost by the thinnest margins.

They likely cost us both series.

Which specific playoff games did Boosh cost us.

I remember you tried doing this with Bogosian too and I posted all the gifs of the goals that were actually the fault of Sandin, Dermott and Galchenyuk.

And why was Boosh in the lineup over both Holl and Liljegren at different stages of the series? Keefe needs you as an assistant coach.



Skill is indeed more important than toughness, no debate. But that does not mean you completely exclude toughness in favor of nothing but skill.

 

[zeke]

I remember you tried doing this with Bogosian too and I posted all the gifs of the goals that were actually the fault of Sandin, Dermott and Galchenyuk.

Yep I remember you being totally unable to understand the fact that Bogo leaving his linemates with no support was a bad thing.