2022 Line Combinations

[JT AM da real deal]

Anyone been down to Ford to watch da scrimmages? Just curious who is skating together? Keefer is there watching but of course it is not a Leaf event technically.

 

[LeafEgo]

How we get tougher is mostly internally. Matthew’s showed that in the playoffs. We need more of that. If our top guys can play harder, that is far more important than a 4th tough guy who plays 8 minutes a game. Maybe Knies can provide some of that. Tavares isn’t a wimp. Nylander isn’t small, and I’d wish his game could grow that way, and defensively.

I’m not sure how we can address our lack of toughness on the backend.

I wouldn't count out the impact of sub 10 minute 4th liners but I agree toughness in the top 6 20+ minute players is key - Avs made that abundantly clear.

I may be the only one, I don't see it posted much, but I thought Matty was a beast in the Jackets series and have never been concerned with him. No issue with the other three bigs individually but as a collective its difficult to bring up the physical tempo because there are not many spots left and they cost a lot - as do physical players that can keep up and contribute in the top 6. Knies on ELC would help.

The back end is an issue, and some want to give up on Muzzy - that would be scary. Perhaps certain events through the season will open up the possibility of us picking up a defender with a powerful presence at the TD like Manson.

 

[kb]

What is the concern level on the physicality of this group?

In Dubies first experiment circa 2018, where physicality was tossed aside, we had Muzzy, couple small energy forwards, a bit of spark in Kadri. Boston basically just beat us up. After that we started to steer back to sanity.

Now it looks like we're back again with just Muzzy (older), couple small energy forwards, and a modest spark in Bunting.

It feels like we've lost so many times in a row we're starting to forget some of the lessons we learned in the beginning.

Since when did Dubas toss aside physicality?

This is the most overused fallacy on here. In Dubas' first year, it was Babcock who stopped stopped playing Martin (and Komarov), so Martin asked to be traded and Komarov left as a UFA. Once Babcock was fired and Keefe was brought in, Dubas' first trade post Keefe hiring was to acquire Clifford and Campbell.

People hate when facts get in the way of a good (yet incorrect) narrative.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Since when did Dubas toss aside physicality?

This is the most overused fallacy on here. In Dubas' first year, it was Babcock who stopped stopped playing Martin (and Komarov), so Martin asked to be traded and Komarov left as a UFA. Once Babcock was fired and Keefe was brought in, Dubas' first trade was to acquire Clifford and Campbell.

People hate when facts get in the way of a good (yet incorrect) narrative.

Correct .. Keefer and his bro love da fights even da staged fights .. once it is in ur blood it never leaves ur blood

 

[Fogelhund]

Correct .. Keefer and his bro love da fights even da staged fights .. once it is in ur blood it never leaves ur blood

Mr Curtis Douglas will be a part of this team, maybe at times this year, maybe next year. When that kid makes the lineup, teams are going to think twice about messing with us.

 

[IPS]

Literally their toughest forward.



So they had one tough dman.

The normal rules don't apply when you have Cale f***ing Makar on your defense.

Tampa thrived on having a huge, physical D.

Yeah we had Bogosians and Booshes and Simmondses and they made us worse and probably cost us playoff wins.

And to look at Colorado and Tampa dominating and winning with skill skil skill and conclude that toughness was the key is just bizarre. We literally added the toughest forward on the avalanche cup winning roster.

Which specific playoff wins did they cost us?

I can actually point to plays made by Boosh which directly won us playoff games

 

[IPS]

Always get a kick out of these posts.



I don't think Simmer plays.

Holl and Lily aren't soft but they are not noteworthy either when it comes to a physical presence at the back. They aren't Hedman-Cernak-Serg-Bogo (Bolts), Weber-Petry-Edmundson-Chariot (Habs), Parayko-Bortuzzo-Edmundson-Petro (Blues), types of defenceman to borrow from teams with recent playoffs success.

I don't know the new three forwards much outside of what has been shared here - they are all certainly small though. How would you describe them?

Do you think the team is more prepared for a slug game than they were in 2018-19? We may just have different expectations.

The reason the Avs got beat by the VGK in the 2021 playoffs was because of the VGK insane forecheck which wore down the Avs badly over the series, particularly their small D which had trouble withstanding the crazy physicality imposed on them. They addressed this adding Manson and even Jack Johnson.
Vegas couldn't impose that same plan on the Habs because of the Habs massive D (which you referenced) which was literally the same D that outed us in the playoffs (which the usual suspects ignore and point to it all being Carey Price instead).

 

[Fogelhund]

The normal rules don't apply when you have Cale f***ing Makar on your defense.

Tampa thrived on having a huge, physical D.


Which specific playoff wins did they cost us?

I can actually point to plays made by Boosh which directly won us playoff games

Which games did Boosh win us? Single handily?

 

[peconcan]

Bunting Matthews Nylander
Robertson Tavares Marner
Engvall Kerfoot Jankrok
Kampf Douglas Aube-Kubel

 

[LeafEgo]

Since when did Dubas toss aside physicality?

This is the most overused fallacy on here. In Dubas' first year, it was Babcock who stopped stopped playing Martin (and Komarov), so Martin asked to be traded and Komarov left as a UFA. Once Babcock was fired and Keefe was brought in, Dubas' first trade post Keefe hiring was to acquire Clifford and Campbell.

People hate when facts get in the way of a good (yet incorrect) narrative.

When he became general manager of the team, and subsequently, the 2018-19 roster was stripped of physicality, and the Leafs got bullied out the playoffs after arriving with a soft team. It was depressing.

I don't know if you are disputing any of that or why we would dive into a Dubie vs Babber thing.

The question was, is the team tough enough today to avoid what happened that year - because to me the rosters are very similar from a physicality standpoint. We reversed course the following year but now we are back where we started. If we don't make changes, I reckon we will get beat up again.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The reason the Avs got beat by the VGK in the 2021 playoffs was because of the VGK insane forecheck which wore down the Avs badly over the series, particularly their small D which had trouble withstanding the crazy physicality imposed on them. They addressed this adding Manson and even Jack Johnson.
Vegas couldn't impose that same plan on the Habs because of the Habs massive D (which you referenced) which was literally the same D that outed us in the playoffs (which the usual suspects ignore and point to it all being Carey Price instead).

So when the Avs won, it's because Cale Makar is so good the rules don't apply. When they lose, it's because their small defensemen like Cale Makar got destroyed by a heavy forecheck. I don't really sense much consistency in your arguments

 

[notbias]

When he became general manager of the team, and subsequently, the 2018-19 roster was stripped of physicality, and the Leafs got bullied out the playoffs after arriving with a soft team. It was depressing.

I don't know if you are disputing any of that or why we would dive into a Dubie vs Babber thing.

The question was, is the team tough enough today to avoid what happened that year - because to me the rosters are very similar from a physicality standpoint. We reversed course the following year but now we are back where we started. If we don't make changes, I reckon we will get beat up again.

We were tougher last year, just the refs decided to call it like a regular season game, so we removed our toughness.

 

[Knies iT]

Since when did Dubas toss aside physicality?

This is the most overused fallacy on here. In Dubas' first year, it was Babcock who stopped stopped playing Martin (and Komarov), so Martin asked to be traded and Komarov left as a UFA. Once Babcock was fired and Keefe was brought in, Dubas' first trade post Keefe hiring was to acquire Clifford and Campbell.

People hate when facts get in the way of a good (yet incorrect) narrative.

It's the least understood fallacy on here. Constantly has to be re-explained because of this classic "Clifford/Simmonds" rebuttal. List the most physical top 9 players under Dubas' tenure.

Bunting (great), Kadri (dumped), Hyman (let walk), then a bunch of corpses.

He added Simmonds/Clifford who played 5 minute per night so I guess we can conclude that the physical approach is dead in the water. We all know 4th liners who play 5 mins/game dictate a team's identity.

Literally their toughest forward.



So they had one tough dman.

Aube Kubel is tougher than Landeskog? Was NAK in the top 6?

This reminds me of your Petan > Bennett take.

 

[Cams]

Correct .. Keefer and his bro love da fights even da staged fights .. once it is in ur blood it never leaves ur blood

It was long after their OHL days that the "golden age" of those types of games went by the way side. Keefe's brother was nuts! So much drama around them though....that whole group and the Frost stuff.......crazy times!

 

[IPS]

So when the Avs won, it's because Cale Makar is so good the rules don't apply. When they lose, it's because their small defensemen like Cale Makar got destroyed by a heavy forecheck. I don't really sense much consistency in your arguments

The formula is pretty obvious for beating the Avs.

Cale had his least productive series against St. Louis which was coincidentally the team that put the most pressure on him with their forecheck. Funny enough Josh Manson had more points than Makar that series (which doesn't mean much at all, just funny in regards to the argument).

 

[81Leafs50]

It is an impressive achievement and I love his work ethic I just don't see him doing that again, also I feel like he kills a lot of offense for our other star players... he butchers just about every 2 on 1 or high-end passing play.

you also didn't see him doing it the first time. So lets ease up on the opinions, and add some more facts to the convo. Kerfoot is a good top 6 player.

 

[namttebih]

Honest questions

Do you think that they were pushed around against Tampa?

Did Tampa or Colorado get pushed around at all? The Avalanche weren't exactly a bunch of tough guys.

Is this just indicative of an overall softer brand of hockey that's been implemented over the last decade?

 

[ULF_55]

Lightning were on fumes to end the playoffs.

IMO, they looked beat by game 3 regardless of the score they put up.

Avs had an easy round against Edmonton.


Bunting-Matthews-marner
Jarnkrok-Tavares-Nylander
Engvall-Kampf-Aube-Kubel
Douglas-Gaudette-Anderson

 

[Fogelhund]

Lightning were on fumes to end the playoffs.

IMO, they looked beat by game 3 regardless of the score they put up.

Avs had an easy round against Edmonton.


Bunting-Matthews-marner
Jarnkrok-Tavares-Nylander
Engvall-Kampf-Aube-Kubel
Douglas-Gaudette-Anderson

Douglas if he's in your lineup, is the C. Gaudette has barely played as a C, and is terrible at faceoffs. Douglas is actually very good at them.

Outside of that, the lineup is going to be hard to predict for the start of the season, and likely to change throughout the season. I'm like you on one thing.. no Kerf in my opening day.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

It was long after their OHL days that the "golden age" of those types of games went by the way side. Keefe's brother was nuts! So much drama around them though....that whole group and the Frost stuff.......crazy times!

Da kid was stupid too .. like in a Wolves alumni game maybe 20 years ago up he freakin slashes me on ankle to try to break it .. I look at this kid and he says you wan to go big boy .. this is a kid creating problems with a retired guy in his late 30s .. I was working for a living at that point and no interest in fighting Wolves goon .. but i think he went with mcrae later in that game

 

[Oscar Peterson]

you also didn't see him doing it the first time. So lets ease up on the opinions, and add some more facts to the convo. Kerfoot is a good top 6 player.

Lmao the entire point of being on a forum like this is to share opinions and have discussions. Maybe take your own advice when you have nothing of value or interest to contribute to the thread.

 

[kb]

It's the least understood fallacy on here. Constantly has to be re-explained because of this classic "Clifford/Simmonds" rebuttal. List the most physical top 9 players under Dubas' tenure.

Bunting (great), Kadri (dumped), Hyman (let walk), then a bunch of corpses.

He added Simmonds/Clifford who played 5 minute per night so I guess we can conclude that the physical approach is dead in the water. We all know 4th liners who play 5 mins/game dictate a team's identity.

Aube Kubel is tougher than Landeskog? Was NAK in the top 6?

This reminds me of your Petan > Bennett take.

He addressed it the same way his predecessors did.

In case you haven't noticed, 99% of the tough guys play the dump and chase - even the top 9 guys suck and cannot play the Leafs up tempo style. Kinda glad he's not replacing Nylander with Josh Anderson types.

How many Wilson types are in the NHL now? Just curious.

 

[Knies iT]

He addressed it the same way his predecessors did.

In case you haven't noticed, 99% of the tough the dump and chase top 9 guys suck and cannot play the Leafs up tempo style.

How many Wilson types are in the NHL now? Just curious.

There's nuance to this. Mentioning Tom Wilson is overshooting the point. His predecessors also achieved nothing here.

Tampa, the pure skill model - Cirelli, Hagel, Paul, Killorn, Colton, Perry, Maroon, Bellemare. Prior years, add Coleman, Goodrow, Gourde, Joseph.

But yes, a lot of these guys have extremely high acquisition costs (see Hagel), which is why you have to draft them. I wonder why Knies is our top prospect. Yet these players are laughed off as low ceiling meh picks, as Knies was by many immediately post pick. Shopping for grit in FA leaves you with overpaid, over the hill garbage like Ritchie.

The bolded is also just wrong. We haven't had any top 9 versions to base that off of.

Anyways, we have next to no players of this ilk this season so we'll see how this goes and if it's as meaningless as people say.

 

[jfc64]

I don’t want Engvel in the top 6, too many plays die on his stick.

Think En (g) - WALL 'em!

He addressed it the same way his predecessors did.

In case you haven't noticed, 99% of the tough guys play the dump and chase - even the top 9 guys suck and cannot play the Leafs up tempo style. Kinda glad he's not replacing Nylander with Josh Anderson types.

How many Wilson types are in the NHL now? Just curious.

Haha! WONDERFUL avatar!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

There's nuance to this. Mentioning Tom Wilson is overshooting the point. His predecessors also achieved nothing here.

Tampa, the pure skill model - Cirelli, Hagel, Paul, Killorn, Colton, Perry, Maroon, Bellemare. Prior years, add Coleman, Goodrow, Gourde, Joseph.

But yes, a lot of these guys have extremely high acquisition costs (see Hagel), which is why you have to draft them. I wonder why Knies is our top prospect. Yet these players are laughed off as low ceiling meh picks, as Knies was by many immediately post pick. Shopping for grit in FA leaves you with overpaid, over the hill garbage like Ritchie.

The bolded is also just wrong. We haven't had any top 9 versions to base that off of.

Anyways, we have next to no players of this ilk this season so we'll see how this goes and if it's as meaningless as people say.

Fairly sure nobody thought Knies as a low ceiling pick. If anything, there were thoughts that he wasn't going to be all that physical and was going to be more like a Matthews-lite... And that he was going to be a little bit boom-bust given he had a lot of finesse and overplayed the puck at times.

Turns out, he likes to use his size and he has calmed down the finesse a little bit.

Minten on the other hand... He is a lower ceiling pick. And even if you wanted guys with size/skill/grit, there were better options than him available.

Watching the Marlies play, however, and there are not too many guys who are afraid to get their hands dirty. If they bulk up, there is no reason why they can't emulate some of the smaller guys on that Tampa list (Hagel, Colton, Gourde, Cirelli).