Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[Alaskanice]

Obviously it would be nice to see guys like Labanc and Lindblom play harder and with more intensity, but I don't think it's fair to judge everyone by the same "hustle metric," so to speak.

When you have guys who are more skill-based, yes, you can criticize them then for not actually doing what they're good at (contributing goals and offense), but when you're dealing with a short training camp, a new system that they're still getting accustomed to (even the better skill guys, like Hertl and Meier), and some wonky lines, that's where all this line-shuffling and scratching and scapegoating starts to feel kind of messed up when it happens so soon.

Good post. If they win a game, the pitchforks would be less.

 

[weastern bias]

Fun fact: Both these teams dropped from 1 to 4 in the draft post-lottery...we're doomed.

Those #4 picks both worked out pretty well for those teams, and if you're last you can only fall to #3 now

The hockey gods will smile upon our honest failure, we didn't tank, we're bad on accident, this is our time

 

[sharski]

For those who tank themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be tanked

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Hertl, Couture and Karlsson all have negative value. Meier also has marginal value, essentially that of a deadline rental, thanks to his QO.

They do need to move on from all four of those players but more for the cap and roster building flexibility than the assets they will get in return.

Heryl and Couture have positive value, that's not even debatable.

Karlsdon does not, unless 50% of his cap gets eaten.

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

For those who tank themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be tanked

Which famous poet wrote that?

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

I agree with you on the first part--I think that's something that fans should all keep in mind. It was always going to be tough to start the season well considering the circumstances.

That being said, I kind of think Quinn himself is forgetting or overlooking the situation. It's going to take time for guys to get accustomed to his system, and as they struggle with that, performances--especially in terms of more talented players clicking and working together and scoring--will likely follow suit.

So what he's doing is taking guys like Lindblom and Labanc, guys who we know aren't hard-nosed, gritty types of players, but I believe can still be valuable when surrounded by the right guys, and basically punishing them because A) they're not performing offensively yet in a new system (sometimes with bad linemates) and B) they're not playing a gritty game.

Therefore, by showing this lack of patience--and some bad line construction, in my opinion--Quinn is overlooking the bigger picture and exacerbating the problems himself. Labanc and Lindblom, in my opinion, should be given at least ten games in the top six to see if they can start to gel with the guys once they start to develop chemistry within the system. Instead, what Quinn is doing is making it harder for the team to succeed and basically immediately punishing players when he--his system and his lines--have been part of the reason they've struggled.

It's a fair point to argue how long the leach should be before players are held accountable with ice time. Quinn's is short. But Labanc should be on a short leach. He has obvious offensive talent that this team needs, but he has a long history of lazy penalties, poor defensive coverage, and thinking and then playing like mini-Thornton stapled to the half boards. If Quinn can get Labanc to have total concentration on the ice and so lose his bad habits, that is a big win for the team.

 

[boredatwork]

Obviously, the defense is a mess, but I’m worried about Ferraro. I can’t get a read on what he is. Is he a complimentary top 4 d-man or a bottom pairing guy? I don’t think he’s shown the ability to carry a pairing and I’m not even sure if he’s a puck-mover. Someone convince me that this guy is not becoming the Mike Brown of defensemen!

Also, Simek has been really interesting. He reminds me of Scott Hannan in his second stint with the Sharks. Simek clearly plays the system and activates in the ozone, which is great. But, I’m also like, do I really want Simek activating in the ozone.

 

[Karl Prime]

I haven't noticed Labanc do anything positive offensively outside of that one chance he had on the PP set up by EK. And even then, he probably should have buried that.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Obviously it would be nice to see guys like Labanc and Lindblom play harder and with more intensity, but I don't think it's fair to judge everyone by the same "hustle metric," so to speak.

When you have guys who are more skill-based, yes, you can criticize them then for not actually doing what they're good at (contributing goals and offense), but when you're dealing with a short training camp, a new system that they're still getting accustomed to (even the better skill guys, like Hertl and Meier), and some wonky lines, that's where all this line-shuffling and scratching and scapegoating starts to feel kind of messed up when it happens so soon.

It's not that I'm judging them by the hustle metric. I'm not. It's that the reality for them given the way they're used, it's not about hustle. It's about production and only production precisely because they're not being asked to hustle. They're not asked to kill penalties or play defense or play physically. They're asked to produce. When they don't, they bring nothing else and are always going to be at peril for sitting in the press box or getting sent down.

 

[sharski]

Which famous poet wrote that?

P sure it was Abraham Lincoln

 

[timorous me]

It's not that I'm judging them by the hustle metric. I'm not. It's that the reality for them given the way they're used, it's not about hustle. It's about production and only production precisely because they're not being asked to hustle. They're not asked to kill penalties or play defense or play physically. They're asked to produce. When they don't, they bring nothing else and are always going to be at peril for sitting in the press box or getting sent down.

Absolutely. I just think that, you know, when by game two of the season Quinn has elevated Lorentz to the second line (and he's been there now for four games), he's not giving these skill guys a chance to actually be productive. When you have Hertl and Meier struggling to produce, maybe that's a sign that adjusting to this new system--with a short camp and travel to Europe and back--isn't a piece of cake. So to me, the coach should acknowledge that and give guys some time to get going.

 

[tahoesharksfan]

Also, Simek has been really interesting. He reminds me of Scott Hannan in his second stint with the Sharks. Simek clearly plays the system and activates in the ozone, which is great. But, I’m also like, do I really want Simek activating in the ozone.

I see Simek playing up to his earlier, pre-injury, potential and therefore being one of the bright spots of this season so far…

P sure it was Abraham Lincoln

I’m pretty sure it was Alfred Einstein!

 

[weastern bias]

Heryl and Couture have positive value, that's not even debatable.

Karlsdon does not, unless 50% of his cap gets eaten.

The Hertl and Couture contracts spoil what value they might otherwise have, no one wants to commit that much money to aging players for that long

Karlsson has negative value even at $5.75M, he's a broken hockey player, any positive contributions he makes on ice are negated by all of his shortcomings and he's signed to the biggest cap hit at his position for this year plus 4 more, it's the worst contract in hockey

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Absolutely. I just think that, you know, when by game two of the season Quinn has elevated Lorentz to the second line (and he's been there now for four games), he's not giving these skill guys a chance to actually be productive. When you have Hertl and Meier struggling to produce, maybe that's a sign that adjusting to this new system--with a short camp and travel to Europe and back--isn't a piece of cake. So to me, the coach should acknowledge that and give guys some time to get going.

I just don’t see why time should be given to those that aren’t all that established in the roles that they’re not succeeding at is all. The top guys like Hertl and Meier have a better track record than guys like Labanc or Lindblom clearly so they’ll get more slack.

 

[tiburon12]

I'd want Oskar Olafsson

Don't know anything about him

 

[Gecklund]

Heryl and Couture have positive value, that's not even debatable.

Karlsdon does not, unless 50% of his cap gets eaten.

Karlsson would have value at 9M or under.

 

[landshark]

P sure it was Abraham Lincoln

 

[Levie]

We need to do anything possible to give Vancouver Reimer.

 

[Bizz]

Heryl and Couture have positive value, that's not even debatable.

Karlsdon does not, unless 50% of his cap gets eaten.

lol...

 

[Anomie2029]

Karlsson has negative value even at $5.75M, he's a broken hockey player, any positive contributions he makes on ice are negated by all of his shortcomings and he's signed to the biggest cap hit at his position for this year plus 4 more, it's the worst contract in hockey

If you honestly think Karlsson at $5.75M doesn't score you some solid trade value, you are completely delusional on the Karlsson-hate train. I know it's popular for Sharks fans to blame everything on Karlsson, but this kind on nonsense is getting out of hand.

$11.5M contract for him is bad - no one would be arguing that. But let's also remember when it was signed it was before the flat cap, so it wouldn't have handcuffed the team as much as it has.

 

[Anomie2029]

Obviously, the defense is a mess, but I’m worried about Ferraro. I can’t get a read on what he is. Is he a complimentary top 4 d-man or a bottom pairing guy? I don’t think he’s shown the ability to carry a pairing and I’m not even sure if he’s a puck-mover. Someone convince me that this guy is not becoming the Mike Brown of defensemen!

Ferraro is a bottom pairing guy. People love him because he exceeded expectations a couple of seasons ago, he has a fun personality, and he looks like he really hustles on the ice. The problem is, he is usually hustling out of position.

What's really concerning is there are a number of poor habits that he has got himself into (such as positioning of his stick) that he really needs to get himself out of. He is still a young Dman, so he can be a solid no. 4, but I don't have much higher expectations for him. The problem is, on this team he needs to be a top pairing guy.

 

[Bizz]

If you honestly think Karlsson at $5.75M doesn't score you some solid trade value, you are completely delusional on the Karlsson-hate train. I know it's popular for Sharks fans to blame everything on Karlsson, but this kind on nonsense is getting out of hand.

$11.5M contract for him is bad - no one would be arguing that. But let's also remember when it was signed it was before the flat cap, so it wouldn't have handcuffed the team as much as it has.

Not to mention California is one of the most overtaxed states in the nation. Sometimes a Free Agent needs to be overpaid for them to even consider signing with a team here. I can't even remember a time when the Kings or Ducks signed a player of his caliber.

 

[timorous me]

Ferraro is a bottom pairing guy. People love him because he exceeded expectations a couple of seasons ago, he has a fun personality, and he looks like he really hustles on the ice. The problem is, he is usually hustling out of position.

What's really concerning is there are a number of poor habits that he has got himself into (such as positioning of his stick) that he really needs to get himself out of. He is still a young Dman, so he can be a solid no. 4, but I don't have much higher expectations for him. The problem is, on this team he needs to be a top pairing guy.

Ferraro definitely needs some good coaching, and I'd also like to see him get a good run for a while with Karlsson as his partner. It might be hard to do that until/unless Nutivaraa can join the lineup, though, but I think they could be good for one another (again, if Ferraro is simultaneously being coached well). I don't think Burns was a great partner for Ferraro because of his style; the lack of structure basically made it okay--maybe even necessary--for Ferraro to play something of a wild, unstructured way himself.

While Karlsson is an attacking defenseman and can get out of position sometimes, he still seems to do his business within the structure of the defense more than Burns, and Ferraro's recovery speed could be useful alongside him. They're both likely going to be around San Jose for a while, so why not see if they can figure out how to work well together?

 

[TheBeard]

Ferraro would benefit from having a good, traditional defenceman to pair with. Not the hybrid type like Burns, the solely-offensive like EK65 or the geriatric like Vlasic.

 

[sharski]

Not to mention California is one of the most overtaxed states in the nation. Sometimes a Free Agent needs to be overpaid for them to even consider signing with a team here. I can't even remember a time when the Kings or Ducks signed a player of his caliber.

brb collecting signatures for a ballot initiative that will demand all sports leagues make state taxes exempt from the cap