Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[seroes]

Centers I would definitely take over Hertl next season (just on talent, ignoring contracts): McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Point, Barkov, Pettersson, Hughes, Crosby, Thompson, Hintz, Eichel, Aho, Kopitar, Malkin, Zibanejad, Hischier, Stutzle.

That’s only 18 centers. You could argue for up to 13 others (Lindholm, Larkin, Tavares, Dubois, Barzal, whoever else) and Hertl still lands within the top 32. He’s a 1C, full stop. Feels like people are letting one down year where he still scored at a 65 point pace shape their entire opinion of him.

I more or less agree with this. Hertl had a down year and it happens. Especially to a player in Hertls talent range. If he has another down season next year then I will be concerned. He does however need talent around him to win. He isn't someone who can do it all by himself like alot of those guys you first mentioned. That makes him an average 1C but not an elite one. Our issue is the team around him is terrible.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

Im sorry but Hertl is not an average Center…

 

[sharski]

With the down season and criticism that comes with it, maybe finally FINALLY we'll get the Hertl heel turn that's long overdue

 

[hohosaregood]

Current Hertl is pretty average 1C. Hertl circa 2019ish was a bonafide star 1C

 

[WTFetus]

Centers I would definitely take over Hertl next season (just on talent, ignoring contracts): McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Point, Barkov, Pettersson, Hughes, Crosby, Thompson, Hintz, Eichel, Aho, Kopitar, Malkin, Zibanejad, Hischier, Stutzle.

That’s only 18 centers. You could argue for up to 13 others (Lindholm, Larkin, Tavares, Dubois, Barzal, whoever else) and Hertl still lands within the top 32. He’s a 1C, full stop. Feels like people are letting one down year where he still scored at a 65 point pace shape their entire opinion of him.

I don't necessarily disagree, but it's been two seasons at ~65 point pace now.
I think the main criticism is the odd infatuation of Hertl while criticizing Couture at every step and calling him a "coworker". Hertl had just as many off games if not more than Couture this year. Couture also still had a more productive season despite his changing linemates while Hertl was essentially stapled to Meier. I think there's still a bias towards the "fun must be always" Hertl when he hasn't been like that for years.

 

[gaucholoco3]

There are many factors that can impact when the Sharks make the playoffs. For example let’s say that MG doesn’t budge on an EK trade and he stays. Mathew’s is convinced my Marleau that SJ is the best place for him.
24/25
Hertl - Mathews (14 mil) - Zadina
Eklund - Will Smith - Couture
Peterson - Sturm - Kunin
Gushchin - Bystedt - Zetterlund

Thurn - EK
Ferraro - Benning
Vlassic - Burroughs

Blackwood
Chrona

This lineup has roughly 2 million in space without accounting for the expected cap increase. So they could upgrade with a top 4 D or Muk blossoms.

This is probably a playoff team.

 

[Cas]

There are many factors that can impact when the Sharks make the playoffs. For example let’s say that MG doesn’t budge on an EK trade and he stays. Mathew’s is convinced my Marleau that SJ is the best place for him.
24/25
Hertl - Mathews (14 mil) - Zadina
Eklund - Will Smith - Couture
Peterson - Sturm - Kunin
Gushchin - Bystedt - Zetterlund

Thurn - EK
Ferraro - Benning
Vlassic - Burroughs

Blackwood
Chrona

This lineup has roughly 2 million in space without accounting for the expected cap increase. So they could upgrade with a top 4 D or Muk blossoms.

This is probably a playoff team.

Betting on getting Matthews is not a bet I'd make. Odds are he stays in Toronto.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Betting on getting Matthews is not a bet I'd make. Odds are he stays in Toronto.

Oh I know it’s not realistic but just providing an example that getting back to the playoffs doesn’t have to be a 5-10 year process.

 

[hohosaregood]

Betting on getting Matthews is not a bet I'd make. Odds are he stays in Toronto.

Although, David Quinn is apparently buddies with most of the Team USA hockey players so it might not be the craziest thing in the world to think he could help sway a star player to come to SJ.

 

[TheBeard]

Centers I would definitely take over Hertl next season (just on talent, ignoring contracts): McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Point, Barkov, Pettersson, Hughes, Crosby, Thompson, Hintz, Eichel, Aho, Kopitar, Malkin, Zibanejad, Hischier, Stutzle.

That’s only 18 centers. You could argue for up to 13 others (Lindholm, Larkin, Tavares, Dubois, Barzal, whoever else) and Hertl still lands within the top 32. He’s a 1C, full stop. Feels like people are letting one down year where he still scored at a 65 point pace shape their entire opinion of him.

Dude has had one season over 65 point pace (i'm excluding his shortened 20-21 season because of injuries and because he had 15 of his 43 points in his last 11 games when the team was long out of contention). He's almost 30. He's not suddenly going to break out and become a 40 goal/85 point guy).

What we saw last year is who he is. A high-end 2C.

Although, David Quinn is apparently buddies with most of the Team USA hockey players so it might not be the craziest thing in the world to think he could help sway a star player to come to SJ.

You ever head the phrase "I'd never want to be a member of any club that would want me as a member"? That's how I feel about Matthews, or really any premiere free agent right now. Anyone in their prime coming here at this point of the team's rebuild is chasing dollars.

 

[Jargon]

Hertl’s “fun must be always” personality switched to “darkness surrounds me, all is lost, death approaches” recently. He did great on a good team but I think his soul has been sucked out of him lately.

I actually think he’s going to have a killer season next year. I think something clicked with him at the end of the year (from the interviews) where he realized he has to grow and get faster and keep getting better to be a real leader on the team. All the workout videos of him online give me hope that he’s going to come out and dominate the way we’ve seen him dominate. We’ll see though.

 

[TheBeard]

Hertl’s “fun must be always” personality switched to “darkness surrounds me, all is lost, death approaches” recently. He did great on a good team but I think his soul has been sucked out of him lately.

I actually think he’s going to have a killer season next year. I think something clicked with him at the end of the year (from the interviews) where he realized he has to grow and get faster and keep getting better to be a real leader on the team. All the workout videos of him online give me hope that he’s going to come out and dominate the way we’ve seen him dominate. We’ll see though.

I guess hope must be always?

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

Hertl’s “fun must be always” personality switched to “darkness surrounds me, all is lost, death approaches” recently. He did great on a good team but I think his soul has been sucked out of him lately.

I actually think he’s going to have a killer season next year. I think something clicked with him at the end of the year (from the interviews) where he realized he has to grow and get faster and keep getting better to be a real leader on the team. All the workout videos of him online give me hope that he’s going to come out and dominate the way we’ve seen him dominate. We’ll see though.

Maybe it's the stress of having a newborn and losing sleep and having to help your wife and your newborn. Ive seen Hertl take his older kid and some other kid (possibly a family friends kid) to the Willow Glen library so he might not use a nanny and feels the need to do it all (even though its too much)

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Maybe it's the stress of having a newborn and losing sleep and having to help your wife and your newborn. Ive seen Hertl take his older kid and some other kid (possibly a family friends kid) to the Willow Glen library so he might not use a nanny and feels the need to do it all (even though its too much)

Man, you witnessed him take his kid to the library, and based off of that you ascribe that he might be over involved with his family?

 

[Levie]

Man, you witnessed him take his kid to the library, and based off of that you ascribe that he might be over involved with his family?

I agree with him. Anyone using the library right now probably doesn't have access to the internet. Hertl must have blown all his salary after he picked up Kane's extracurricular hobbies.

 

[landshark]

I agree with him. Anyone using the library right now probably doesn't have access to the internet. Hertl must have blown all his salary after he picked up Kane's extracurricular hobbies.

Hertl to Winnipeg e5

He's already used to no internets...

 

[Hodge]

Dude has had one season over 65 point pace (i'm excluding his shortened 20-21 season because of injuries and because he had 15 of his 43 points in his last 11 games when the team was long out of contention). He's almost 30. He's not suddenly going to break out and become a 40 goal/85 point guy).

What we saw last year is who he is. A high-end 2C.


You ever head the phrase "I'd never want to be a member of any club that would want me as a member"? That's how I feel about Matthews, or really any premiere free agent right now. Anyone in their prime coming here at this point of the team's rebuild is chasing dollars.

Who said Hertl was going to break out and score 40 goals? And when did that become the bar for a 1C?

 

[Sysreq]

Hertl isn't an S-tier (ie: franchise) 1C. Probably B/C-tier. S-tier 2C though. Like that's not a knock on him. Couture is in the same boat. Even dudes like Tavares walk that line.

 

[ISharkted]

Who said Hertl was going to break out and score 40 goals? And when did that become the bar for a 1C?

I thought young Hertl looked like an up and coming league top 5 center until the between the legs goal - was that his fourth goal that night against the NYR - and he got talked to by coaching and the vets on what is appropriate in the NHL. I feel like that stifled his creativity and he has not been the same since, or at least his ceiling changed when creativity was squashed.

“Fun must not be had always” - Sharks

 

[TheBeard]

I thought young Hertl looked like an up and coming league top 5 center until the between the legs goal - was that his fourth goal that night against the NYR - and he got talked to by coaching and the vets on what is appropriate in the NHL. I feel like that stifled his creativity and he has not been the same since, or at least his ceiling changed when creativity was squashed.

“Fun must not be had always” - Sharks

Pretty sure it was the gnarly knee injury more than anything.

 

[TheBeard]

Who said Hertl was going to break out and score 40 goals? And when did that become the bar for a 1C?

It should be the bar. Either an elite playmaker or a sniper. He’s neither. Just a good all-around forward.

To put it into context, 45 centers had more goals than he did.

 

[WTFetus]

I thought young Hertl looked like an up and coming league top 5 center until the between the legs goal - was that his fourth goal that night against the NYR - and he got talked to by coaching and the vets on what is appropriate in the NHL. I feel like that stifled his creativity and he has not been the same since, or at least his ceiling changed when creativity was squashed.

“Fun must not be had always” - Sharks

Surgery to his MCL and PCL were likely bigger factors than stifling his creativity...

 

[Hodge]

It should be the bar. Either an elite playmaker or a sniper. He’s neither. Just a good all-around forward.

To put it into context, 45 centers had more goals than he did.

8 centers scored 40 goals last season. So in your view there are only 8 1Cs in the league?

Hertl is a below average 1C. You can't reasonably argue there are 31 centers superior to him.

 

[TheBeard]

8 centers scored 40 goals last season. So in your view there are only 8 1Cs in the league?

Hertl is a below average 1C. You can't reasonably argue there are 31 centers superior to him.

31? No. 22-26? Probably. If you want to make an argument he would be a 1C on a few teams almost by default then sure. So I suppose a better way to put it it is if he’s your Ic then you’re in trouble.

 

[Hodge]

31? No. 22-26? Probably. If you want to make an argument he would be a 1C on a few teams almost by default then sure. So I suppose a better way to put it it is if he’s your Ic then you’re in trouble.

The discussion was just over whether or not Hertl is a 1C, not whether he's a particularly great 1C. Although I would note that at his peak in 2018-19 Hertl was our 1C on a very good team. He will probably not get back to that level but he's still easily a top 32 center in the league.