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Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

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Grier is too classy for this, and it's unlikely to work anyway, but I would try to strongarm Karlsson into a contract termination. If he really is serious about wanting to play for a contender he's welcome to leave and sign with one.

Dumping the full freight of Karlsson's cap hit is so much more valuable to us long term than the late 1st and shit tier prospect we are likely to receive in trade while also being forced to retain millions per year and take cap dump contracts back.
 
Hodge said:
Grier is too classy for this, and it's unlikely to work anyway, but I would try to strongarm Karlsson into a contract termination. If he really is serious about wanting to play for a contender he's welcome to leave and sign with one.

Dumping the full freight of Karlsson's cap hit is so much more valuable to us long term than the late 1st and shit tier prospect we are likely to receive in trade while also being forced to retain millions per year and take cap dump contracts back.
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Certainly an interesting idea, but based on what Karlsson said about his personal market value I highly doubt he would do that.

I think the irony of the whole situation is Karlsson has no leverage with the Sharks because of his contract, which is also why the Sharks have no leverage in any trade discussions. I'm very interested to see how this all plays out.
 
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Hodge said:
Grier is too classy for this, and it's unlikely to work anyway, but I would try to strongarm Karlsson into a contract termination. If he really is serious about wanting to play for a contender he's welcome to leave and sign with one.

Dumping the full freight of Karlsson's cap hit is so much more valuable to us long term than the late 1st and shit tier prospect we are likely to receive in trade while also being forced to retain millions per year and take cap dump contracts back.
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In this hypothetical world. Could we have Karlsson negotiate a new contract with a team then only agree to mutually terminate his contract if we receive a trade for "futures"?
 
Karl isn't negotiating from a point of strength. He has to play for the sharks and play well or his chances of being traded get worse. He's a smart man, he knows this. He has zero leverage if he really wants to "win" and it's not just lip service because he wants out of SJ.
 
Lebanezer said:
Certainly an interesting idea, but based on what Karlsson said about his personal market value I highly doubt he would do that.

I think the irony of the whole situation is Karlsson has no leverage with the Sharks because of his contract, which is also why the Sharks have no leverage in any trade discussions. I'm very interested to see how this all plays out.
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one2gamble said:
Karl isn't negotiating from a point of strength. He has to play for the sharks and play well or his chances of being traded get worse. He's a smart man, he knows this. He has zero leverage if he really wants to "win" and it's not just lip service because he wants out of SJ.
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I think GMMG is determined to get what he wants in an EK65 trade and is willing to see EK65 play here as long as it takes to get the deal he wants

But what I'm pretty sure is gonna happen is that EK65 and the sharks will go into the season with a handshake agreement to play in a way that pads his stats like crazy so that his trade value stays high and the team loses as many games as possible
 
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sharski said:
I think GMMG is determined to get what he wants in an EK65 trade and is willing to see EK65 play here as long as it takes to get the deal he wants

But what I'm pretty sure is gonna happen is that EK65 and the sharks will go into the season with a handshake agreement to play in a way that pads his stats like crazy so that his trade value stays high and the team loses as many games as possible
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There’s no possible way they have a handshake agreement of some sort. That’s also exactly what happened this past season. EK’s stats were padded while the Sharks floundered.
 
Hodge said:
Grier is too classy for this, and it's unlikely to work anyway, but I would try to strongarm Karlsson into a contract termination. If he really is serious about wanting to play for a contender he's welcome to leave and sign with one.

Dumping the full freight of Karlsson's cap hit is so much more valuable to us long term than the late 1st and shit tier prospect we are likely to receive in trade while also being forced to retain millions per year and take cap dump contracts back.
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I disagree that it is better to dump the full contract. The 3-4 million they retain for 4 years will not impact the teams ability to compete. Also deals to weaponize cap space are just not materializing and won’t be more valuable than the return they get for EK.

Even late 1st have value. They can turn into Musty which looks like a solid top 6 prospect or be used as trade chips to move up or down the draft board.

Getting a 1st is worth the retention and it’s likely they will get more future assets than just a late 1st. I think if Petry would waive to go to SJ it would have been a done deal.
 
EK65 would probably get traded faster if he choose his words more wisely, let Grier do his job and I’m not a Grier fan. For f***s sake don’t handcuff the guy on a deal that’s already going to be difficult
 
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I’d greatly prefer that GMMG bides his time with the Karlsson trade. If all he has on his table is crap-tier trades then not much is lost for waiting. The Duchene trade is a great example of a GM patiently waiting until a viable trade was possible.

For anyone that wants the trade to happen “so it can be over” maybe reflect on why this situation is weighing so heavily on you. This professional sports, these situations happen all the time. While the stakes are high for Karlsson, Grier, and the organization - they aren’t high for me, a fan. Sit back. Enjoy the drama and the show.
 
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Hodge said:
Grier is too classy for this, and it's unlikely to work anyway, but I would try to strongarm Karlsson into a contract termination. If he really is serious about wanting to play for a contender he's welcome to leave and sign with one.

Dumping the full freight of Karlsson's cap hit is so much more valuable to us long term than the late 1st and shit tier prospect we are likely to receive in trade while also being forced to retain millions per year and take cap dump contracts back.
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Karlsson came out today and essentially said he has no regrets completely ruining the team's structure because of his contract. A buyout I could've seen, but not termination. Karlsson intends to get every dollar of that contract, but this is all wrong if I have it wrong and the player still gets the money after termination as well. I don't think he wants to win that bad. He strikes me as a more of a want to be known as a Champion type of guy rather than wanting to actually win it himself.

It was always going to end one of two ways. A: Karlsson gets traded for basically nothing (similar to Burns. I will be shocked if Dubas has actually offered 2 1st rounders + a prospect.) B: Grier continues to be stubborn and keeps Karlsson until the boiling point between them occurs similar to Ottawa, and then he gets traded for nothing. I've been under the assumption that a big reason Karlsson played well this season was because he expected to be traded/be able to be traded because he wasn't before, so I imagine he's getting ticked off whether he shows it or not the longer it takes, but as STL said earlier, there was no reason to believe this was going to happen any sooner than now. The Ottawa trade took years and that was even under far better circumstances.
 
I would trade Karl for future considerations if he could be moved with no retention. I honestly don't really care what they get but it should be a hockey trade and not a "favor" trade like Burns.
 
Sharkz4Fun said:
Karlsson came out today and essentially said he has no regrets completely ruining the team's structure because of his contract. A buyout I could've seen, but not termination. Karlsson intends to get every dollar of that contract, but this is all wrong if I have it wrong and the player still gets the money after termination as well. I don't think he wants to win that bad. He strikes me as a more of a want to be known as a Champion type of guy rather than wanting to actually win it himself.

It was always going to end one of two ways. A: Karlsson gets traded for basically nothing (similar to Burns. I will be shocked if Dubas has actually offered 2 1st rounders + a prospect.) B: Grier continues to be stubborn and keeps Karlsson until the boiling point between them occurs similar to Ottawa, and then he gets traded for nothing. I've been under the assumption that a big reason Karlsson played well this season was because he expected to be traded/be able to be traded because he wasn't before, so I imagine he's getting ticked off whether he shows it or not the longer it takes, but as STL said earlier, there was no reason to believe this was going to happen any sooner than now. The Ottawa trade took years and that was even under far better circumstances.
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I mean, there’s any number of outcomes besides your two, but if we have to go through some boiling point and suffer through the Ottawa outcome, like, I’d be fine with that. He certainly didn’t get traded for nothing and certainly not pennies on the dollar.
 
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Much like Meier I never felt like Karlsson was a Shark. Just seemed like he picked here purely because he got paid. I hoped it would benefit us though.
 
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gaucholoco3 said:
I disagree that it is better to dump the full contract. The 3-4 million they retain for 4 years will not impact the teams ability to compete. Also deals to weaponize cap space are just not materializing and won’t be more valuable than the return they get for EK.

Even late 1st have value. They can turn into Musty which looks like a solid top 6 prospect or be used as trade chips to move up or down the draft board.

Getting a 1st is worth the retention and it’s likely they will get more future assets than just a late 1st. I think if Petry would waive to go to SJ it would have been a done deal.
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I don't see how retaining that much salary wouldn't impact our ability to compete. 3-4 million is a lot, on top of the dead money we're already carrying from the Burns trade and Jones buyout.

If we could somehow dump the entire Karlsson contract we could go through one more tank year to hopefully land a top 5 pick then immediately have the flexibility to trade for or sign pretty much anyone who's on the market and willing to play for us. If Elias Pettersson, for example, goes the pre-agency route next summer a la Dubois/Tkachuk we would have the assets and cap space to make a legit offer.
 
one2gamble said:
Karl isn't negotiating from a point of strength. He has to play for the sharks and play well or his chances of being traded get worse. He's a smart man, he knows this. He has zero leverage if he really wants to "win" and it's not just lip service because he wants out of SJ.
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I don’t think he is lying. Isn’t San jose a beautiful place to live? I feel like it’s like La. players love being there.
 
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Hodge said:
I don't see how retaining that much salary wouldn't impact our ability to compete. 3-4 million is a lot, on top of the dead money we're already carrying from the Burns trade and Jones buyout.

If we could somehow dump the entire Karlsson contract we could go through one more tank year to hopefully land a top 5 pick then immediately have the flexibility to trade for or sign pretty much anyone who's on the market and willing to play for us. If Elias Pettersson, for example, goes the pre-agency route next summer a la Dubois/Tkachuk we would have the assets and cap space to make a legit offer.
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Retaining 4 million on EK is also clearing 7.5 million from the cap.

In cap friendly’s Armchair GM I put in a trade that had the Sharks take back both Granlund and Petry 11 million in cap for the next 2 years.

This year - cap won’t matter since they will be one of the worst teams in the league. They would have 2.75 million in cap space (with burying Lindblom) so they might not have the money for a Tarasanko 1 year deal but they also would not have any roster spots available with all the players on NHL deals.

Next year - the team will still be very bad so it wouldn’t be wise to spend a premium on players in FA. With that said they will still have a ton of cap. Without resigning any UFA’s

I added random 4th liners at 1 mil
Thurn and Peterson at 2 mil
Zadina at 3.5 mil

I had one open roster spot and 14 million in cap space without increasing the cap.

The years after - 11 million from Petry and Granlund come off the book so even with a flat cap they wouldn’t be hurt by the retention.

If the Sharks trade EK they will be more concerned with not going below the cap floor than spending to the cap.

Also in the Pettersson scenario they would have the cap and it would be easier to make the deal with an extra 1 or 2 1st round picks from an EK trade.
 
That math doesn't add up when you talk about real dollars for the return. I don't see why Hasso would do that when it doesn't really make the team better
 
one2gamble said:
That math doesn't add up when you talk about real dollars for the return. I don't see why Hasso would do that when it doesn't really make the team better
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What is wrong with getting 24 1st, 25 1st for taking on Petry and Granlund even with EK at $4 million retention. Those are two important assets also for a team that is didn’t make the playoffs last year and old with the potential to fall off a cliff.

Hasso has had no problem spending to the cap every year. They will be 15 million under the cap next season even with taking on 11 million for the two Pit cap dumps.

People don’t realize the Sharks have a lot of money coming off the books after this season.
 
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gaucholoco3 said:
What is wrong with getting 24 1st, 25 1st for taking on Petry and Granlund even with EK at $4 million retention. Those are two important assets also for a team that is didn’t make the playoffs last year and old with the potential to fall off a cliff.

Hasso has had no problem spending to the cap every year. They will be 15 million under the cap next season even with taking on 11 million for the two Pit cap dumps.

People don’t realize the Sharks have a lot of money coming off the books after this season.
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Only go from 5 million this year to 36 million next season. Pennies lol
 
Hodge said:
I don't see how retaining that much salary wouldn't impact our ability to compete. 3-4 million is a lot, on top of the dead money we're already carrying from the Burns trade and Jones buyout.

If we could somehow dump the entire Karlsson contract we could go through one more tank year to hopefully land a top 5 pick then immediately have the flexibility to trade for or sign pretty much anyone who's on the market and willing to play for us. If Elias Pettersson, for example, goes the pre-agency route next summer a la Dubois/Tkachuk we would have the assets and cap space to make a legit offer.
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The Sharks are not a year or two away from competing. Even if they get 1OA in 24, they cannot fill out the top 6 forwards and top 4 D. Few star players change teams through UFA; Tavares and Pieterangelo are the only two I can think of. Upcoming UFA status does produce trades of stars (Stone and many others), but the Sharks won't have the assets to make trades other than future draft picks which they need to keep to fill out the team.

Because the Sharks will be uncompetitive for the next two or three seasons, cap hits do not matter. Salaries paid do. Reducing salaries paid reduces the owner's loss during the uncompetitive seasons. That is the reason to trade Karlsson with retention for assets (prospects and draft picks) that might contribute to the team if it becomes competitive five years from now.
 
I made the point elsewhere, but we should act as though we expect our window of real contention to open around 2030 (perhaps making the playoffs by 2028).

This is going to be true regardless of what management does or wants.
 
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