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2022/23 Roster Thread II: Worth Every Penny

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I think issue is the 2nd major piece back

If speculation about Hawks rejecting a high 1st + 1st and player/prospect is true, then it likely was Flyers (IMO) offering 5th + Panthers and someone like Ratcliffe

For Hawks the 5th is appealing, and the likely late Panthers 1st has value but not great value. Ratcliffe to me as an outsider looks like a pretty underwhelming talent at this point from time in AHL and NHL (You guys may disagree)

If a trade is going to happen between teams involving Debrincat the likely asset upgrade will require either Flyers 2023 or RW Bobby Brink to be in deal which likely are what Flyers are not willing to do

Hawks are not willing to give away Debrincat for one high value asset (5th overall) given his pedigree and age at this point
 
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Over the course of like 3 days DeBrincat became the most overrated player in the NHL. Chuck Fletcher is known to do that to the perceived value of a player on a different team that he covets.
 
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Blackhawkswincup said:
I think issue is the 2nd major piece back

If speculation about Hawks rejecting a high 1st + 1st and player/prospect is true, then it likely was Flyers (IMO) offering 5th + Panthers and someone like Ratcliffe

For Hawks the 5th is appealing, and the likely late Panthers 1st has value but not great value. Ratcliffe to me as an outsider looks like a pretty underwhelming talent at this point from time in AHL and NHL (You guys may disagree)

If a trade is going to happen between teams involving Debrincat the likely asset upgrade will require either Flyers 2023 or RW Bobby Brink to be in deal which likely are what Flyers are not willing to do

Hawks are not willing to give away Debrincat for one high value asset (5th overall) given his pedigree and age at this point
Click to expand...

How little you know the mind of Felcher

If we do make the DeBrincat trade, I have no doubt it'll include Bobby Brink
 
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Blackhawkswincup said:
I think issue is the 2nd major piece back

If speculation about Hawks rejecting a high 1st + 1st and player/prospect is true, then it likely was Flyers (IMO) offering 5th + Panthers and someone like Ratcliffe

For Hawks the 5th is appealing, and the likely late Panthers 1st has value but not great value. Ratcliffe to me as an outsider looks like a pretty underwhelming talent at this point from time in AHL and NHL (You guys may disagree)

If a trade is going to happen between teams involving Debrincat the likely asset upgrade will require either Flyers 2023 or RW Bobby Brink to be in deal which likely are what Flyers are not willing to do

Hawks are not willing to give away Debrincat for one high value asset (5th overall) given his pedigree and age at this point
Click to expand...
I think you are spot on here.

I don’t know if they would part with the Flyers 2023 pick. I’d honestly be very upset if that happens. I won’t kill the org if they go 5OA and 2023 Panthers though. I’ve accepted the retool at this point.
 
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I think people are underestimating just how against the grain this rumored Debrincat trade would be. Can anyone name the last time an NHL team knowingly traded a top 5 pick that wasn’t chiefly for another pick in the same 1st round?

As near as I can tell, it was Joni Pitkanen in 2002. But even that had two 2nds coming back in addition to Fedotenko.

Before that, you had Kevin Weekes + Kristian Krudoc + a 2 for 5OA in 2000. You also had the Sedin machinations the previous year, but those also involved picks.

In order to find a straight up trade of a known top 5 pick (with or without other assets) for a vet, you’ve got to go back to the Kings trading 4 and 85 for Byron Dafoe (and Dmitri Khristich). That’s so long ago that Eric Lindros had played less than 200 NHL games.
 
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I’m actually laughing at those Twitter fans who essentially have the attention span of a dog on a porch trying to chase every thing passing by. They’re working themselves right back into a trap to be let down again. :laugh:

Like we got people deluding themselves into the possibility of getting both DeBrincat & Gaudreau now somehow.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
I think people are underestimating just how against the grain this rumored Debrincat trade would be. Can anyone name the last time an NHL team knowingly traded a top 5 pick that wasn’t chiefly for another pick in the same 1st round?

As near as I can tell, it was Joni Pitkanen in 2002. But even that had two 2nds coming back in addition to Fedotenko.

Before that, you had Kevin Weekes + Kristian Krudoc + a 2 for 5OA in 2000. You also had the Sedin machinations the previous year, but those also involved picks.

In order to find a straight up trade of a known top 5 pick (with or without other assets) for a vet, you’ve got to go back to the Kings trading 4 and 85 for Byron Dafoe (and Dmitri Khristich). That’s so long ago that Eric Lindros had played less than 200 NHL games.
Click to expand...

I realized this last week when I was trying to compare the value of trading down in the 1st from the Top 10.

It was clear Top 10 picks aren't traded unless for a roster player (like Corey Schneider), but Top 5 picks are basically never ever traded.
 
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BrindamoursNose said:
I realized this last week when I was trying to compare the value of trading down in the 1st from the Top 10.

It was clear Top 10 picks aren't traded unless for a roster player (like Corey Schneider), but Top 5 picks are basically never ever traded.
Click to expand...

I figured out a much better way of describing the timeline involved here. The last strict comp happened 10 days after the NHL’s first crop of unrestricted free agents hit the market. Forget the cap. Free agency was brand new. :laugh:

Joel Otto was still 6 days away from signing with the Flyers out of that class.
 
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Lord knows Chuck Fletcher is a man of action, but you just have to chuckle at the equivalent to 3 1st round picks (with a top 5 one included) being the negotiating stance for a player a tier below elite. Better yet, with a poison pill of a $9 mil RFA qualifying contract. This isn't even a player coming with term. A re-signed 26 year old Mark Stone (about to hit UFA to be fair, but DeBrincat has full control to do the same in 1 year) was traded for a mid-1st and a late 2nd. DeBrincat does not even come close to this caliber player. Buchnevich, immediately signing a 4 year contract, was traded for a 2nd and a 4th liner. This is sheer insanity. Although the Flyers are the type of franchise to walk down the street, covered in grime, talking to itself.

Now, me? I don't view that 5th overall particularly highly in this situation, but that's where you take advantage of someone who does.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
I figured out a much better way of describing the timeline involved here. The last strict comp happened 10 days after the NHL’s first crop of unrestricted free agents hit the market. Forget the cap. Free agency was brand new. :laugh:

Joel Otto was still 6 days away from signing with the Flyers out of that class.
Click to expand...

Is the most notable Top 5 trade ever the 1999 Sedin trades, you think?

Burke wanted them both BAD...
  • Bryan McCabe and VAN 2000 1st for #4 overall.
  • Then #4 and two 3s for #1 from TB.
  • So at this point, VAN had #1 and #3 overall...but Burke wanted #2 instead of #1.
What I think is interesting is that, I can't find any record of what Burke got from Don Waddell (ATL) to downgrade from #1 to #2.
  • From what I can tell, Burke didn't get anything in return other than a promise that ATL wouldn't take either Sedin.
All just so Burke could call the Sedin twins up on stage together at the same time with picks #2 & #3

What a wild time.
 
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BrindamoursNose said:
Is the most notable Top 5 trade ever the 1999 Sedin trades, you think?

Burke wanted them both BAD...
  • Bryan McCabe and VAN 2000 1st for #4 overall.
  • Then #4 and two 3s for #1 from TB.
  • So at this point, VAN had #1 and #3 overall...but Burke wanted #2 instead of #1.
What I think is interesting is that, I can't find any record of what Burke got from Don Waddell (ATL) to downgrade from #1 to #2.
  • From what I can tell, Burke didn't get anything in return other than a promise that ATL wouldn't take either Sedin.
All just so Burke could call the Sedin twins up on stage together at the same time with picks #2 & #3

What a wild time.
Click to expand...

By strict interpretation of having to know where the pick was at the time of the trade, yes. Without knowing, it would be Montreal getting the Lafleur pick from California.

Atlanta gave up a conditional 3rd the next year to flip from 2 to 1. There's actually video of Burke on the draft floor sorting it out:

 
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JojoTheWhale said:
By strict interpretation of having to know where the pick was at the time of the trade, yes. Without knowing, it would be Montreal getting the Lafleur pick from California.

Atlanta gave up a conditional 3rd the next year to flip from 2 to 1. There's actually video of Burke on the draft floor sorting it out:

Click to expand...

Oh alleluia you found this. I was losing my mind trying to find the details...some sources said there was a pick (but didn't say what), some said it was just a promise.

Burke's no dope, so I didn't believe just a promise was enough - but having the confirmed return makes me feel complete now :cool:
 
JojoTheWhale said:
I think people are underestimating just how against the grain this rumored Debrincat trade would be. Can anyone name the last time an NHL team knowingly traded a top 5 pick that wasn’t chiefly for another pick in the same 1st round?

As near as I can tell, it was Joni Pitkanen in 2002. But even that had two 2nds coming back in addition to Fedotenko.

Before that, you had Kevin Weekes + Kristian Krudoc + a 2 for 5OA in 2000. You also had the Sedin machinations the previous year, but those also involved picks.

In order to find a straight up trade of a known top 5 pick (with or without other assets) for a vet, you’ve got to go back to the Kings trading 4 and 85 for Byron Dafoe (and Dmitri Khristich). That’s so long ago that Eric Lindros had played less than 200 NHL games.
Click to expand...
Jay Feaster was torn apart in the press by other GMs for that trade. Apparently, many, if not most GMs had no clue pick #4 was available in a draft that was supposed to have four franchise players.

At least in this case, everyone in the NHL will know that Fletcher is dying to get rid of it.
 
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I’m sure this is an echoed sentiment, but I’m currently terrified to be a Flyers fan. Debrincat? That’s who we’re are gonna throw a giant package at? Alex Debrincat? Don’t we have a poor man’s Debrincat in TK? And Johnny Hockey? Really? 9-10 million? Please for the love of god, DO NOTHING. Give us another full year to see what we have in the young guys. Please.
 
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There are rumors about teams trading their top-5 pick every year and it rarely happens. Even Fletcher himself in his last presser was kinda making fun of it:

"As you get closer you start to ask those questions because teams are calling you. Would you trade number five? Sure. You say sure, I don’t know if you always mean it. That’s the fun part of it, for us at least. Exploring what may be there, but as you just mentioned history tells you that usually you make the pick."

This time of the year it's about exploring what/who is available and to drive up the price on certain pieces that you don't even seriously want - just in case you may find a bargain.
 
Here is a thought.

That proposed Debrincat package.

Know what you could do with that? Try to move up to get Slafkovsky. I’m just being a fanboy, but the overall concept is on display there. This team could try to be aggressive in trying to move up in a draft or two, to build their own young high end core.

The current thought process is just so sad.
 
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