2022/23 Roster Thread II: Worth Every Penny

[Beef Invictus]

Voracek wasn't $8.25M for 3 years good. Not even close, a 5x5 liability whose only value was as a playmaker on the PP.
Sorta the mirror image of JVR (passer instead of goal scorer), and JVR is hard to move at 1yr/$7M.

Well, this is a fundamentally wrong assessment as well.

But it's irrelevant. The fact is that Hextall had nothing to do with how Fletcher decided to act on the situation

 

[JojoTheWhale]

How are they doing this? Even if you dump JVR without retention or salary coming back, then sign Gaudreau at 9, that leaves you with ~4.8 in cap space if you go cheap on the depth and roster all of Brink, N. Cates, York, Attard, and Seeler.

You also have 10 F, 7 D, and 1 G with Frost, Tippett, and Laczynski unsigned. Add MacEwen or Ratcliffe to that if you think they matter. If Fedotov reports, you can add him at 925k. I'll gladly defer to anyone else on the likelihood of that last bit.

Even a straight Atkinson dump doesn't really get you to where you would want to be. I believe it would take at least one of (Atkinson/Konecny/Provorov/Sanheim) and one of (Laughton/Lindblom) being reduced to a minimum salary.

Assuming:
Konecny + picks to Chicago
Gaudreau at 9 AAV
JVR dumped with 0 retention or cap hit coming back

That's $3,893,650 to sign at least 3 Forwards and a Goalie with the listed RFAs. Ideally you need some wiggle room, so you don't want to be 15k under either. You've got to lose another moderate salary somewhere.

When you look at that defense, I find it impossible to be anything but terrified.

 

[BiggE]

Assuming:
Konecny + picks to Chicago
Gaudreau at 9 AAV
JVR dumped with 0 retention or cap hit coming back

That's $3,893,650 to sign at least 3 Forwards and a Goalie with the listed RFAs. Ideally you need some wiggle room, so you don't want to be 15k under either. You've got to lose another moderate salary somewhere.

When you look at that defense, I find it impossible to be anything but terrified.

Just knowing that Cuck and the dinosaurs are running the show already both terrifies and utterly repulses me.

 

[renberg]

When you look at that defense, I find it impossible to be anything but terrified.

This is the number one issue facing this club going into the fall. Sure Torts will find schemes to play that will be better than what AV/Yeo used but its still not up to snuff. Running around looking to sign Gaudreau or trading for Debrincat is wasting time and money with this back end. And Ellis isn't playing here. Ever. So unless moves are made to bolster the blue line, put Zamula and/or Hogberg back there unless Jiricek is drafted and can fill in there.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Just knowing that Cuck and the dinosaurs are running the show already both terrifies and utterly repulses me.

I just wanted to lay that out so people would understand that in this hypothetical, they traded away a 5OA, a 14OA, another future 1st, a 4th 1st to dump JVR, 2 2nds, and probably a mid-rounder to negotiate with Gaudreau. And that's still what it would look like. Is that a contender to you?

 

[Diaper Mask Bandits]

anything that sinks team to the bottom and embarrasses the senior management dinosaurs makes me happy

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Here are some hopes: (1) that the Hawks aren't really offering Debrincat around and are doing a bunch of pre-negotiation posturing with the player's camp. He really is the only young offensive threat on the club; (2) That the Hawks are using the supposed offer from Philly to get another club to elevate what they are willing to pay in order to obtain Debrincat; (3) That Scott steps in and tells Fletcher that he can't make that deal for Debrincat.
Blackhawkswincup in the Hawk's forum thinks that the Flyers offer would be:
Flyers 2022 1st (5th overall)
Panthers 2024 1st
RW Bobby Brink
LW James Van Riemsdyk (Flyers need to move his salary to add Debrincat)
IMO, that's an atrocious proposal but it's the state of affairs when a club has a GM that the rest of the League knows that they can roll over. Obtaining Debrincat does little to solve the team's real problems-need for RHD and a center.

To be fair and accurate that is what I wish/hope Flyers offer

I suspect Brink is untouchable for Flyers, but your GM is Chuck Fletcher

As for Davidson he was patient with Hagel thing, and it worked out well and Hawks can be patient with Debrincat. Also, since Hawks have nearly $20M in cap room they have option to retain in trades potentially including Debrincat or Kane (If he asks out) or the few other trade pieces (Murphy or McCabe potentially)

 

[bauer]

Assuming:
Konecny + picks to Chicago
Gaudreau at 9 AAV
JVR dumped with 0 retention or cap hit coming back

That's $3,893,650 to sign at least 3 Forwards and a Goalie with the listed RFAs. Ideally you need some wiggle room, so you don't want to be 15k under either. You've got to lose another moderate salary somewhere.

When you look at that defense, I find it impossible to be anything but terrified.

wouldn't shock me to see Ellis LTIR and Lindblom moved. there's 9m right there. but yeah, no way to fit those guys in without having half the team making 900k. what a mess.

 

[BiggE]

I just wanted to lay that out so people would understand that in this hypothetical, they traded away a 5OA, a 14OA, another future 1st, a 4th 1st to dump JVR, 2 2nds, and probably a mid-rounder to negotiate with Gaudreau. And that's still what it would look like. Is that a contender to you?

Contender for abject failure? Absolutely

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Calgary has a $9.5x8 deal on the table for Gaudreau according to Friedman.

It sounds like NJ could be gearing up for a serious run at Gaudreau if he hits the UFA market too. So that’s another team that can outbid the Flyers & offer an east coast landing spot close to home if Calgary falls out of it.

 

[BiggE]

As a fan of this team going back the early 70s, I’m beyond disgusted. Say what you want about the Bullies, but in their era, coach Fred Shero was an innovator. Same with Pat Quinn in 79-80 and Keenan in the mid 80s. They were pretty much a Cup contender or at worst a playoff lock for nearly 20 years. And after, ripping down a foundation that was starting to come together by 92 to acquire Lindros, they were again a Cup contender or at least a playoff lock from 94 to 2004.

Now you can say lack of the cap had a lot to do with it, but the Rangers were spending more than anyone during that time period and they were often no more than a bubble team.

Even after the cap was instituted, they were able to draft guys like Giroux and Couts, sign FAs like Briere, Hartnell and Kimmo and make deals for guys like Coburn, Pronger, Jake and Simmonds. Now Hextall was far from perfect, but at the very least he cleaned up Homer’s cap mess and drafted solid players like Sanheim, Provorov, TK, Lindblom, and Hart.

While bringing in Hak was a mistake, I don’t think it really went to shit until Snider passed. The man had faults, but he legitimately valued winning over the bottom line. Since 2017 we’ve been left with a petulant Clarke and Homer forcing Hextall out, the cluelessness of Dave Scott, Val and her pet muppet Gritty, Cuck, AV and what seems to be a continuing cycle of pain with no end in sight.

Comcast doesn’t give a f*** about anything other than the bottom line, and, as long as the stadium remains a cash cow, the team, in Comcast’s eyes is irrelevant as long as they fill 75% or so of the seats and sell a few gritty dolls and a Santa sack or two.

I’m gonna be 57 this fall and, unless the team is sold or they luck into a first overall pick when a generational player is available, I know in my heart I will never see the Flyers win another Cup.

You know, for all the shit Jeff Lurie gets from some of the Eagles fanbase, I wish he owned the Flyers. At least owners like he and Middleton with the Phillies actually care about winning.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Unless they start dealing guys like TK and one of Provy/Sanheim, there is no way they can sign both. Sadly, I can absolutely see Cuck doing just that.

I think Provorov is as good as gone. How bad Chuck gets bent over is another story

 

[TheKingPin]

As a fan of this team going back the early 70s, I’m beyond disgusted. Say what you want about the Bullies, but in their era, coach Fred Shero was an innovator. Same with Pat Quinn in 79-80 and Keenan in the mid 80s. They were pretty much a Cup contender or at worst a playoff lock for nearly 20 years. And after, ripping down a foundation that was starting to come together by 92 to acquire Lindros, they were again a Cup contender or at least a playoff lock from 94 to 2004.

Now you can say lack of the cap had a lot to do with it, but the Rangers were spending more than anyone during that time period and they were often no more than a bubble team.

Even after the cap was instituted, they were able to draft guys like Giroux and Couts, sign FAs like Briere, Hartnell and Kimmo and make deals for guys like Coburn, Pronger, Jake and Simmonds. Now Hextall was far from perfect, but at the very least he cleaned up Homer’s cap mess and drafted solid players like Sanheim, Provorov, TK, Lindblom, and Hart.

While bringing in Hak was a mistake, I don’t think it really went to shit until Snider passed. The man had faults, but he legitimately valued winning over the bottom line. Since 2017 we’ve been left with a petulant Clarke and Homer forcing Hextall out, the cluelessness of Dave Scott, Val and her pet muppet Gritty, Cuck, AV and what seems to be a continuing cycle of pain with no end in sight.

Comcast doesn’t give a f*** about anything other than the bottom line, and, as long as the stadium remains a cash cow, the team, in Comcast’s eyes is irrelevant as long as they fill 75% or so of the seats and sell a few gritty dolls and a Santa sack or two.

I’m gonna be 57 this fall and, unless the team is sold or they luck into a first overall pick when a generational player is available, I know in my heart I will never see the Flyers win another Cup.

You know, for all the shit Jeff Lurie gets from some of the Eagles fanbase, I wish he owned the Flyers. At least owners like he and Middleton with the Phillies actually care about winning.

You’re going to need to vegan and workout everyday to see a cup at this rate. Obviously I hope I am wrong, but it looks like maybe 4-8 wasted years ahead followed by a rebuild which may be another 10 years. If they hit this year and next years draft you can take off some years, but there is a long way to go.

 

[Columbus Hockey Dad]

This years 1st
Next years top 10 pick
Young players
8 mill
In caps space.

Yea crippling , and like every other player in the NHL , he will regress and not put up those numbers with Kevin Hayes. We don’t have a Patty Kane here.

I think he said the 2024 first round pick obtained from Florida, not next year’s. Unless Cooley or Nemec drop to us, I would be ready to listen on dealing this year’s pick in a deal for DeBrincat. It’s not easy getting 24 year-old 40 goal scorers! But then I would NOT go after Johnny Hockey if we get him.

 

[BiggE]

You’re going to need to vegan and workout everyday to see a cup at this rate. Obviously I hope I am wrong, but it looks like maybe 4-8 wasted years ahead followed by a rebuild which may be another 10 years. If they hit this year and next years draft you can take off some years, but there is a long way to go.

I have zero faith in this team as long empty Comcast suits like Dave Scott are in charge.

 

[flyersnorth]

Heard it myself.

I don’t really understand the thinking. I mean, just this last season this showed that they were quite easily a bottom 5 team.

Long contracts are in place, but the movement to acquire a truly high end young core could have begun. Couturier alone wouldn’t have been enough to lift them into the playoffs, especially if they had the nerve to move someone like Provorov, or Sanheim who is on a very affordable contact for next season.

The continued reason for not rebuilding very much smells of ego, desperate ownership, and men unable to acknowledge their vision for how to build a contender in ‘22 simply doesn’t work. I’ve been a fan since ‘97 or so - they have never really rebuilt in my time following them. It’s an organization belief sadly.

People will point at the NYR, but Chicago along with Montreal are possibilities to lap them in a few years.

Have you listened to the latest STG? They played an interview ASF had with Torts, and that was a good listen.

The rest was just a tad discouraging to listen to. The Ellis situation, and the real possibility that he's just out for the long haul. The DeBrincat rumours that would almost certainly involve our #5 OA and York, Brink, along those lines. Farabee being out likely until US Thanksgiving. The sense that Lindblom is a buyout / trade or stealth waive candidate. The cap gymnastics the Flyers will have to juggle. Fletch possibly trading a pick to Calgary for JG's negotiating rights and to get ahead of the Devils.

I said I was ready for maximum chaos, and it sounds like it's about to get nuts. Is it too late to take it back?

 

[deadhead]

I love how rumors quickly morph into facts.

We have no idea what Torts would want, Fletcher has already said he'd consult with Torts on any NHL personnel moves, and somehow I don't think DeBrincat is a Torts kind of player. JG possibly.

I'm also not as worried about the defense, go back to 2020-21 and the defense wasn't terrible, it was decent if not much more, it was the goaltenders who deep sixed that season. While that season was a mess, it wasn't a clusterf--- like last season.

The top four were Sanheim, Provorov, Braun and Myers, with Ghost, Hagg and Gus as the other three.

Myers was a problem b/c paired with Sanheim they were a goal sieve, even though their raw metrics looked fine - just too many mistakes - slam Risto all you want, he was still a big upgrade over Myers.

Braun was out of place on the 1st pair that season, but hadn't slipped like he did the second half of last season. Still, not exactly hard to replace.

Even if Ellis doesn't play, Provorov - York is a better pairing than Provorov - Braun, Sanheim - Risto is better than Sanheim - Myers, and Zamula, Attard and Hogberg are at least a decent third group.

And if there is one thing Torts is good at, it's coaching up young players to play solid defense.
So while I don't expect a top ten group, I don't expect a disaster, either.

The real issue is why would this team break the bank for a one dimensional scorer when they're trying to get rid of one in JVR?
Better to struggle on offense, audition the kids, and see who has upside, then go back to the 2023 draft - and that's the time to think about trading/signing a skilled forward.

 

[flyersnorth]

The real issue is why would this team break the bank for a one dimensional scorer when they're trying to get rid of one in JVR?

This makes sense to me. Keep JVR and his 20-ish goals, then he's off the books at the end of the season.

This is a good year to do that - just mostly run it back, round out the roster with the young guys, and see what Torts can get out of them.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Have you listened to the latest STG? They played an interview ASF had with Torts, and that was a good listen.

The rest was just a tad discouraging to listen to. The Ellis situation, and the real possibility that he's just out for the long haul. The DeBrincat rumours that would almost certainly involve our #5 OA and York, Brink, along those lines. Farabee being out likely until US Thanksgiving. The sense that Lindblom is a buyout / trade or stealth waive candidate. The cap gymnastics the Flyers will have to juggle. Fletch possibly trading a pick to Calgary for JG's negotiating rights and to get ahead of the Devils.

I said I was ready for maximum chaos, and it sounds like it's about to get nuts. Is it too late to take it back?

Yeah, on my way to work if there is a new one.

I’m accepting of the fact they will do stupid things. I just need them to retain their own first round picks for the next few seasons. Don’t take that away from me, and I’ll be fine. They need to be untouchable.

If they pick near the top of the first round for the foreseeable future the next GM has at least a chance.

 

[Curufinwe]

JG is not the same as JVR. Don’t be ridiculous.

Calgary has a $9.5x8 deal on the table for Gaudreau according to Friedman.

It sounds like NJ could be gearing up for a serious run at Gaudreau if he hits the UFA market too. So that’s another team that can outbid the Flyers & offer an east coast landing spot close to home if Calgary falls out of it.

I saw Devils fans getting oddly upset because some journalist said Philly was one of the likely destinations for Gaudreau. I guess that explains why.

 

[Pantokrator]

This makes sense to me. Keep JVR and his 20-ish goals, then he's off the books at the end of the season.

This is a good year to do that - just mostly run it back, round out the roster with the young guys, and see what Torts can get out of them.

I agree - heck, if you trade JVR at the deadline you could probably get a second for him since he brings consistent goal scoring. But that would be a Hextall way of thinkin - getting rid of bad contracts and actually gaining something out of it. But this management said it is only 1 or 2 players away from competing, which means clearing cap space now to sign another bad long term contract.

I am all in favor of a rebuild, but the Flyers are not, so we all have to live with another Holmgrenesque roster of bad contracts, no draft picks, and no prospects - a return to 2013 era.

I anticipate the team missing the playoffs for the next 6 years, leading to an 8 year drought. I hope that this eventually leads to the team being sold because it doesn't make money, and then maybe a new owner comes in and gets rid of Clarke.

At this point I see Clarke like the Emperor from Star Wars. I don't think he will ever die.

 

[deadhead]

JG is not the same as JVR. Don’t be ridiculous.


I saw Devils fans getting oddly upset because some journalist said Philly was one of the likely destinations for Gaudreau. I guess that explains why.

I was thinking more DeBrincat on a one year deal - because you'll have to pay the UFA freight in any case.

JG is a better two way player than DeBrincat, but his age doesn't make sense for this team unless he comes at a big hometown discount, but he'd have to walk way from something on the order of $13M (8x9.5 v 7x9) for it to make sense for the Flyers (in effect replacing G's $8.25M with JG's $9M).

 

[Pantokrator]

As a fan of this team going back the early 70s, I’m beyond disgusted. Say what you want about the Bullies, but in their era, coach Fred Shero was an innovator. Same with Pat Quinn in 79-80 and Keenan in the mid 80s. They were pretty much a Cup contender or at worst a playoff lock for nearly 20 years. And after, ripping down a foundation that was starting to come together by 92 to acquire Lindros, they were again a Cup contender or at least a playoff lock from 94 to 2004.

Now you can say lack of the cap had a lot to do with it, but the Rangers were spending more than anyone during that time period and they were often no more than a bubble team.

Even after the cap was instituted, they were able to draft guys like Giroux and Couts, sign FAs like Briere, Hartnell and Kimmo and make deals for guys like Coburn, Pronger, Jake and Simmonds. Now Hextall was far from perfect, but at the very least he cleaned up Homer’s cap mess and drafted solid players like Sanheim, Provorov, TK, Lindblom, and Hart.

While bringing in Hak was a mistake, I don’t think it really went to shit until Snider passed. The man had faults, but he legitimately valued winning over the bottom line. Since 2017 we’ve been left with a petulant Clarke and Homer forcing Hextall out, the cluelessness of Dave Scott, Val and her pet muppet Gritty, Cuck, AV and what seems to be a continuing cycle of pain with no end in sight.

Comcast doesn’t give a f*** about anything other than the bottom line, and, as long as the stadium remains a cash cow, the team, in Comcast’s eyes is irrelevant as long as they fill 75% or so of the seats and sell a few gritty dolls and a Santa sack or two.

I’m gonna be 57 this fall and, unless the team is sold or they luck into a first overall pick when a generational player is available, I know in my heart I will never see the Flyers win another Cup.

You know, for all the shit Jeff Lurie gets from some of the Eagles fanbase, I wish he owned the Flyers. At least owners like he and Middleton with the Phillies actually care about winning.

I agree with this. I also beleive that the team is cursed - it's probably just narcissistic, but it seems that if something could go wrong with the Flyers it will. I am sure other teams feel the same way, but going back to 1976 Bernie Parent has his eye poked, 1980 there is Leon Stickle, 1985 Lindbergh dies, 1987 finals Kerr, Propp and Poulin were all injured in some way, Eric Lindros has concussion problems, Keith Primeau has concussion problems, Flyers, by far the worst team in the NHL, lose the lottery, thereby NOT getting Patrick Kane and getting JVR instead, Chris Pronger has concussion problems after trading away 10 years of first rounders for him, Nolan Patrick is broken - it is as if things work against the Flyers, and in the past, it wasn't stupidity that hurt the Flyers, but fate. Now we are just stupid though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I love how rumors quickly morph into facts.

We have no idea what Torts would want, Fletcher has already said he'd consult with Torts on any NHL personnel moves, and somehow I don't think DeBrincat is a Torts kind of player. JG possibly.

I'm also not as worried about the defense, go back to 2020-21 and the defense wasn't terrible, it was decent if not much more, it was the goaltenders who deep sixed that season. While that season was a mess, it wasn't a clusterf--- like last season.

The top four were Sanheim, Provorov, Braun and Myers, with Ghost, Hagg and Gus as the other three.

Myers was a problem b/c paired with Sanheim they were a goal sieve, even though their raw metrics looked fine - just too many mistakes - slam Risto all you want, he was still a big upgrade over Myers.

Braun was out of place on the 1st pair that season, but hadn't slipped like he did the second half of last season. Still, not exactly hard to replace.

Even if Ellis doesn't play, Provorov - York is a better pairing than Provorov - Braun, Sanheim - Risto is better than Sanheim - Myers, and Zamula, Attard and Hogberg are at least a decent third group.

And if there is one thing Torts is good at, it's coaching up young players to play solid defense.
So while I don't expect a top ten group, I don't expect a disaster, either.

The real issue is why would this team break the bank for a one dimensional scorer when they're trying to get rid of one in JVR?
Better to struggle on offense, audition the kids, and see who has upside, then go back to the 2023 draft - and that's the time to think about trading/signing a skilled forward.

Why did the team break the bank for a terrible defenseman and then extend him when they were trying to get better on defense? Bad management does bad things.

 

[Vakarte]

So how much belief do you guys have in Risto under Torts?