All that really matters in the end.
Rumor: 2022-2023 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: The Search for a 2C
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They tried that, it didn’t work. If guys like EJ and Manson could actually do the job then Makar’s role on the PK could be dramatically reduced. Unfortunately they’re both abominable at it. IMO (and people can slag me for this all they want but it’s true) Englund has been better killing penalties than either of them.
But also, the guy they miss most on the PK is Helm.
Worth it.
dahrougem2
Registered User
PK doesn't have to be superb during the regular season. Avs were middle of the pack last season and slightly above average in the playoffs. Not killing Makar is way more important. I'd happily rather sacrifice EJ/Manson/Toews/Girard/Byram to the PK than Makar.
I simply think the injury risk is too high for Makar. I get why the Avs think they need to play Makar on the PK, but they should be trying to keep Makar as healthy as possible.
Ararana
Registered User
lol oh shit I totally forgot about that condition. Oh wells, I would have traded Byram for 1 year of Kuemper if it guaranteed a cup win, so it's hard to get too upset in hindsight.
But yeah Sakic was cornered and he had to overpay. No way around it.
You jest... but not having Cam Lund in the system is something that people will pine about in 2-3 years.
When people claim the Avs won't trade for a rental, won't overpay, have to always have value, etc. etc... The Kuemper trade is the antithesis. They made pretty expensive trade when the Avs had a huge organizational hole. The value sucks on it, but it doesn't matter because the Avs won the Cup. That's all that really matters.
Oh no. No. “Not superb” is one thing. Even “bad” would have been another. But the Avs had THE WORST penalty kill in the NHL to start the season, the fact that they’re “merely” 21st shows you just how much they’ve had to claw and scrape just to get to a merely “bad” ranking.
So no Makar on the PK is just not an option right now. Even Toews appears to have lost a lot of his mojo on the PK and he used to be IMO their very best guy to have on the back end last year.
Take Makar off the PK and you run serious risk of not making the playoffs. It’s that simple. Something major has to change on the Avs defensive depth chart in order for 8 to be relieved of that duty.
dahrougem2
Registered User
It's just not true. Last season and in season's before, the Avs were getting great goaltending on the PK. IIRC Kuemper and Grubauer were posting phenomenal numbers on the PK but were worse at even strength. Georgiev is the reverse. He's been phenomenal at even strength but on the PK he's been quite bad.
How much is that on the Avs skaters? Who knows. But it's not like the Avs drastically altered the system or even the personnel killing penalties this season. The mainstays are there - for the most part barring injuries - but the goaltending hasn't been.
So no, Makar not killing isn't going to make our break our season.
I don't buy this at all. Avs give up about 3.3 opportunities per game this season (last year was. 2.9). So that is about ~170 times shorthanded for the rest of the season. Now Makar is a lot better than any other PKer on the Avs, but let's say he gives up 3 less goals per 60 than any other option. That's 9 goals over the rest of the season. Making the playoffs or not, will not be a 9 goal difference for this team. For a team like St Louis or Vancouver, yeah it could be. For the Avs it won't be.
What should be more of a focus is improving the offensive output of the team. On ice 5v5 GF /60 Makar is by far at the lowest production of his career. To the tune of 1.5 GF/60 less than his average. Some of that is the injuries and team not producing... some of it is asking too much of Makar and him not being able to impact the game at a higher level 5v5. Given the ~52 games left and half goal a game that equates to... 26 goals for here would make a crap ton more difference than him PKing.
I simply disagree. I don't buy for a second that he was that much drastically worse than he was at even strength.
And yes it absolutely is on the skaters. The PK was failing miserably at cutting off passing lanes, especially cross-ice passes, and they were even worse at challenging shooters (definitely an area where no Helm hurts bad). EJ Is so unbelievably bad that he knows he's too slow to get to loose pucks so he purposely draws in close toward the goal to try and block shots, but in doing so he opens passing and shooting lanes even bigger. Manson just looks kinda lost whenever he's out there. At least when Englund is out there he's fast enough to get to loose pucks and knock opposing players into the boards.
The biggest flaw of the PK under Bednar has been that it's way too reliant on the goalie to make big saves. A more aggressive kill would cut down on that, but they're more interested in a passive system (yes the new system, no matter how much they talk about being aggressive, is still much more passive than, say, Carolina's). If they could adopt a system that did more to push the opposition to the outside and was much more physical in the corners then I could see them finally taking Makar off of it. But so long as they have this system that requires defensemen to race to loose pucks along the boards in order to send them out, you need a Makar back there.
dahrougem2
Registered User
I mean don't the numbers during Grubauer's 20-21, Kuemper's 21-22 and Georgiev's current season show exactly what I'm saying? The former two being great on the PK and average at 5v5; Georgiev being below average on PK but well above average at 5v5.
That makes a world of difference.
Say what you will, don't tell me for a second they can afford to take Makar off there and give more minutes to EJ, or even Sammy. It's not plausible.
I will agree that the lack of offensive production, particularly on the power play, is a huge issue though. But that has just as much to do with the lack of finish up front as anything else. Everyone knows they cut off Makar's shooting lanes, they shut the whole unit down. Every time they have JTC and his popgun shot float to the MacKinnon/Rantanen spot high in the zone I just want to scream.
- Apr 25, 2006
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Avs were painted in the corner with 0 other option, literally. It was Kuemper or Francouz.You jest... but not having Cam Lund in the system is something that people will pine about in 2-3 years.
When people claim the Avs won't trade for a rental, won't overpay, have to always have value, etc. etc... The Kuemper trade is the antithesis. They made pretty expensive trade when the Avs had a huge organizational hole. The value sucks on it, but it doesn't matter because the Avs won the Cup. That's all that really matters.
That won't be the case for a 2C.
dahrougem2
Registered User
Goalies that have played at least 60 minutes shorthanded
Grubauer PK numbers in 2021:
1st in GSAA (59 total goalies)
55th in xGA
2nd in HDSV%
Kuemper PK numbers in 2022:
14th in GSAA (68 total goalies)
66th in xGA
24th in HDSV%
Georgiev PK numbers in 2023:
34th in GSAA (42 total goalies)
28th in xGA
26th in HDSV%
I think it's clear Georgiev's PK numbers are worse than Kuemper's were (and WAY worse than Grubauer's) this season. If anything I think based on the xGA the Avs might be doing a slightly better job limiting opportunities on the PK this season than they were with Grubauer/Kuemper.
Grubauer PK numbers in 2021:
1st in GSAA (59 total goalies)
55th in xGA
2nd in HDSV%
Kuemper PK numbers in 2022:
14th in GSAA (68 total goalies)
66th in xGA
24th in HDSV%
Georgiev PK numbers in 2023:
34th in GSAA (42 total goalies)
28th in xGA
26th in HDSV%
I think it's clear Georgiev's PK numbers are worse than Kuemper's were (and WAY worse than Grubauer's) this season. If anything I think based on the xGA the Avs might be doing a slightly better job limiting opportunities on the PK this season than they were with Grubauer/Kuemper.
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding here but if we're just looking at ye olde Sv% and GAA then no, it doesn't really paint the whole picture. I've said before that the Avs got away with a vastly inferior penalty kill simply because the goalie was able to bail them out, it wasn't until last season they finally admitted it sucked ass and completely overhauled their system and quit that stupid rotating forward setup that never worked. If we're looking at numbers I'd like to see how many high danger chances the PK was giving up last year as opposed to this year, and how many shots on average they give up when #8 is out there as opposed to not.
Believe me, if they could use Englund to shave off even just a half a minute per kill of Makar time, that would be a huge, huge improvement. I don't know if Bednar's willing to do that though. But if the alternative is EJ then f*** that. He's out there enough on the PK as is.
- Jan 18, 2016
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Sakic put himself in the situation where he was down to only Kuemper or Frankie. There were plenty of other options last year.
- Apr 25, 2006
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We don't know if Sakic was legit expecting Gru to accept 3M AAV or if he missed earlier on other UFA goalies.
There were plenty of options that summer (including George that the Avs investigated).
When it comes to a legit 2C on the market, we really only have 4 or 5 at the very most. Horvat, ROR, Toews, and maybe a couple of Hayes, Jenner, Domi, and Roslovic. I'd argue some are not 2C quality (Toews, Jenner, Domi, Roslovic). Some may not make it to market (ROR, Hayes, Jenner). Which those combos that overlap probably mean that maybe 2 or 3 quality 2Cs are available right now. Not really any different than what the goalie picture was then, especially if you rule out Horvat as unaffordable.
He missed on Andersen, He dragged the Grubauer thing too long and Andersen didn't want to wait any more after getting a good offer from Carolina. It might've turned out to be a good thing since Andersen couldn't stay healthy to save his life.
- Jan 18, 2016
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Well, he would've been the best option for sure since there was never a question of his ability, he just happened to be more rickety than Andersen and Kuemper put together when he was in Buffalo. The run of good health he has going this year is unreal. Guess the wholesome goalie hugs healed his body.
- Jan 18, 2016
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I mean is there a goalie that doesn’t have health issues? I feel like every goalie does bar Vasi.
Fair point but IIRC Ullmark was in, like, Pascal Leclaire territory, which is bad even for a goalie.
- Jan 18, 2016
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I don’t disagree, Ullmark certainly has/had his issues but its not like it was drastically worse than Kuempers iirc.
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