2022-2023 Around The League

[redacted]

Button just had Michkov listed at 5th overall on his draft board. Has the kid fallen or is this just Button with a hot take?

Bit of both… also a sign of how good the top of 23 is with a bit of Russia thrown in.

 

[ANewHope]

I’d say aging had a huge part of it, but it is never one thing. Some key players (Brown, Gaborik, Richards, Reghr, Stoll) couldn’t maintain their levels of play past their peaks and any regression from the top guys couldn’t make up for it. They also couldn’t continue to pay for depth once the big contracts hit for Kopi and Doughty.

Reghr barely played during the last cup run. Richards was only 28 and only put up 40ish points that regular season before the cup. He was always a guy that was better come playoff time for the Kings. Stoll was a depth piece and it's not like he completely fell off a cliff the next season.

The Kings team that missed the playoffs a year after the cup had a 27 year old Kopitar, Carter still playing great, Doughty in his prime at 25 and healthy, a 25 year old Muzzin, a 22 year old Toffoli, Voynov/Martinez were both in there primes. Quick was still elite. Gaborik was still almost a 50 point player. Richards/Brown were really the only guys that got hit hard by aging and honestly even than .. Brown sucked in the regular season the year they won the cup, and he sucked the year after it. He was another guy similar to Richards who was just better in the playoffs when he gave more effort.

Kings were just never really a great regular season team.

 

[Chiarelli]

Kings were lazy/cocky and thought they could coast through the regular season and pull up their socks come playoffs. It worked twice and it burnt them more than once as well.

 

[ANewHope]

Kings were lazy/cocky and thought they could coast through the regular season and pull up their socks come playoffs. It worked twice and it burnt them more than once as well.

Yeah I wanna say the Kings still had top 5 preseason odds to win the cup the year after winning there last one. It's not like they got destroyed by the cap/aging right after winning. That's just re-writing history. They still had a good team just never were great in the regular season and Brown/Richards were always super lazy in the regular season.

I also think the Kings are a great example of a team/individual players that get a massive boost from winning multiple cups. They were built for the playoffs but they won as an 8th seed and got hot at the right time for the first cup. The second cup was just hilarious winning 3 game 7's. The Sharks choked big time. The Hawks outplayed them. That entire era of the Kings could be entirely different.

 

[Chiarelli]

I think a lot of that core just had questionable work ethic including Doughty, Carter, Richards, Brown, and Gaborik. All stupid talented tho

 

[redacted]

Reghr barely played during the last cup run. Richards was only 28 and only put up 40ish points that regular season before the cup. He was always a guy that was better come playoff time for the Kings. Stoll was a depth piece and it's not like he completely fell off a cliff the next season.

The Kings team that missed the playoffs a year after the cup had a 27 year old Kopitar, Carter still playing great, Doughty in his prime at 25 and healthy, a 25 year old Muzzin, a 22 year old Toffoli, Voynov/Martinez were both in there primes. Quick was still elite. Gaborik was still almost a 50 point player. Richards/Brown were really the only guys that got hit hard by aging and honestly even than .. Brown sucked in the regular season the year they won the cup, and he sucked the year after it. He was another guy similar to Richards who was just better in the playoffs when he gave more effort.

Kings were just never really a great regular season team.

They weren’t a great regular season team, but even if gene they did get in the playoffs after they did nothing.

Aging and contracts had a lot to do with it. Aging curves can hit early as in the cases do Richards and Brown. To think age and regression had nothing to do with it is ignoring reality.

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

 

[ANewHope]

Aging and contracts had a lot to do with it. Aging curves can hit early as in the cases do Richards and Brown. To think age and regression had nothing to do with it is ignoring reality.

What? Your the one ignoring reality? I literally just posted all the ages/production from the Kings team that missed the playoffs directly after winning the cup. Age/contracts for the extended window? Sure. The season directly after winning the cup they were one of the favorites to win the cup, had tons of core pieces still in there prime and producing, and still missed the playoffs. Even Justin Williams. He produced exactly the same the very next season.

Dustin Brown had 27 points in the regular season the year they won the last cup, and 27 points in the regular season they year after. Richards had 41 points in the regular season the year they won the cup and 16 in 53 the next season. He would be the only example of a guy hitting a wall .. but he and Brown were always lazy in the regular season with the Kings.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Yup. Benn f***ed around with the wrong one and found out.

 

[redacted]

What? Your the one ignoring reality? I literally just posted all the ages/production from the Kings team that missed the playoffs directly after winning the cup. Age/contracts for the extended window? Sure. The season directly after winning the cup they were one of the favorites to win the cup, had tons of core pieces still in there prime and producing, and still missed the playoffs. Even Justin Williams. He produced exactly the same the very next season.

Dustin Brown had 27 points in the regular season the year they won the last cup, and 27 points in the regular season they year after. Richards had 41 points in the regular season the year they won the cup and 16 in 53 the next season. He would be the only example of a guy hitting a wall .. but he and Brown were always lazy in the regular season with the Kings.

It is about more than production it is about roles too. And about more than one hiccup year, the following years it snowballed.

The year after the cup:

Richards went from second line center to barely a 4th liner… on his path of regression. He had been regressing for a couple years. One of the guys on the early side of the curve.

Still went from a good 3C to a 4th line level guy who had to play up.

Mitchell was a solid 4 who had to be let go because of his contract. Leaving a void.

Regehr continued to regress on what made him good 1v1 defense. Could take up the slack.

Voynov had his domestic abuse suspension start.

The next offseason had further regression of Brown. Gaborik fell off the cliff. Richards was gone. Williams left because of contract reasons. King has his style of play start to add up and was on his path to 4th liner.

That 2016 offseason, Kopitar’s big contract started killing their cap space.

In a period of 2 years they had two middle 6 centers regress out of any impact role. Lost a top 4 defenseman (who was older) leave due to a contract they couldn’t afford. Two top 6 wing regress out of value. Another (older) top 6 wing leave due to contract they couldn’t afford. A third line have injuries mount up. Then a young top 4D get suspended out of the league.

That’s all due to age and contracts. There were other factors, but major roles there. By the time the depth was killed, they tried to hold on and supplement while they could for a couple seasons before deciding this retool path of the last ~4 years.

One you lose RFA value and age regression starts… it gets very tough, very quickly.

 

[ANewHope]

It is about more than production it is about roles too. And about more than one hiccup year, the following years it snowballed.

Yeah that was the whole thing. Obviously when you start looking 2-4 years down the line age/contracts will play a role and the core will change. The Kings missed the playoffs directly after winning the cup. They came into the season as one of the favorites. They had most of there core producing/in there primes but they were just never a great regular season team. It's just re-writing history and passing opinion off as fact to pretend like the season after winning the cup was destroyed by aging/contracts.

Contracts/age weren't the reason the Kings missed the playoffs after winning a cup. That's just a reality. Zero argument for me that those things came into play down the line. That goes without saying that 3 years later the Kings got hit by those things.

 

[redacted]

Yeah that was the whole thing. Obviously when you start looking 2-4 years down the line age/contracts will play a role and the core will change. The Kings missed the playoffs directly after winning the cup. They came into the season as one of the favorites. They had most of there core producing/in there primes but they were just never a great regular season team. It's just re-writing history and passing opinion off as fact to pretend like the season after winning the cup was destroyed by aging/contracts.

Contracts/age weren't the reason the Kings missed the playoffs after winning a cup. That's just a reality. Zero argument for me that those things came into play down the line. That goes without saying that 3 years later the Kings got hit by those things.

It happened the direct season after too… Richards, Stoll, and Mitchell. Plus the Voynov situation. You can’t say that all didn’t play a role

 

[Avs_19]

Button just had Michkov listed at 5th overall on his draft board. Has the kid fallen or is this just Button with a hot take?

Putting anyone in the same sentence as the good Canadian boy Bedard was always cute. There's levels to this.

 

[ANewHope]

It happened the direct season after too… Richards, Stoll, and Mitchell. Plus the Voynov situation. You can’t say that all didn’t play a role

Kings put up 100 points in the cup year, 95 the next year, and 102 the year after which was the high for them for that core. I just don't see how you can legitimately argue that the Kings got destroyed by aging/contracts the year after they won the cup. Richards is really the only guy that fell off big time and even than he was pretty lazy the year prior. Years after that? Completely agree .. but the year after the cup the Kings just didn't take the regular season seriously enough.

Also not to go back to previous arguments but kinda funny your mentioning Stoll so much with the Kings but Hainsey/Cullen/Kunitz weren't allowed to be counted when the Penguins won with that core lol

 

[redacted]

Kings put up 100 points in the cup year, 95 the next year, and 102 the year after which was the high for them for that core. I just don't see how you can legitimately argue that the Kings got destroyed by aging/contracts the year after they won the cup. Richards is really the only guy that fell off big time and even than he was pretty lazy the year prior. Years after that? Completely agree .. but the year after the cup the Kings just didn't take the regular season seriously enough.

Also not to go back to previous arguments but kinda funny your mentioning Stoll so much with the Kings but Hainsey/Cullen/Kunitz weren't allowed to be counted when the Penguins won with that core lol

Stoll wasn’t a core player (nor was Mitchell)… he was a good 3C. They lost a 2 and 3C in a single offseason.

They lost core pieces and key pieces yearly. Sometimes due to regression and out of the league shortly, sometimes contracts. They also had guys who couldn’t continue the roles they were playing in as they regressed.

Guys like Stoll, Compher, Gaborik, Burkie, and on are not core pieces… they do play roles and you need that depth to win cups. Not having the ability to have that depth hurts chances at winning Cups. Just like losing Gourde, Coleman and Goodrow hurt Tampa trying to three peat, despite none of them being core guys.

 

[ANewHope]

Guys like Stoll, Compher, Gaborik, Burkie, and on are not core pieces… they do play roles and you need that depth to win cups. Not having the ability to have that depth hurts chances at winning Cups. Just like losing Gourde, Coleman and Goodrow hurt Tampa trying to three peat, despite none of them being core guys.

Agreed. I don't think any of them are core players. When the team wins IMO there ages should count even if there not core pieces. Especially when they out perform core pieces.

To each there own but IMO the Kings just disappointed after winning the cup. They were never a great regular season team but still. The Kings team after winning the cup still had a ton of core pieces in there prime, older guys like Williams playing well, but they just couldn't get in. Brown's laziness in the regular season vs the effort he gave in the playoffs playing a big role. It's letting them off the hook big time to pretend like the season directly after the cup it was aging/contracts that killed them which is evident by them putting up 102 points the very next season.

 

[redacted]

Agreed. I don't think any of them are core players. When the team wins IMO there ages should count even if there not core pieces. Especially when they out perform core pieces.

To each there own but IMO the Kings just disappointed after winning the cup. They were never a great regular season team but still. The Kings team after winning the cup still had a ton of core pieces in there prime, older guys like Williams playing well, but they just couldn't get in. Brown's laziness in the regular season vs the effort he gave in the playoffs playing a big role. It's letting them off the hook big time to pretend like the season directly after the cup it was aging/contracts that killed them which is evident by them putting up 102 points the very next season.

you don’t build around and lock into depth players. Or at least you shouldn’t. That’s a major difference with ages. You can take fliers on guys still playing well or just have a burst. But you don’t keep them.

Regular seasons vary a lot and in reality don’t matter much. Avs put up huge points in 13-14… didn’t matter. Same with Minny last year. Many bad teams have put up 102 points in a season… many good team failed to reach 100. Adding to that, playoff hockey exposes weakness in rosters that regular season allows to be covered up. We see that every year.

 

[redacted]

After the drama at the beginning of the season… Toronto sits 3rd in the east

 

[ANewHope]

you don’t build around and lock into depth players. Or at least you shouldn’t. That’s a major difference with ages. You can take fliers on guys still playing well or just have a burst. But you don’t keep them.

Regular seasons vary a lot and in reality don’t matter much. Avs put up huge points in 13-14… didn’t matter. Same with Minny last year. Many bad teams have put up 102 points in a season… many good team failed to reach 100. Adding to that, playoff hockey exposes weakness in rosters that regular season allows to be covered up. We see that every year.

I don't disagree but when you actually win the cup if a 32 year old non core player outperforms a core player who's 23 that's more important in terms of actually winning. When you look back that's what matters.

Yeah I'm not disputing any of that. To me it's pretty simple. Kings won a cup, came into the season one of the favorites, still had the most important pieces right in there prime and lots of other core pieces playing well. That's just a disappointment to me. I'll just leave it at that. If Colorado misses the playoffs this year it would be similar .. even with losing Kadri/Bura which IMO is far worse than what happened to the Kings.

 

[redacted]

I don't disagree but when you actually win the cup if a 32 year old non core player outperforms a core player who's 23 that's more important in terms of actually winning. When you look back that's what matters.

Yeah I'm not disputing any of that. To me it's pretty simple. Kings won a cup, came into the season one of the favorites, still had the most important pieces right in there prime and lots of other core pieces playing well. That's just a disappointment to me. I'll just leave it at that. If Colorado misses the playoffs this year it would be similar .. even with losing Kadri/Bura which IMO is far worse than what happened to the Kings.

I’d say the losses the Kings had would be akin to Kadri, Compher, EJ/Manson (might be an improvement here), and Byram while keeping Burkie. I’d say that is worse personally, but Burkie was a solid piece to the team.

 

[dahrougem2]

Isn't Michkov signed with a KHL team until 2026? That could scare some GMs away if they're looking for an immediate impact player.

 

[The Kingslayer]

After the drama at the beginning of the season… Toronto sits 3rd in the east

They had so many turnovers and allowed so many breakaways today....win it 3-1 lol

 

[Balthazar]

Sens should just bite the bullet at this point and collect another potential franchise player in the top 5 of a legendary draft

 

[redacted]

They had so many turnovers and allowed so many breakaways today....win it 3-1 lol

I think their defense as currently constructed and structure isn’t great. They are simply talented enough to overcome. Just interesting that they have one of the best records in the league despite their start.

 

[ANewHope]

I’d say the losses the Kings had would be akin to Kadri, Compher, EJ/Manson (might be an improvement here), and Byram while keeping Burkie. I’d say that is worse personally, but Burkie was a solid piece to the team.

I don't think Byram really compares to anybody. He was hurt most of last year and is hurt again but was great in the playoffs. Voynov was a big loss for the Kings .. but your leaving out how Muzzin broke out as a 25 year old the next season. Kings didn't lose anybody close to Kadri due to contracts/aging. I'd also argue guys like Toffoli stepping up, while Williams/Brown/Gaborik playing at similar levels plays a big factor. McNabb was also a really good addition.

Kings were still pretty good. Just disappointed.