2022-2023 Around the League Part Deux

[katfude]

There are those who believe that the LGBT community are wrong. Should the LGBT community be punished because many people feel that way? F*** no.

We should be moving towards a society where people can live by their own moral code so long as it doesn't hurt or impact others. Not whatever this bullshit is where you're either with us or against us.

Well you see that's the problem is the LGBT community IS a marginalized community who faces harassment, violence and legislation that restricts their freedom, so they are bring punished. I don't think Provorov is in the same boat since it's people on Twitter calling for him to lose his job.

I love your idea of a society where everyone can do their own thing, but we ain't there.

 

[katfude]

Again, whose freedom of speech are we talking about here. Prov was being ordered to wear somebody else's freedom of speech, not his own.

I had absolutely no problems with Colin K for the same reasoning.

Right, but again you have to look at the issue being protested. "Please stop killing people of color" versus "I am LGBTQ and I deserve the right to exist in this space"

Even if your religion says homosexuality is wrong, that's no excuse at all to disagree with that message. Hockey is for everyone.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

There are those who believe that the LGBT community are wrong. Should the LGBT community be punished because many people feel that way? F*** no.

We should be moving towards a society where people can live by their own moral code so long as it doesn't hurt or impact others. Not whatever this bullshit is where you're either with us or against us.

And therein lies the entire problem around Provorovs actions.

Whether its driven by some bullshit Religious belief or not... His "beliefs" actively hurt the LGBTQ community, his actions have a profound negative impact on the LGBTQ community.

 

[El Travo]

Well you see that's the problem is the LGBT community IS a marginalized community who faces harassment, violence and legislation that restricts their freedom, so they are bring punished. I don't think Provorov is in the same boat since it's people on Twitter calling for him to lose his job.

I love your idea of a society where everyone can do their own thing, but we ain't there.

How do you expect to get there by punishing those who actually just want to live by their own morality?

He didn't want to wear the rainbow jersey due to his personal beliefs. Fine. The rest of the team did and they all played a game together afterwards. That's called living with and accepting those with differing opinions/lifestyles. That's how you move forward as a society.

 

[katfude]

How do you expect to get there by punishing those who actually just want to live by their own morality?

He didn't want to wear the rainbow jersey due to his personal beliefs. Fine. The rest of the team did and they all played a game together afterwards. That's called living with and accepting those with differing opinions/lifestyles. That's how you move forward as a society.

The paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

 

[El Travo]

The paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

And what is the definition of tolerance?: Showing willingness to allow the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.

This is exactly what Provorov is doing. He's not going out there and burning the jersey. He's just not participating.

 

[katfude]

Right. That's why there's a paradox. Intolerance cannot be tolerated.

To further specify: racism used to be justified by religion all the time. That was no longer tolerated.

 

[El Travo]

Right. That's why there's a paradox. Intolerance cannot be tolerated.

To further specify: racism used to be justified by religion all the time. That was no longer tolerated.

Is Provorov claiming that the LGBT community shouldn't be allowed to participate in society?

 

[RECKLESS]

It's annoying, we have a small streak going but all the playoff teams or bubble teams keep winning. It will be complicated to make the playoffs..

We're gonna have alooootta must-wins down the stretch if we are gonna make it.

 

[GQS]

This whole Provorov thing reminds me of this:



Damn Seinfeld was such a great show!

 

[katfude]

Is Provorov claiming that the LGBT community shouldn't be allowed to participate in society?

He doesn't CLAIM that, but if he truly respects everyone, why not wear it? Why not say "I respect your right to exist." Instead, he chose to not wear it. What religious belief is violated by showing support for a marginalized group?

 

[The Merchant]

 

[redacted]

Wake up to see this thread has blown up.

I respect Provorov's right to protest the action. I completely disagree with his stance and beliefs, but there should be nothing wrong with him taking a (non-violent) stance in the US anyways.

I wouldn't have played him personally... not because of the beliefs or protest in and of themselves, but he's an employee that wasn't following through on a basic, required duty. A warm up is a part of getting ready for the game and getting a feel for the ice, puck, and game, not participating because your employer is celebrating something (and realistically this is a marketing event which players are 100% required to partake in... companies, brands, etc are not your friend they are selling you something) is in violation of his contract.

 

[RECKLESS]

Imagine our 4th was some bust.

 

[redacted]

It is kinda crazy how underrated his season is around here. 5v5 he's having as good, arguably better season than McDavid. At 21, we're looking at a guy that is staring at accomplishments only McDavid, Crosby, and Ovi have accomplished since 1996.

 

[dahrougem2]

Wake up to see this thread has blown up.

I respect Provorov's right to protest the action. I completely disagree with his stance and beliefs, but there should be nothing wrong with him taking a (non-violent) stance in the US anyways.

I wouldn't have played him personally... not because of the beliefs or protest in and of themselves, but he's an employee that wasn't following through on a basic, required duty. A warm up is a part of getting ready for the game and getting a feel for the ice, puck, and game, not participating because your employer is celebrating something (and realistically this is a marketing event which players are 100% required to partake in... companies, brands, etc are not your friend they are selling you something) is in violation of his contract.

It can't possibly be a violation of his contract if what the team is celebrating completely goes against his religious beliefs.

Not saying this will ever get there but if it was in a court of law, I have no doubt Provorov would be able to win his case against the Flyers for breach of contract.

 

[redacted]

It can't possibly be a violation of his contract if what the team is celebrating completely goes against his religious beliefs.

Not saying this will ever get there but if it was in a court of law, I have no doubt Provorov would be able to win his case against the Flyers for breach of contract.

Yeah it can be... plenty of contracts out there are in violation of specific beliefs especially in a union setting where a CBA covers the relationship. Players are simply required to do many things outside playing on the ice. A simple example, that shouldn't cause controversy, is the visits to children's hospitals. They are sweet stories and I'm sure almost every player would do that to cheer up kids having a rough time... but players are required to put in this time. It is their job to do these things in the community.

Now on the court cases, the US Supreme Court has typically stayed out of most union sort of labor stuff over the last ~40 years. With the current make up that may change, but there has not been a compelling case for them to take up to break up this practice. It may get there someday, but not currently.

 

[Gumballhead]

I mean, nothing happened to Provorov at all, other than ridicule. His coach stood up for him. I'm not sure how his teammates feel, but I'm sure the ones that care about this cause are probably pissed that he decided to do this.

I also cynically wonder if this even happens if he was not in an awkward team situation -- his name is constantly mentioned as a player who Philly would love to ship out. Maybe he figured this could grease the wheels a bit. It's impossible for us to know how religious he actually is, so we just have to take his word and believe this was sufficiently important to him. I lean towards the theory that he's just not very wise.

 

[redacted]

I mean, nothing happened to Provorov at all, other than ridicule. His coach stood up for him. I'm not sure how his teammates feel, but I'm sure the ones that care about this cause are probably pissed that he decided to do this.

I also cynically wonder if this even happens if he was not in an awkward team situation -- his name is constantly mentioned as a player who Philly would love to ship out. Maybe he figured this could grease the wheels a bit. It's impossible for us to know how religious he actually is, so we just have to take his word and believe this was sufficiently important to him. I lean towards the theory that he's just not very wise.

It is too early to say nothing at all happened to Provorov. The first day Kaep kneeled, he didn’t have consequences besides scorn… but over time he got blackballed out of the league. Now I don’t think that will happen here as despite outward appearances, the NHL as a whole is a very conservative league, more so than most.

Homosexuality exists in nature (I have an amusing story about my bulldog when the mood lightens up) and has existed throughout recorded history. Odds are very high it is not a choice for the vast majority.

 

[Ararana]

Good on LeBrun using this situation to get in his brownie points with the woke mob for another few weeks. That's how the true pros do it.

Wake up to see this thread has blown up.

I respect Provorov's right to protest the action. I completely disagree with his stance and beliefs, but there should be nothing wrong with him taking a (non-violent) stance in the US anyways.

I wouldn't have played him personally... not because of the beliefs or protest in and of themselves, but he's an employee that wasn't following through on a basic, required duty. A warm up is a part of getting ready for the game and getting a feel for the ice, puck, and game, not participating because your employer is celebrating something (and realistically this is a marketing event which players are 100% required to partake in... companies, brands, etc are not your friend they are selling you something) is in violation of his contract.

We're not allowed to have takes on these boards this reasonable. I agree with you 100%.

 

[ABasin]

Blows my mind but it is the world we live in today. Comply or be ostracized and villainized.

The crazies on Twitter out in full force demanding the Flyers terminate his contract.

Putting aside the player's requirements under his contract, I generally agree that the player should be able to do what he wants here. Personally, I would have taken the ice, but I don't have a problem that this player didn't, and were you and I on the same team, I wouldn't have any issue if you made a different choice.

I see two sides to this thing - one good, one concerning.

For years now, there has been a movement towards acceptance of the LGBTQ community. Which has been a great movement, IMO. Religious beliefs don't have to equate to treating others disrespectfully (which Provorov didn't), and no one should be ostracized for who they are (I disagree with your assertion that some people aren't born gay).

But what does 'acceptance' mean here? I think this is where things get a bit muddy. In my opinion, that means offering courtesy and respect. That's it. You live your life, I'll live mine.

However, on the other side, that push for acceptance has now (quite quickly) gone from "You must respect it", to "You must participate in it". And then to "You must celebrate it". Do all three, or otherwise you're a bigot. And I don't agree with this at all. Not the participation/celebration requirement, nor the threat that got appended to the end. The pendulum has swung too far.

I believe that people should offer others respect and courtesy, regardless of how they live their lives (not counting obvious stuff like violence, etc). However, no one must participate in, and celebrate, others' lives and/or choices. That doesn't make them bigots or full of hate. Just not what they want to do. It could be due to Provorov's religion, or it could be due to the fact that he'd rather be spending his time in his kitchen, cooking a bundt cake.

We should expect courtesy from everyone. We should not be forcing/compelling anyone to participate in and celebrate others' lives or choices, with a nasty social threat hanging over their heads. That's just wrong.

Now, what were Provorov's requirements as a member of that team....?

 

[katfude]

However, on the other side, that push for acceptance has now (quite quickly) gone from "You must respect it", to "You must participate in it". And then to "You must celebrate it". Do all three, or otherwise you're a bigot. And I don't agree with this at all. Not the participation/celebration requirement, nor the threat that got appended to the end. The pendulum has swung too far.

They didn't try to make him skate out there and french kiss a teammate. The jersey is simply saying, "We see you, we thank you for your support and hockey is for everyone"

If you make it more out to be any more than that, that's on you.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Of all the teams that are 'tanking", Arizona is the only team with a winning home record?

Is it possible that visiting players being underwhelmed by the venue and resentment for playing in a joke of an arena are defaulting to a home ice advantage for Arizona?

 

[Avs_19]

Oh come on. He was asked to do the bare minimum by his employer.

“Hey, please wear this thing for 15 mins along with 20 of your teammates, it’ll make people happy, and then we’ll auction it off to raise money and yours will probably go for a good amount since you’re one of the better players on our crappy team.”

“Nope”

 

[ABasin]

They didn't try to make him skate out there and french kiss a teammate. The jersey is simply saying, "We see you, we thank you for your support and hockey is for everyone"

If you make it more out to be any more than that, that's on you.

But it is more than that. Far, far more. Hence, the current backlash.

As I said, I would have taken the ice. But I don't believe others should be forced to, under threat.

Unless, of course, he was contractually obligated to do so. If it's in your contract, it's in your contract. Hench outlined a number of such non-hockey requirements.