Blue Jays GDT: 2021 v10 | Next: Mon, Sept 6| @ NYY | 1:00pm ET/10:00am PT | Ryu vs Taillon

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That is the whole point if guys just started to shoot the ball past the shift
Oh yeah "just shoot the ball past the shift". Just an easy thing to do when every team has 5 relievers throwing 98 with movement.

Teams analytics department won't allow guys cause the numbers and data/spreadsheet say so. Guess what you change your hitting approach and so do the numbers the analytical guys use to make up their philosophy. which team will have the balls to change their hitting approach to force teams to move away from the shift. The 1st team that does it and is successful the rest of the league will follow.
Analytics teams are not telling players to avoid hitting away from the shift. They are telling their front office that you are better off ignoring it and trying to hit for power instead of going out of your way to acquire slap singles hitters that can hit against the shift or teaching your lefty slugger to hit slap singles the other way instead of maximizing his power hitting.

Hitting against the shift or to the opposite field is a good thing and any analytics department would say so, it's just not valuable enough that it's worth prioritizing over other skills. If there was a lefty slugger that could routinely hit singles down the 3B line against the shift teams would be happy to let him do it, it's just a rare skillset and it's not worth prioritizing a player's ability to hit against the shift over the ability to hit and hit for power in all situations.

If you stopped teams from shifting by hitting the ball past their shifts your batting averages would climb as you wouldn't be hitting into the shift and lose base hits where they used to be bases hits.

Problem is no one has the balls to change that approach
Maybe, but you're also hitting slap singles where there used to be doubles and home runs. Also depends on who's at the plate, if you teach one lefty slugger to hit slap singles that doesn't help you for the other 8 spots in the lineup.
 
That game took more out of me than most... still can't believe we just lost that... Our extra inning record of 2-9 has to be the worst in the major leagues. We tend to give up big innings and we never have big innings.... 2 and 9...
 
Can we fire Montoyo now? Or will we wait until we lose 3 of 4 to the White Sox?

It's not even about Charlie anymore. This team needs a collective wake up, pull your heads out of your ***es moment.
 
Not clutch on the mound, not clutch at bat, not clutch in the field...yowza.

Something funny is going on. They're really down at the moment. Either losing Springer hit them harder than we realize or something else is happening in the clubhouse.
 
The shift thing always kind of odd for me because the idea that old players would've just beat the shift by hitting it the other way or whatever is a massively presumptuous bit of logic.

Because honestly, in the days before shifts, how many balls got through holes on the infield that existed because there was no shift? The shift exists because a hitter displays a batted ball profile that favors certain areas of the field and adjusts the defence to cover it. Say you're a lefty hitter with extreme opposite field tendencies. So most of the time you go up and hit low liners and ground balls through the left side of the infield. In fact let's assume that over the course of 100 at bats (for the sake of simplicity he never walks, gets HBP, hits a sacrifice, or strikes out. Every at bat ends with a ball in play) he does the following:

  • 5 balls are hit for HRs to any part of the field
  • 5 balls are hit into the right side of the infield, roughly where a standard alignment 2B would be playing
  • 30 balls are hit to the high left side of the infield, roughly where a standard alignment SS would be playing
  • 40 balls are hit to the mid left side of the infield in the standard gap between the shortstop and a 3rd baseman playing relatively close to the line
  • 20 balls are lofted over the infield D and into the outfield, landing in play variously between shallow OF choppers and less frequent wall-banger doubles

In today's game the defence knows this and shifts, potentially pushing the 2B to the left side of 2nd to roughly the default SS position and sliding the SS down towards 3rd to make a 3-man wall between 2nd and 3rd to vacuum up those balls that are hit in that direction. Let's take our batted ball profile above and see what happens. Assume the outfield makes no dramatic attempts at shifting because this is not a power hitter and balls getting into the OF are a bit more random and luck-based than approach based.
  • The HRs still count. Duh. So that's 5 hits
  • The 20 balls into the outfield are still hits.
  • The 5 balls that are hit to the right side of the OF go through the hole created by the shift. Hits.
  • All 30 of the high left side infield balls are going to be snagged by our shifting 2B. They're outs
  • All 40 of the balls that are in the classic defensive gap are going to be snagged by the shifting SS. They're outs too
So all told our fake extreme case hitter comes up with 30 hits in his 100 at bats and hits .300

Yes, I'm aware that's good in a vacuum, but that's not what the point is here. The point is this:

Now let's assume that he's playing 30 years ago against as standard defence that doesn't shift.
  • The 5 HRs are still hits
  • The 20 OF balls are still hits
  • The 5 balls that went through the right side of the infield above would now be bang at the 2B. Out
  • The 30 balls to the high left IF are now at the non-shifting SS. out
  • The 40 balls that go through the wide side of the IF on the left now find a hole because the SS is high and the 3B is playing near the line. Hits.
Now our fake hitter racks up 65 hits in his 100 at bast. He hits .650 and is unarguably the greatest contact hitter in baseball history.

But what changed? Did his approach change? Did he go up there and find places he could put the ball in one instances that he couldn't in the other and adjust?

No. The defence is the only thing that changed. And it makes difference between him being labeled as a smart hitter who shrewdly "hit it where they ain't" and one that just pounded balls into the shift like an idiot while fans just yelled "just pull the ball through the hole!"

how much of that is what pre-shift baseball was like? Not to the extent of the above thought experiment, obviously. But how many hitters who came up and had careers out of slap-hitting balls just over or through the infield were consistent in where they hit the holes and were more or less "granted" those hits by virtue of the defence being unwilling to be moved around to compensate? How many of them would've been destroyed by modern shifting defensive alignments that knew what they were doing and put a stop to it? Yes, the top, top, top guys would've found a way. Your Ted Williams and Tony Gwynns and Ichiros and the like would've figure it out and beat the system. But they're also the elite level savants of that approach. How much would the average player have been able to make those same adjustments? I'd argue not a lot given how many batters will tell you that hitting is hard. Directing the ball where you want is hard. "oh just poke it through the hole" is easier said than done. especially in the big leagues facing down flamethrowing relief specialists and guys with vicious sliders. It's not the same as saying "but I learned this in little league and did just fine through playing up to mid-tier competitiveness in high school" because in those situations the advantage is massively in the favor of the batter.

has the league BABIP on hits that go through the infield changed over the last 10, 20, 30, 50, 80 years? How much of that comes down to changes in player defensive range/prowess?

These are important things to address and I think that it makes the question of just how easy it is to beat the shift a valid one that needs to be examined before we throw our hands up and complain that the game sucks now because players are dumb and not trying or are being ruined by coaches who are slaves to spreadsheet nerds who didn't play the game or some nonsense. It's a complex issue that deserves to be treated with deference to its complexity.
 
The shift thing always kind of odd for me because the idea that old players would've just beat the shift by hitting it the other way or whatever is a massively presumptuous bit of logic.

Because honestly, in the days before shifts, how many balls got through holes on the infield that existed because there was no shift? The shift exists because a hitter displays a batted ball profile that favors certain areas of the field and adjusts the defence to cover it. Say you're a lefty hitter with extreme opposite field tendencies. So most of the time you go up and hit low liners and ground balls through the left side of the infield. In fact let's assume that over the course of 100 at bats (for the sake of simplicity he never walks, gets HBP, hits a sacrifice, or strikes out. Every at bat ends with a ball in play) he does the following:

  • 5 balls are hit for HRs to any part of the field
  • 5 balls are hit into the right side of the infield, roughly where a standard alignment 2B would be playing
  • 30 balls are hit to the high left side of the infield, roughly where a standard alignment SS would be playing
  • 40 balls are hit to the mid left side of the infield in the standard gap between the shortstop and a 3rd baseman playing relatively close to the line
  • 20 balls are lofted over the infield D and into the outfield, landing in play variously between shallow OF choppers and less frequent wall-banger doubles

In today's game the defence knows this and shifts, potentially pushing the 2B to the left side of 2nd to roughly the default SS position and sliding the SS down towards 3rd to make a 3-man wall between 2nd and 3rd to vacuum up those balls that are hit in that direction. Let's take our batted ball profile above and see what happens. Assume the outfield makes no dramatic attempts at shifting because this is not a power hitter and balls getting into the OF are a bit more random and luck-based than approach based.
  • The HRs still count. Duh. So that's 5 hits
  • The 20 balls into the outfield are still hits.
  • The 5 balls that are hit to the right side of the OF go through the hole created by the shift. Hits.
  • All 30 of the high left side infield balls are going to be snagged by our shifting 2B. They're outs
  • All 40 of the balls that are in the classic defensive gap are going to be snagged by the shifting SS. They're outs too
So all told our fake extreme case hitter comes up with 30 hits in his 100 at bats and hits .300

Yes, I'm aware that's good in a vacuum, but that's not what the point is here. The point is this:

Now let's assume that he's playing 30 years ago against as standard defence that doesn't shift.
  • The 5 HRs are still hits
  • The 20 OF balls are still hits
  • The 5 balls that went through the right side of the infield above would now be bang at the 2B. Out
  • The 30 balls to the high left IF are now at the non-shifting SS. out
  • The 40 balls that go through the wide side of the IF on the left now find a hole because the SS is high and the 3B is playing near the line. Hits.
Now our fake hitter racks up 65 hits in his 100 at bast. He hits .650 and is unarguably the greatest contact hitter in baseball history.

But what changed? Did his approach change? Did he go up there and find places he could put the ball in one instances that he couldn't in the other and adjust?

No. The defence is the only thing that changed. And it makes difference between him being labeled as a smart hitter who shrewdly "hit it where they ain't" and one that just pounded balls into the shift like an idiot while fans just yelled "just pull the ball through the hole!"

how much of that is what pre-shift baseball was like? Not to the extent of the above thought experiment, obviously. But how many hitters who came up and had careers out of slap-hitting balls just over or through the infield were consistent in where they hit the holes and were more or less "granted" those hits by virtue of the defence being unwilling to be moved around to compensate? How many of them would've been destroyed by modern shifting defensive alignments that knew what they were doing and put a stop to it? Yes, the top, top, top guys would've found a way. Your Ted Williams and Tony Gwynns and Ichiros and the like would've figure it out and beat the system. But they're also the elite level savants of that approach. How much would the average player have been able to make those same adjustments? I'd argue not a lot given how many batters will tell you that hitting is hard. Directing the ball where you want is hard. "oh just poke it through the hole" is easier said than done. especially in the big leagues facing down flamethrowing relief specialists and guys with vicious sliders. It's not the same as saying "but I learned this in little league and did just fine through playing up to mid-tier competitiveness in high school" because in those situations the advantage is massively in the favor of the batter.

has the league BABIP on hits that go through the infield changed over the last 10, 20, 30, 50, 80 years? How much of that comes down to changes in player defensive range/prowess?

These are important things to address and I think that it makes the question of just how easy it is to beat the shift a valid one that needs to be examined before we throw our hands up and complain that the game sucks now because players are dumb and not trying or are being ruined by coaches who are slaves to spreadsheet nerds who didn't play the game or some nonsense. It's a complex issue that deserves to be treated with deference to its complexity.

My complaint is players are not trained to situational hit. It's now launching angle as the math says homers are great and K's are ok, not taboo like they were in the 80's and '90s

years ago guys would be wasting pitches with 2 strikes against them just fouling it off hoping the pitcher makes a mistake. Now down 2 strikes they are still swinging for the fence as the K is no longer taboo.

Like you said teams move to certain spots on the field to take away a hitter spray chart. So how come the hitter can't change their spray chart. Look at today's game. Gurriel in extra innings took the ball the other way thru the gaping hold and move Santiago from 1st to 3rd. The math says he was probably better off to swing for the fence to score Santigo vs just moving him 1st to 3rd. Gurriel starts to pick that gaping hole at 2nd especially on balls outside he eventually will have changed his spray chart and teams will move the 2b back to his normal position which opens up the middle of the field.

I think certain hitters like Vlad, Bichette, Semien, Teo don't worry about it. Certain guys like Grichuk, Kirk, Gurriel, McGuire would be better off trying to get teams to play then straight up as it opens up the middle of the diamond and also the 5/6 gap as the SS can't shade over to the 3B more as the 2b is no longer on his side of the field.

I have the benefit of watching hitters for 40 years play thru various eras of baseball and how the game has changed. No way is the offense better today than years ago.

I would take the 93 Jays offense vs this one. They were able to hit with power but also hit situationally and for a high average.

Like I have said numerous times on here. I am old and just think baseball was better back in the day vs today's game which is hard to watch with barely any action. You don't really get to see the athleticism of lots of these players as the ball is barely put in play so the D can't show off their skills, guys don't show off their speed on the basepaths and other things.

I just think it will take one team to move away from today's hitting style and see other teams follow if they are succesfull.
 
Tabler is back in Ohio. He was in Toronto for the first series where he and Dan broadcast from Rogers Centre, but since then all 3 broadcasters continue to work remotely.
 
I don't get it. How is it that the more Vladdy strikes out on low and away pitches, the more he swings at them? You'd think he'd realize by now to just stop swinging at them.

It's a complex issue that deserves to be treated with deference to its complexity.

No, it's really not. As Ryno said, I remember watching players shoot balls the other way, up the middle, and sac fly seemingly at will. The only way your logic makes any sense is if we assume players have absolutely no control whatsoever of where the ball goes, but we know that's false. Heck, just earlier this year we were watching the Jays shoot the ball to the opposite field with reckless abandon. Pretending shifting is this hugely complicated thing is just silly.
 
it actually is. Guys were doing until the numbers guys took over. Tony Gwynn, Tony Fernandez, Wade Boggs, Pete Rose would have field days with the shift. Problem is the guys are told to swing out of their asses as the numbers tell you to do damage vs little singles.

1) those guys would never be shifted on, just as spray hitters today aren't shifted on. Teams would have shifted on Dave Kingman and no, he wouldn't have been able to adjust.

2) it was easy to alter your swing to hit the ball where you wanted in 1978 when the average fastball was like 83 MPH.
 
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I'll freely admit I was wrong about Manoah. I expected a guy with his somewhat erratic control would eventually lose it and fall prey to more disciplined hitters, but no, his control has improved a bit and hitters just keep swinging through his pitches. The guy has surprised me.

1) those guys would never be shifted on, just as spray hitters today aren't shifted on.

Up the middle, dude. Don't need to shift to be susceptible to hits up the middle.

The reason why shifts work more today is because pitchers also deliberately pitch hitters into a shift, so it's not just "this guy tends to hit it that way, so let's shift". You've also got the pitchers thinking "Okay, you like hitting that way? Well, that's where all the fielders are and I'm going to throw you nothing but tight inside fastballs for you to pull, so be my quest".

That's why seeing Bichette inside-outing so many pitches the other way was so impressive early in the season. Not every hitter can do it, sure, but let's not pretend players aren't capable of adjusting.
 
All this RBI talk is making me want to put my head through the wall. Buck, please just let there be a moment of silence.
 
Checked out Tony Perez's career splits and whatdyaknow, he actually has an OPS 100 points higher with men on base or a runner on 2nd than with the bases empty. An actual clutch hitter and not just fake Jeter clutch. Crazy.
 
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