2021 Roster Thread XIX - Who's In Net

[wankstifier]

If there’s only a season left on a player’s contract, then the assets traded should be for value provided over that season. Promise to re-sign has nothing to do with the team trading the player away. I don’t understand why this is so challenging.

 

[The Madrigal]

People like to deride Fletcher like he’s a caveman. I can’t think of a GM who comes across as more thoughtful & intelligent. I also think he’s learned from his early days when he probably was a little brash.

We will see over the next few weeks. I don't think it's unfair to say that this is a crucial offseason for both the Flyers franchise and Fletcher's career here as GM.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I agree to some level. I said at the time that signing Gustafsson made no sense and was a terrible move and waste of cap dollars. I'm not encouraged by what he did last summer but there were cap constraints and the looming expansion draft that had a big effect on things around the league. His first offseason with the Flyers was fantastic though.

People can bitch and moan all they want about Hayes being overpaid and while he is they had little to no choice but to sign someone like him. Hextall didn't draft one legit top 9 center during his supposed master rebuild and you can't win in this league without center depth. Hayes was one of their best forwards during the season and in the playoffs and a huge reason why they had the success they did. He sucked for about the 2nd half of this season but it's hard to do well when you have to play through a sports hernia.

Niskanen for Gudas was a great trade and had a huge impact on the team despite half the board claiming that Gudas was better.

Braun and Pitlick were good role players for the team and both were acquired for next to nothing.

So Fletcher has two offseasons as the Flyers GM. One was great leading to their most successful season in several years, and one was bad leading to a disappointing season. This is why the whole ''You don't get it, we want to make trades but we know the guy making them will mess it up anyway'' narrative is a load of BS. Fletcher's history as GM of the Flyers is basically 50/50 and so the logical approach to this offseason would be cautious optimism. I neither expect him to have a great offseason or a poor one. His first summer here along with saying that the mix of players here obviously isn't the right one provides some definite encouragement though. Thinking otherwise is nothing more than choosing to operate under a clear agenda because at the very least he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I don’t criticize him as much for his 2nd offseason. I mean, the Niskanen retirement was a surprise killer, the Hart collapse no one predicted & was probably the biggest factor in the team’s missing the playoffs, & with the cap unexpectedly flattened, the trade market was stymied despite by all accounts Fletcher being very aggressive. He didn’t force an unfair trade just to make a move, so he probably deserves credit for that. And he gave Brodie an offer, Brodie just chose Toronto & the NMC. Supposedly was in on Toffoli, too. Sometimes players have another preference.

Completely agree this is a big offseason for him, though. I’m confident, for the moment.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

you wouldn’t part with Frost to get Eichel? Really?
Look, I get it. He comes with risk, but he is a guy I would roll the dice on. Better than throwing assets at Jones when it looks like he wants to test the market.
If Eichel returns to form and we don’t trade for him and it was Frost who was the deal breaker, fans will not be happy

Neck injuries have way too many question marks and you're rolling the dice that he MIGHT have a long career. If it's true that it's disc replacement in his neck, you're looking at a minimum of three months before he can begin working out and getting into shape and probably another 3 to 4 months of getting back into game shape, so there's seven months right there. If spinal fusion is also required (and that's the million dollar question) then it becomes a 12 to 16 month window. Those are my reasons for not making the deal for Eichel. Now I'm certain that the Flyers medical staff will have more information than what any of us have, but then you have to ask - do you trust the Flyers medical and training staff?

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I don’t criticize him as much for his 2nd offseason. I mean, the Niskanen retirement was a surprise killer, the Hart collapse no one predicted & was probably the biggest factor in the team’s missing the playoffs, & with the cap unexpectedly flattened, the trade market was stymied despite by all accounts Fletcher being very aggressive. He didn’t force an unfair trade just to make a move, so he probably deserves credit for that. And he gave Brodie an offer, Brodie just chose Toronto & the NMC. Supposedly was in on Toffoli, too. Sometimes players have another preference.

Completely agree this is a big offseason for him, though. I’m confident, for the moment.

The Niskanen retirement wasn't a surprise though. Schmuck knew Niskanen was retiring and basically told him to sleep on it. Schmuck's backup plan was to re-sign Braun. Schmuck didn't have a plan.

 

[Striiker]

If there’s only a season left on a player’s contract, then the assets traded should be for value provided over that season. Promise to re-sign has nothing to do with the team trading the player away. I don’t understand why this is so challenging.

Because if we pretend he's worth more, Fletcher doesn't look as bad when he overpays

 

[The Madrigal]

Neck injuries have way too many question marks and you're rolling the dice that he MIGHT have a long career. If it's true that it's disc replacement in his neck, you're looking at a minimum of three months before he can begin working out and getting into shape and probably another 3 to 4 months of getting back into game shape, so there's seven months right there. If spinal fusion is also required (and that's the million dollar question) then it becomes a 12 to 16 month window. Those are my reasons for not making the deal for Eichel. Now I'm certain that the Flyers medical staff will have more information than what any of us have, but then you have to ask - do you trust the Flyers medical and training staff?

So you wouldn't trade Frost for Eichel

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Jones is my top target and while I don't need an extension in place to trade for him there are a few caveats to that.

First of all, I wouldn't trade for him unless there was at least some sort of assurance from his agent that he is willing to talk about a new deal before the season starts. If word from his camp is we plan to see how the season goes and will consider talking about a new deal down the line then I would move on.

Second, if there isn't a new deal signed on the dotted line upon completion of trade I wouldn't be giving up as much to get him. So let's say Jones doesn't want to sign a long term deal before the trade is completed but his agent says he is willing to re-sign and talk throughout the summer, then I would make a deal but Columbus is getting less.

When you consider that Hamilton, Dumba, OEL, and possibly Ellis and Parayko are available this summer they don't need to put all of their eggs in one basket. The expansion draft could be a major factor here but the longer this drags out the more I get the feeling they will go in a different direction.

Ryan Ellis locked up for 6 more years at a cap hit of 6.25 million is incredible value, even if his level of play starts to drop off a little bit by years 5 and 6 of the deal. I just hope they don't sign someone like Larsson, Savard, or Martinez and have that be their big acquisition on defense for the summer. I am perfectly fine with adding someone like that for the 2nd pairing in addition to a top pairing guy. Someone like that alone won't move the needle though on or off the ice.

Making a move for Jones or Eichel is a move that a team would make to put them over the top in terms of Stanley Cup contention. This doesn't move the Flyers needle. There are too many holes in lineup and moving two to three players on the roster for one means two steps back. It makes no sense for the Flyers to do this. Continue building through the draft, build up much needed depth and when the Flyers are ready to contend, then make a move. That's what good teams do. They don't deal for players from a position of weakness because ROAR CULTURE CHANGE. It feels like there's no plan at all and it's all about acquiring big name players because that's what the Flyers do. Follow what a Colorado, Tampa Bay, etc..... do. That's how you build long term.

 

[Striiker]

That's another one for the memory banks

I'm seeing a pattern of staff worship and turd polishing

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

So you wouldn't trade Frost for Eichel

I wouldn't trade Frost for Eichel with a questionable neck injury. No absolutely not. If there was a 100% guarantee that Eichel was healthy and that the neck injury can be treated without surgery and that Eichel will be 100% healthy, then yes I would. The fact that Buffalo is so vague about the neck injury should be a red flag for anyone.

 

[Rebels57]

I wouldn't trade Frost for Eichel with a questionable neck injury. No absolutely not. If there was a 100% guarantee that Eichel was healthy and that the neck injury can be treated without surgery and that Eichel will be 100% healthy, then yes I would. The fact that Buffalo is so vague about the neck injury should be a red flag for anyone.

Pretty easy gamble to take for me. Frost isnt in that Zegras/Byfield tier of C prospects where you have to really hesitate.

 

[The Madrigal]

I wouldn't trade Frost for Eichel with a questionable neck injury. No absolutely not. If there was a 100% guarantee that Eichel was healthy and that the neck injury can be treated without surgery and that Eichel will be 100% healthy, then yes I would. The fact that Buffalo is so vague about the neck injury should be a red flag for anyone.

Wow

 

[Redpath]

I wouldn't trade Frost for Eichel with a questionable neck injury. No absolutely not. If there was a 100% guarantee that Eichel was healthy and that the neck injury can be treated without surgery and that Eichel will be 100% healthy, then yes I would. The fact that Buffalo is so vague about the neck injury should be a red flag for anyone.

There also isn’t a 100% guarantee that Frost even becomes and NHL player. And there isn’t 100% guarantee we get to draft a player as good as Eichel anytime soon. And even if we do, there isn’t a 100% guarantee that said player is even as good as Eichel anyway.

Risk evaluation applies to everyone’s own team, too.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

The Niskanen retirement wasn't a surprise though. Schmuck knew Niskanen was retiring and basically told him to sleep on it. Schmuck's backup plan was to re-sign Braun. Schmuck didn't have a plan.

dont be bringing your crazy FACTUAL info inti this...

you have no idea his medical records, or his dental plan...

 

[tucson83]

Hextall killed this fanbase. He really had/has a large portion of them believing that building an entire team through the draft is a recipe for cup winning success.

they play too much nhl 21.

 

[The Madrigal]

Making a move for Jones or Eichel is a move that a team would make to put them over the top in terms of Stanley Cup contention. This doesn't move the Flyers needle.

So adding an elite player in their prime at a position of great need doesn't move the needle. Interesting opinion.

There are too many holes in lineup and moving two to three players on the roster for one means two steps back. It makes no sense for the Flyers to do this.

Who said there is a rule they have to move two or three roster players to get one of those guys. They could easily put together a package heavy on draft picks and prospects. Furthermore, of they are trading Jones for example and the two roster players heading the other way are Myers and Patrick we are talking about replacing a guy who didn't play at a 2nd pairing level last year and a guy who had 9 points and was -30 something for an elite number 1 defenseman. How you think that doesn't move the needle for the Flyers and make them significantly better is perplexing to say the least.

Continue building through the draft, build up much needed depth and when the Flyers are ready to contend, then make a move.

They've been building through the draft for years now. At some point you have to add some proven talent or you aren't going anywhere. Also, they have plenty of depth at the wing position and prospect depth in general. They could easily cash in some of the depth in those areas to address areas of need on defense, in goal, and at center.

That's what good teams do. They don't deal for players from a position of weakness because ROAR CULTURE CHANGE. It feels like there's no plan at all and it's all about acquiring big name players because that's what the Flyers do.

No, good teams supplement their youth with the right veteran additions through free agency and trades. Even Pittsburgh who completely tanked and ended up with two generational talents at center and a HOF goalie all drafted 1 or 2 overall brought in veterans to help them put them over the top and win cups.

Furthermore, nobody is saying just go out and get the biggest names possible. What people are saying is, it's time to take some of the young talent and picks we have accumulated and cash them in to put the right proven talent around the young players we decide to keep. This is the exact opposite of dealing from a position of weakness.

Follow what a Colorado, Tampa Bay, etc..... do. That's how you build long term.

Colorado signed their goalie in free agency. They traded for Kadri, Burakovsky, Girard, and signed Toews, Nichushkin, and Donskoi in free agency. In the case of Colorado their core is also what it is in large part due to the fact that they had several top 5 picks in recent years which allowed them to get MacKinnon, Landeskog, and Makar. The Flyers have only gotten one top 5 pick and two top 10 picks since 2008. Those being Patrick, Couturier, and Provorov. Colorado currently has SEVEN top 10 picks on their roster most of which they drafted.

Tampa traded for almost their entire defense minus Hedman. McDonagh, Ruuta, Savard, Sergachev, Cernak all traded for. They also traded for Blake Coleman and Barclay Goodrow.

Both teams built their core through the draft but they also made plenty of significant moves through trade and free agency which has led to their success. You are also talking about two of the best drafting teams in the entire league in recent years which makes them an outlier to the norm.

 

[The Madrigal]

dont be bringing your crazy FACTUAL info inti this...

you have no idea his medical records, or his dental plan...

Just an FYI, you are teaming up with the guy who wouldn't trade Morgan Frost straight up for Jack Eichel.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

There also isn’t a 100% guarantee that Frost even becomes and NHL player. And there isn’t 100% guarantee we get to draft a player as good as Eichel anytime soon. And even if we do, there isn’t a 100% guarantee that said player is even as good as Eichel anyway.

Risk evaluation applies to everyone’s own team, too.

And Eichel's neck is a serious questing mark. The fact that Buffalo is being so vague about things is what's concerning. This a neck injury that there seems to be no consensus about how bad it is. For that reason, you walk away. That's just me though.

 

[The Madrigal]

And Eichel's neck is a serious questing mark. The fact that Buffalo is being so vague about things is what's concerning. This a neck injury that there seems to be no consensus about how bad it is. For that reason, you walk away. That's just me though.

If he's healthy you are getting a top 10 forward in the league who is only 24 years old, for a good but not great prospect who is totally unproven in the NHL and might never amount to anything. Your opinion on this is so ridiculous that I'm not even going to kill you for it because I'd feel bad. It would be kind of like killing a mockingbird.

 

[Tripod]

you are not getting Eichel for just Frost so it's silly to discuss like it's a possibility.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I’d obviously trade Frost for Eichel. But that’s not going to be the price so that’s irrelevant. I’d still bite the bullet on the health risk with Eichel even with multiple assets going the other way. I much rather gamble on him than Jones for example. But at the same time I can’t completely hand wave the injury risk.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The Niskanen retirement wasn't a surprise though. Schmuck knew Niskanen was retiring and basically told him to sleep on it. Schmuck's backup plan was to re-sign Braun. Schmuck didn't have a plan.

No. Niskanen had a two year contract & Covid was the reason he retired. His retirement was as much of a surprise as Covid.

 

[tucson83]

So adding an elite player in their prime at a position of great need doesn't move the needle. Interesting opinion.

the other thing that tanking fans dont realize is the players feelings too, alot of players want out and go to cup contending teams. heck some players that are picked from draft in the top 5 want to go back to college because of the environment being so bad.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You give up Frost for Eichel without batting an eye.

 

[BernieParent]

....so he can sign ADA.

The American Dental Association? That's a great move to increase the IQ of this franchise!