2021 Roster Thread XIX - Who's In Net

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Curufinwe

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Hextall was nothing like Homer as GM. They are not in the same mold at all. Fletcher hasn’t been like Homer, either. When you have to make up nonsense to support your narrative, it’s better to just abandon the narrative no matter how many pages of it you have typed up and ready to go. Those Ex Flyers you listed could drop dead tomorrow and it wouldn’t change a thing about how the team is being put together.
 

Beef Invictus

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I’m convinced Madrigal and Ghosts Beer have some kind of self-embarrassment fetish. :laugh:

They have to get off on this stuff because nobody else could organically be this wrong, this often, and be this arrogant about their ignorance.

"They don't want to trade anyone for anybody"

I guess they've missed the legion of major Eichel proposals.
 

Beef Invictus

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Hextall was nothing like Homer as GM. They are not in the same mold at all. Fletcher hasn’t been like Homer, either. When you have to make up nonsense to support your narrative, it’s better to just abandon the narrative no matter how many pages of it you have typed up and ready to go. Those Ex Flyers you listed could drop dead tomorrow and it wouldn’t change a thing about how the team is being put together.

They all value the same kind of trash players. They sucked/suck at building depth around cores. Just like Clarke. All more of the same.

The same dumb values that brought us Cote, brought us Shelley and VDV and Stewart.
 
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Beef Invictus

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Myers, Frost, Wisdom, and a 2022 first round pick for Jones.

Who else is going to clear cap space? That's a pretty important component.

Who is stepping into center? We surely can't sit tight there.

If by most you mean some, then sure.

Although I can't imagine you would be one of them since according to you the players aren't the problem and the team's lack of success is all about management, coaching, and poor culture.

Please start listing the people who are arguing Hextall's rebuild succeeded.
 
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Starat327

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It was rhetorical.......because I do think that would've been a very doable trade. Obviously, not all 2nds and 3rds carry the same value. But, boy, it sure would be nice to have some more chips with which to play. Marginal value rears its ugly head again.

Fletcher Apologists: "A 2nd and a 3rd have a low chance of helping the team even 4 years down the road, lolz."

Rob Blake: "Let me show you how it's done. "
 
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Ghosts Beer

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They probably wouldn't even do that proposal from the athletic of Myers, Frost, Wisdom, and a 2022 first for Jones. To be able to get Jones without giving up Provorov, Sanheim, TK, or Farabee and the first round pick being in 2022 instead of this year would be a huge in for the Flyers. I can already hear a bunch of people freaking out about how that is way too much for Jones and people like you and I getting a good laugh out of it.
Yep. There already was an immediate & predictable balking.
 
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Psuhockey

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They all value the same kind of trash players. They sucked/suck at building depth around cores. Just like Clarke. All more of the same.

The same dumb values that brought us Cote, brought us Shelley and VDV and Stewart.
Right now the Holmgren years look pretty good in hindsight.
 

Flyer lurker

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Myers, Frost, Wisdom, and a first for Jones ---- seems like an overpayment for me.

Am I just being a bit of a homer and rating our guys too high? Keep in mind Myers is one of my favorite Flyers lol
For a player with only one year on his deal it is a huge overpayment. You trade for Jones because you are Jones away from the cup. By all means the Avs should over pay as with the right g, add Jones, and TBL losing players due to the cap, you can make the Avs the favorites. That ain't the Flyers.
Myers would not be the first defenseman ever to have a bad year early in his career and bounce back to be very very very good. If I had a question, it's can you afford to play a rookie D-man with Myers next year and it work out?Please no Hagg Myers pairing!!!!
 
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Magua

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@Surrounded By Ahos can confirm, but I believe thay would be Jake Bean.

I’d imagine Carolina would get creative in finding another $4-6 mil undervalued player. That’s their shtick. They’d have money to spend, and I think they know Bean doesn’t cut it. Especially at ES. Nothing else in-house. I don’t know who that player would be…..but think Sanheim-like. Carolina has a ton of assets to use in a trade; they could legitimately pay for a solution. I don’t really see UFA options.

Any RD rumored about, Carolina has the protection slot and the assets.
 

Beef Invictus

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Right now the Holmgren years look pretty good in hindsight.

Gonna do a hard disagree, since I spent the whole time dreading these current dying times as the harvest of his tenure.

Well the first couple years were bright, but eventually it was clear that the guy seemed determined to spite the cap rather than operate within it.
 
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FLYguy3911

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Myers, Frost, Wisdom, and a first for Jones ---- seems like an overpayment for me.

Am I just being a bit of a homer and rating our guys too high? Keep in mind Myers is one of my favorite Flyers lol
It is. The people bitching about people bitching don't understand the concept of "team control". If you are viewing Seth Jones as anything more than a one year rental, you are doing it wrong. That is all you are guaranteed. And he's not agreeing to a discount on an extension, so I'm not paying extra in assets for the right to give him a $70 million contract.

Myers - 3 years of control at what is likely reasonable dollars given his lack of points. I'm a little cooler on Myers but the tools for a 6'5 RHD are still quite rare.

Frost - 5 years of control for one of the few young forwards with top 6 upside. I have no doubt he blows up in Columbus with the clear path to playing time. I think people forget he was the best player in the best Junior league in the world for a good ~two year period.

Wisdom - 7/8 years of control. I'm not against selling high on him, but you can't give up this many controlled assets in one deal.

1st round pick - it's potentially another 7/8 years of team control.

I feel like they forgot to put Ghost in the deal. They are going to at least need to take back some salary in that deal.
 

Beef Invictus

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Yep. There already was an immediate & predictable balking.

How does the cap work? We would need to add a center now too. With what space? We also need to sign Hart, and a backup, and Sanheim. Maybe Morin too. And then Couturier is up next year with a flat cap.

That proposal doesn't add up. More has to go than that. And Jones isn't good enough to compensate for that. That's not balking, that's hard math and hard truth. It's a bad proposal that doesn't work.

Well it works I guess if we let Jones walk but that's an idiotic price for a rental.
 
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FLYguy3911

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upload_2021-7-1_20-15-44.png


upload_2021-7-1_20-14-44.png


One is Morgan Frost. The other is Nick Suzuki.
 

Surrounded By Ahos

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Who runs the point on PP1 for Carolina if Hamilton leaves?
@Surrounded By Ahos can confirm, but I believe thay would be Jake Bean.


That's a great question, and it'll depend on how the expansion draft shakes out. Right now it seems likely that whichever of Skjei or Bean doesn't get protected will get picked, since the best exposed forwards are going to be guys like Fast, Steven Lorentz, and Morgan Geekie. Bottom six guys at best, where Skjei is an established top four defenseman and Bean is a former first rounder who has been great in the AHL, but hasn't quite established himself in the NHL yet.

Personally I think I'd protect Skjei, but I honestly have no idea how it'll all shake out.


As far who will run the powerplay, I have no idea. They could bring in somebody like Barrie to replace Dougie, or plug in somebody already on the roster like Pesce or Gardiner (who I think is basically done at this point, his back seems to be shot). If Bean survives the expansion and nobody else is brought in, he'll probably be the guy by default, but there's a lot in the air right now. It'll be interesting to see how things end up by October.
 
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Ghosts Beer

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How does the cap work? We would need to add a center now too. With what space? We also need to sign Hart, and a backup, and Sanheim. Maybe Morin too. And then Couturier is up next year with a flat cap.

That proposal doesn't add up. More has to go than that. And Jones isn't good enough to compensate for that. That's not balking, that's hard math and hard truth. It's a bad proposal that doesn't work.

Well it works I guess if we let Jones walk but that's an idiotic price for a rental.
So I guess you’re against signing Hamilton, then, because there’s no salary going the other way?

The balking at that particular suggestion isn’t about the cap if the same people are pushing for Hamilton. And it’s not about Jones contract if the suggestion is contingent on an extension.
 

Prongo

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That's a great question, and it'll depend on how the expansion draft shakes out. Right now it seems likely that whichever of Skjei or Bean doesn't get protected will get picked, since the best exposed forwards are going to be guys like Fast, Steven Lorentz, and Morgan Geekie. Bottom six guys at best, where Skjei is an established top four defenseman and Bean is a former first rounder who has been great in the AHL, but hasn't quite established himself in the NHL yet.

Personally I think I'd protect Skjei, but I honestly have no idea how it'll all shake out.


As far who will run the powerplay, I have no idea. They could bring in somebody like Barrie to replace Dougie, or plug in somebody already on the roster like Pesce or Gardiner (who I think is basically done at this point, his back seems to be shot). If Bean survives the expansion and nobody else is brought in, he'll probably be the guy by default, but there's a lot in the air right now. It'll be interesting to see how things end up by October.
My thinking was if there were a team that might be interested in Ghost, Carolina could be one team.
 

Rebels57

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Myers, Frost, Wisdom, and a first for Jones ---- seems like an overpayment for me.

Am I just being a bit of a homer and rating our guys too high? Keep in mind Myers is one of my favorite Flyers lol

tenor.gif


I wouldnt trade Myers straight up for Jones. Mainly because Jones is a piece of shit, but also because its really bad to pay good players big money for a long time as if they are elite ones. Just a terrible idea in this salary cap hellscape.
 
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Lord Defect

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Nov 13, 2013
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I'm not cherry picking anything. If you've paid attention to the team you would know that ten years ago they won a playoff series. Since then they gone on a streak of nine years with only playoff series win.

Oh, so when I choose a period of time to look back at I'm cherry picking, but when you do it's not. You could at least try to not to contradict yourself within two sentences.

So wait, now we should go back 16 years. Makes sense since that is the only way your comment about ''drastic changes'' will have any validity. The majority of their core and certainly at the forward position has been the same for the last decade with Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, and Simmonds/JVR. The only major forwards they have traded or added over that time period were Schenn and Hayes.

Yes, which is exactly why I keep saying that. Perhaps you aren't paying attention. They won a series in 2012 and then not again until 19-20 which also happened when AV and Fletcher were here and in large part to Fletcher adding Niskanen, Hayes, and Braun. So, since the start of the 2012-2013 season they have won one playoff series in nine years.

Incorrect.

Incorrect. Voracek and Couturier debuted for the Flyers in 2011 and have been here for 10 seasons. Giroux has also been here for that entire time. Simmonds was on the team for 7 of those 11 years, and JVR has been here JVR four of those 11 seasons. Other than Schenn and Hayes via trade or free agency, with only minor changes sprinkling in some youth such as Konecny who has now been on the big club for five years and Farabee for two years. The defense did transition from Timonen/Coburn to the Provorov's, Ghost's, Sanheim's of the world but again all homegrown talent with no major trades or FA signings for several years until Fletcher brought in Niskanen. Otherwise you are talking about the same core group of defenseman for about five years now.

Exactly what are these culture changes that were made that failed miserably over the last decade other than Hextall's draft picks in general being good and not great, and his half assed rebuild where he held onto assets he should have moved. Had he traded Simmons when he still had value for example perhaps they have one less piece they need to add. I''m dying to hear about all of these major culture change they have made over the last decade though considering they've barely made any significant trades or FA signings to shake up the core group. Hextall's plan was to draft a bunch of players and for most of them to work out and the team and fans are still paying the price for that.

The f*** are you even talking about, LMAO. Fletcher has had TWO offseasons as GM and AV has had TWO season as the coach. Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, etc have been here a decade. Provorov, Ghost, TK, etc for about half a decade. LMAO, the only playoff series they did win over the last 9 years was with AV as the coach and in part to Fletcher acquiring Hayes and Niskanen. For the love of god think before you post.

They have ultimately failed to produce results as the core group of forwards on this team. It would be unfair to put all of the blame on them which I certainly will not do. However, at some point you have to look back on a decade of failure and consider that perhaps the constants are part of the problem and if nothing else trying something different might be worth some consideration. Either that or you can just be content with having a wheel that continues to spin in mud and never get out. Definition of insanity, doing the dame thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

That is yet to be determined. If you don't think adding a top pairing defenseman in general would help this team than there is no hope for having a decent conversation with you. Either way, sticking with the same group of core players that have been here for a decade, and the same home grown talent that have been heavily relied upon for the last five years or so is already proven to have been a failure. Nobody is saying purge the entire team, but significant changes are clearly in order to anyone with half a brain.

They've had several GM's and coaches over the last decade. They have continued to change those areas up far more than the players and so your solution is to change that again. Wow.

Completely unclear. If anything it's the opposite since GM's and coaches have been changed multiple times and it hasn't changed a damn thing. They even had a coach over the last decade who everyone thought was terrible who went on to win a stanley cup with another team.

You mean the same group that brought the only playoff series win and exciting season the team has had over the last nine years, interesting logic.

Flat out incorrect on the bolded comment. They have made more changes to the coaches/coaching staff and with the GM than they have the core group of players.

Furthermore it's honestly laughable that you think a new coach and GM would have any significant impact on the team as it is currently constructed. They aren't skilled or fast enough, they also lack toughness, their defense is majorly flawed, they have too many young players that they continually have counted on to step up, and now Giroux, Voracek, and JVR are hitting their mid30's. Scotty Bowman in his prime couldn't turn this roster into a cup contender.
Dude. I don’t care what stance you’re taking, but if I have to keep scroll past war and peace, you’re getting set to ignore. This is ridiculous
 
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