2021 Roster Thread XIX - Who's In Net

[Prongo]

Hamilton & Manson have been my dream since before the season ended.

Is Manson still available? Haven’t heard anything regarding him lately.

 

[WolfOfBroadStreet14]

Hamilton and Larsson make it happen fletch

 

[Rebels57]

Is Manson still available? Haven’t heard anything regarding him lately.

I'm assuming yes. He's in his late 20's and nearing the end of his contract so i'm sure he's available considering Anaheim is in a rebuild.

 

[Prongo]

I'm assuming yes. He's in his late 20's and nearing the end of his contract so i'm sure he's available considering Anaheim is in a rebuild.

Hagg and a 3rd? Ha I kid…. Kinda.

 

[Beef Invictus]

People seem to think every trade suggested is a bad move unless it’s a lopsided trade that isn’t realistically going to happen.

People are balking at the idea of trading Morgan Frost for Seth Jones, for crying out loud.

It’s absurd how many people here are overrating & strongly attached to the Flyers’ young players.

Of course there will always be someone who thinks some given move is bad.

You're acting like it applies to everyone here, which requires that you ignore some pretty significant trends, like general acceptance of trading Giroux and even Couturier.

Oh, and people aren't balking at Jones for Frost. People are balking at Frost, plus others, plus what his cap hit will be (assuming he even stays) plus taking team context into account rather than looking at it purely in a vacuum. People are considering the entire situation.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

clickbait stuff right there

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Its exactly the same problem and why Francis is going to try to bend us over to take JVR or JV off the roster. And I am scared Fletch is going to ask for extra baby oil.

At least with Hamilton signing you keep 4 prospects to try to move the expensive players off your roster.

Francis knows the advantages he has with tons of cap room in a flat-cap league. Of course he’s going to leverage that space.

If you’re the Flyers, you just have to weigh the cost/benefits. Obviously there’s a limit, & it depends on what they think they can accomplish with the added cap room.

As for Hamilton, he’s going to have a lot of offers. The Flyers weren’t able to sign Brodie. You can’t rely on signing Hamilton, & that says nothing about whether they like his fit vs. the huge investment.

 

[The Madrigal]

9 years? What made you cherrypick that number?

I'm not cherry picking anything. If you've paid attention to the team you would know that ten years ago they won a playoff series. Since then they gone on a streak of nine years with only playoff series win.

This era begins in 2011

Oh, so when I choose a period of time to look back at I'm cherry picking, but when you do it's not. You could at least try to not to contradict yourself within two sentences.

though I'd argue that we should be taking it back to the beginning of the Cap Era

So wait, now we should go back 16 years. Makes sense since that is the only way your comment about ''drastic changes'' will have any validity. The majority of their core and certainly at the forward position has been the same for the last decade with Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, and Simmonds/JVR. The only major forwards they have traded or added over that time period were Schenn and Hayes.

You do know that 9 years ago includes a playoff win, right?

Yes, which is exactly why I keep saying that. Perhaps you aren't paying attention. They won a series in 2012 and then not again until 19-20 which also happened when AV and Fletcher were here and in large part to Fletcher adding Niskanen, Hayes, and Braun. So, since the start of the 2012-2013 season they have won one playoff series in nine years.

Major changes have been made to the core.

Incorrect.

The only common players going back to The 2011 Shakeup are Giroux and JVR, and JVR has an asterisk.

Incorrect. Voracek and Couturier debuted for the Flyers in 2011 and have been here for 10 seasons. Giroux has also been here for that entire time. Simmonds was on the team for 7 of those 11 years, and JVR has been here JVR four of those 11 seasons. Other than Schenn and Hayes via trade or free agency, with only minor changes sprinkling in some youth such as Konecny who has now been on the big club for five years and Farabee for two years. The defense did transition from Timonen/Coburn to the Provorov's, Ghost's, Sanheim's of the world but again all homegrown talent with no major trades or FA signings for several years until Fletcher brought in Niskanen. Otherwise you are talking about the same core group of defenseman for about five years now.

I think you're putting your head in the sand to ignore that. Further. It is not the players fault if a management culture makes lots of changes over a long period and a ton of them fail miserably. That lies at the feet of the failed management culture making these moves.

Exactly what are these culture changes that were made that failed miserably over the last decade other than Hextall's draft picks in general being good and not great, and his half assed rebuild where he held onto assets he should have moved. Had he traded Simmons when he still had value for example perhaps they have one less piece they need to add. I''m dying to hear about all of these major culture change they have made over the last decade though considering they've barely made any significant trades or FA signings to shake up the core group. Hextall's plan was to draft a bunch of players and for most of them to work out and the team and fans are still paying the price for that.

Why expect different results by purging the tiny remnants who have survived the whole time, when the purging and replacing will be done by the same culture that has brought nothing but disappointment, boredom, and failure?

The f*** are you even talking about, LMAO. Fletcher has had TWO offseasons as GM and AV has had TWO season as the coach. Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, etc have been here a decade. Provorov, Ghost, TK, etc for about half a decade. LMAO, the only playoff series they did win over the last 9 years was with AV as the coach and in part to Fletcher acquiring Hayes and Niskanen. For the love of god think before you post.

Giroux isn't the problem. Voracek isn't the problem. Couturier isn't the problem.

They have ultimately failed to produce results as the core group of forwards on this team. It would be unfair to put all of the blame on them which I certainly will not do. However, at some point you have to look back on a decade of failure and consider that perhaps the constants are part of the problem and if nothing else trying something different might be worth some consideration. Either that or you can just be content with having a wheel that continues to spin in mud and never get out. Definition of insanity, doing the dame thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Jones isn't the solution.

That is yet to be determined. If you don't think adding a top pairing defenseman in general would help this team than there is no hope for having a decent conversation with you. Either way, sticking with the same group of core players that have been here for a decade, and the same home grown talent that have been heavily relied upon for the last five years or so is already proven to have been a failure. Nobody is saying purge the entire team, but significant changes are clearly in order to anyone with half a brain.

Purging the old guard running the team from top to bottom and starting anew with a fresh, modern culture that can strive for more than occasional mediocrity in the capped NHL is where success lies.

They've had several GM's and coaches over the last decade. They have continued to change those areas up far more than the players and so your solution is to change that again. Wow.

It's clear now that nothing else will work.

Completely unclear. If anything it's the opposite since GM's and coaches have been changed multiple times and it hasn't changed a damn thing. They even had a coach over the last decade who everyone thought was terrible who went on to win a stanley cup with another team.

Letting this same group continue to do shit isn't going to suddenly work. Blaming good players for management failures won't fix the root of failure. Bringing in new players won't either; we should know, we've seen a lot of them.

You mean the same group that brought the only playoff series win and exciting season the team has had over the last nine years, interesting logic.

Flat out incorrect on the bolded comment. They have made more changes to the coaches/coaching staff and with the GM than they have the core group of players.

Furthermore it's honestly laughable that you think a new coach and GM would have any significant impact on the team as it is currently constructed. They aren't skilled or fast enough, they also lack toughness, their defense is majorly flawed, they have too many young players that they continually have counted on to step up, and now Giroux, Voracek, and JVR are hitting their mid30's. Scotty Bowman in his prime couldn't turn this roster into a cup contender.

 

[Flyer lurker]

Honest question to group Philadelphia Flyers - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

68.3m cap used.
need to sign Sanheim, Hart, legit backup G no 1.5m special please.
What is that above 9-10M?

How is this team going to make cap in 21 and more important make room to sign G, Couts, and extend Farabee in 22?

Lets trade for Jones, sign Hamilton, sign Larsson, trade for Manson. Its easy without a cap. Tell me who goes off this roster to make cap. And if say expose JVR or JV who are you adding for Seattle. (For record not advocating this but if Francis knows we want say Hamilton you know he wants a sweetner).

 

[deadhead]

Flyers could have signed Brodie, Fletcher just refused to give him a NMC, b/c he wasn't going to protect Brodie over Sanheim/Myers.

It's not worth paying Seattle to take anyone, if Francis wants to skip over JVR, Voracek or Ghost, he can choose between NAK, Braun and Hagg, none of which would garner more than a 3rd rd pick at best if flipped. In which case, Fletcher skips Hamilton and Jones, and makes a player for player(s) trade, matching up contracts.

 

[The Madrigal]

Could've taken advantage of Nashville for Arvidsson right now for that price

They have more wingers than they need and need to free up cap dollars to upgrade the defense and goaltending. There is literally zero upside for the Flyers to add another winger right now and someone with three years of term at 4.5 million

 

[The Madrigal]

Nonsensical. Arvidsson is not what the Flyers need to spend $4,25M in valuable cap space on for 3 years, especially right before the expansion draft. Not a fit at all.

Exactly. I want to see Fletcher shake things up and make some moves but adding Arvidsson to the Flyers would have been stupid AF for a few reasons.

 

[The Madrigal]

What was confusing to you about my post?

People want moves, but they don’t want to trade any significant names (unless it’s Provorov or Hayes, apparently).

The only name player people seem willing to trade anything for is Eichel, & the Flyers almost certainly aren’t going to be a fit for Buffalo.

And the only UFA people want is Hamilton, who almost certainly has other teams at the top of his list, & who has questions about fit for the Flyers.

So the majority here are supporting inaction. They don’t even want to trade JVR to clear space for free agents.

Man, at some point you’ve got to take a little risk. Posters’ perceptions of players like TK, Sanheim, Myers, Frost, Patrick are based on personal attachments & hope, not reality. You’d think last season would have shown that none are essential players.

They will never admit they were wrong about this because that would be them having to admit that Hextall's rebuild was a complete and total failure and all of these ''can't miss prospects' we kept hearing about ending up either being anywhere from bad to good but definitely not elite with the only great player coming out of those drafts being Hart.

 

[Prongo]

Who runs the point on PP1 for Carolina if Hamilton leaves?

 

[Flyer lurker]

Francis knows the advantages he has with tons of cap room in a flat-cap league. Of course he’s going to leverage that space.

If you’re the Flyers, you just have to weigh the cost/benefits. Obviously there’s a limit, & it depends on what they think they can accomplish with the added cap room.

As for Hamilton, he’s going to have a lot of offers. The Flyers weren’t able to sign Brodie. You can’t rely on signing Hamilton, & that says nothing about whether they like his fit vs. the huge investment.

And this is the problem. And why signing Laughton at 3m per was wrong move.

So in Jones case its not just 4 young players for Jones to fit under cap.
its
4 young players
one of JVR/JV
and pick for Seattle to take JVR/JV

for Jones

Anyone really think the team is that close to make that move? I don't.


Say you had to add a pick for Seattle to take JVR or JV. JVR and pick for Hamilton ok I can live with that. But say you add pick to get rid of one of them and the net result is a resigned Laughton and Ryan Murray for JV and pick. Then the team is further down the mediocre drink me bottle down the hole.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

They will never admit they were wrong about this because that would be them having to admit that Hextall's rebuild was a complete and total failure and all of these ''can't miss prospects' we kept hearing about ending up either being anywhere from bad to good but definitely not elite with the only great player coming out of those drafts being Hart.

Exactly.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Of course there will always be someone who thinks some given move is bad.

You're acting like it applies to everyone here, which requires that you ignore some pretty significant trends, like general acceptance of trading Giroux and even Couturier.

Oh, and people aren't balking at Jones for Frost. People are balking at Frost, plus others, plus what his cap hit will be (assuming he even stays) plus taking team context into account rather than looking at it purely in a vacuum. People are considering the entire situation.

I’m saying it applies to the board majority.

What potential trades involving a “name” young Flyer going the other way this off-season have the majority of posters reacted to positively?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm not cherry picking anything. If you've paid attention to the team you would know that ten years ago they won a playoff series. Since then they gone on a streak of nine years with only playoff series win.Oh, so when I choose a period of time to look back at I'm cherry picking, but when you do it's not. You could at least try to not to contradict yourself within two sentences.

My two proposed dates coincide with a major leaguewide event that changed the NHL and major trades that drastically changed the team, instead of picking an arbitrary cutoff to push a narrative. I'm sure had we won a series in 2013 you'd have pushed your window back a year based on nothing more.

So wait, now we should go back 16 years. Makes sense since that is the only way your comment about ''drastic changes'' will have any validity. The majority of their core and certainly at the forward position has been the same for the last decade with Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, and Simmonds/JVR. The only major forwards they have traded or added over that time period were Schenn and Hayes.

Even since 2012 we have had major changes to the core. In and out includes JVR, Hartnell, Umberger (who was meant to be a top 6 player), VLC, Jagr, Read, Schenn, Simmonds, Streit, Coburn, Carle, Timonen, Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Patrick, Hayes, Hart, Mason, Bob, Bryz, going forward perhaps Allison, York, Farabee, Lindblom. Let's not pretend the same consistent roster has led the way to failure the whole time. There has been steady, constant change with no difference in results because the whole problem starts with the people making these changes.

The reason I extend to the introduction of the Cap is because if the problem is the same management culture pushing the same poor failing ideas and chasing the same types of moves that fall flat, then you really need to go back as far as that culture has existed in the currently relevant environment.

You blame the players. This failed management method gathered those players. Why do you expect them to suddenly start doing better?

Yes, which is exactly why I keep saying that. Perhaps you aren't paying attention. They won a series in 2012 and then not again until 19-20 which also happened when AV and Fletcher were here and in large part to Fletcher adding Niskanen, Hayes, and Braun. So, since the start of the 2012-2013 season they have won one playoff series in nine years.

Incorrect.

Incorrect. Voracek and Couturier debuted for the Flyers in 2011 and have been here for 10 seasons. Giroux has also been here for that entire time. Simmonds was on the team for 7 of those 11 years, and JVR has been here JVR four of those 11 seasons. Other than Schenn and Hayes via trade or free agency, with only minor changes sprinkling in some youth such as Konecny who has now been on the big club for five years and Farabee for two years. The defense did transition from Timonen/Coburn to the Provorov's, Ghost's, Sanheim's of the world but again all homegrown talent with no major trades or FA signings for several years until Fletcher brought in Niskanen. Otherwise you are talking about the same core group of defenseman for about five years now.

Yes, thank you for helping show how much the roster has been changing. It proves my point that the roster isn't the problem, but rather the people building it and the people responsible for hiring the builders.

Exactly what are these culture changes that were made that failed miserably over the last decade other than Hextall's draft picks in general being good and not great, and his half assed rebuild where he held onto assets he should have moved. Had he traded Simmons when he still had value for example perhaps they have one less piece they need to add. I''m dying to hear about all of these major culture change they have made over the last decade though considering they've barely made any significant trades or FA signings to shake up the core group. Hextall's plan was to draft a bunch of players and for most of them to work out and the team and fans are still paying the price for that.

I never mentioned anything about culture changes. Are you reading? The whole problem is that, overall, there aren't culture changes. Clarke's management tree stands as a rotten edifice in this organization, an Yggdrasil of shit, and they perpetually hire in their image to maintain their failed loser values. That's why nothing changes in result despite GM turnover. The replacements are all in the same mold and they pursue the same sorts of moves overall.

The f*** are you even talking about, LMAO. Fletcher has had TWO offseasons as GM and AV has had TWO season as the coach. Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, etc have been here a decade. Provorov, Ghost, TK, etc for about half a decade. LMAO, the only playoff series they did win over the last 9 years was with AV as the coach and in part to Fletcher acquiring Hayes and Niskanen. For the love of god think before you post.

AV and Fletcher have extensive records and known tendencies that end in failure. They are exhibiting all those tendencies here. They have not learned from past mistakes or changed.

AV did his utmost to lose to Montreal. Hart saved him. That's the story of AV's career; suck ass at your job and hope the goalie drags you forth.

They have ultimately failed to produce results as the core group of forwards on this team. It would be unfair to put all of the blame on them which I certainly will not do. However, at some point you have to look back on a decade of failure and consider that perhaps the constants are part of the problem and if nothing else trying something different might be worth some consideration. Either that or you can just be content with having a wheel that continues to spin in mud and never get out. Definition of insanity, doing the dame thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

What more can they do? They need support. Shit management gave them shit support. This management culture stands unchanged. The shit team building continues. It will result in failure going forward. They did everything they reasonably could. Blaming them for not doing more is childish.

That is yet to be determined. If you don't think adding a top pairing defenseman in general would help this team than there is no hope for having a decent conversation with you. Either way, sticking with the same group of core players that have been here for a decade, and the same home grown talent that have been heavily relied upon for the last five years or so is already proven to have been a failure. Nobody is saying purge the entire team, but significant changes are clearly in order to anyone with half a brain.

This top pairing defenseman is not good enough to play up to a large cap hit nor can he play well enough to compensate for assets sent in payment for him. He'd need to be a true 1D to have a shot of that, and Jones isn't that. He isn't a solution. He's more of what we already have, and he's not going to do enough (especially in a garbage stretch system that plays to all his weaknesses) to compensate for that. He is a poor fit here. We are not a Jones away from contention.

They've had several GM's and coaches over the last decade. They have continued to change those areas up far more than the players and so your solution is to change that again. Wow.

Coaches and GMs from the same insular circle of failure, all hiring and signing in their failed image. No true outside blood. No true change. Everyone tied to Clarke. A big old circle of management incest ending in an inbred, anemic team. Purge them all and get new life. Clarke goes, his protege takes over. They bring their own back, raised in their image, and he takes over. He is pushed out for not sucking up to the country club enough, and then another Clarke-tied slob with mediocre unoriginal ideas is brought in to pathetic nothings. The cycle continues forever.

Completely unclear. If anything it's the opposite since GM's and coaches have been changed multiple times and it hasn't changed a damn thing. They even had a coach over the last decade who everyone thought was terrible who went on to win a stanley cup with another team.

Again, the changes at GM mean nothing if all the GMs are hired by the same people to meet the same values. And then all the coaching choices are rife with cronyism over merit. No shock they all suck.

You mean the same group that brought the only playoff series win and exciting season the team has had over the last nine years, interesting logic.

I mean the group dragged to the playoff series win despite their terrible performance by some of the people you're trying to blame.

Flat out incorrect on the bolded comment. They have made more changes to the coaches/coaching staff and with the GM than they have the core group of players.

Debatable to being with, but again...the changes don't bring any change. Different faces pushing the same ideas and values. The Flyers are Dan Snyder's Washington Football Team prior to scandal and Rivera. Lots of faces, lots of turnover, no change because of the management culture doing the hiring and hiring to meet shit values.

Furthermore it's honestly laughable that you think a new coach and GM would have any significant impact on the team as it is currently constructed. They aren't skilled or fast enough, they also lack toughness, their defense is majorly flawed, they have too many young players that they continually have counted on to step up, and now Giroux, Voracek, and JVR are hitting their mid30's. Scotty Bowman in his prime couldn't turn this roster into a cup contender.

I'm not talking about a new coach and GM. I'm talking about purging Scott, Lombardi, Clarke, Barber, and Holmgren and building fully new from the top down. Until that cycle up top is shattered, nothing will change. Nothing will matter.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I’m saying it applies to the board majority.

What potential trades involving a “name” young Flyer going the other way this off-season have the majority of posters reacted to positively?

Start listing trades that don't gut our depth, prospect pool, and cap situation and let's find out.

 

[Beef Invictus]

They will never admit they were wrong about this because that would be them having to admit that Hextall's rebuild was a complete and total failure and all of these ''can't miss prospects' we kept hearing about ending up either being anywhere from bad to good but definitely not elite with the only great player coming out of those drafts being Hart.

Most people here have been calling Hextall's rebuild a complete and total failure for a while now.

You guys are tilting at windmills.

 

[The Madrigal]

I’m saying it applies to the board majority.

What potential trades involving a “name” young Flyer going the other way this off-season have the majority of posters reacted to positively?

They probably wouldn't even do that proposal from the athletic of Myers, Frost, Wisdom, and a 2022 first for Jones. To be able to get Jones without giving up Provorov, Sanheim, TK, or Farabee and the first round pick being in 2022 instead of this year would be a huge in for the Flyers. I can already hear a bunch of people freaking out about how that is way too much for Jones and people like you and I getting a good laugh out of it.

 

[Prongo]

They probably wouldn't even do that proposal from the athletic of Myers, Frost, Wisdom, and a 2022 first for Jones. To be able to get Jones without giving up Provorov, Sanheim, TK, or Farabee and the first round pick being in 2022 instead of this year would be a huge in for the Flyers. I can already hear a bunch of people freaking out about how that is way too much for Jones and people like you and I getting a good laugh out of it.

Jones is a UFA after the season. If the flyers moved any of the above mentioned roster players we are stupid. It’s a lose immediately. This isn’t difficult.

 

[The Madrigal]

Most people here have been calling Hextall's rebuild a complete and total failure for a while now.

You guys are tilting at windmills.

If by most you mean some, then sure.

Although I can't imagine you would be one of them since according to you the players aren't the problem and the team's lack of success is all about management, coaching, and poor culture.

 

[The Madrigal]

Jones is a UFA after the season. If the flyers moved any of the above mentioned roster players we are stupid. It’s a lose immediately. This isn’t difficult.

I know, I agree with you for the most part. I have suggested several times that the offer should be something like Myers, Patrick OR Frost, and a first round pick in 2022, and under the caveat that Jones is at least willing to discuss a new deal with the Flyers.

 

[The Madrigal]

Start listing trades that don't gut our depth, prospect pool, and cap situation and let's find out.

Myers, Frost, Wisdom, and a 2022 first round pick for Jones.