Speculation: 2021-22 LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster Thread Part VI

[bland]

I call it killer instinct. Kopi is phenomenal. He is a 200 foot player who is also capable of solid numbers but he doesn’t seem to be the nail in the coffin or get behind me guy as much as I’d like him to be. I have no question that he is a fully capable captain in day to day life and taking care of people.

Not to say he never takes over a game but I think I see your point. I do think it is a balance tho. For instance Schliefle(sp) would be the opposite side of the coin to Kopi. Offense without the defense. I still say Kopi is a proven winner and hockey is a team sport. So much has to come together. The right mix and culture. Kopi’s slumps are frustrating but on the whole I don’t think the last few years are all his fault.

Well, the one thing I would say is that the struggles aren't his fault as a player, but that retaining him was detrimental because his presence as a top player meant that what should have been a bad, rebuilding team was instead a mediocre team that encouraged adding vets to take advantage of their stars instead of tearing it down. And they really needed to tear it down much, much sooner.

They should have drafted in better positions, they didn't need to waste cap on faded vets that they are still paying for, and depending on the quality of development - which is a really big sore spot - we could be watching a much better team right now.

 

[Gjwrams]

These would be my lines until trade deadline.

Kempe-Kopitar-Vilardi
Iafallo-Danault-Kupari
Andersson-Byfield-Arvidsson
Lemiuex-Lizotte-Brown
Grundstrom-AA

Each line has a veteran and a top prospect on it. Each line also has a center playing as a wing (Vilardi/Kupari/Andersson). 4th Line keeps doing what it's doing. They have been great. Cycle in Grundy and AA from time to time, etc.

At trade deadline you re-evaluate. Are you a playoff team or not? Trade off excess inventory of assets.

Now I know this won't happen because "they won't put Brown on the 4th line" . But they should and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Piston]

I agree with all your points, but I think it comes back to what I stated earlier- to be a successful GM, you need to be an a**hole. DL, after the 2012 Cup win, said he had never seen a group of guys closer to each other. In other words, he bound and determined to keep the team together. Hence the failure to buy out Richards and the extensions for Brown and Kopitar, the former of which was a bigger mistake since DB was older and in decline. To do what Bland suggests requires a sort of pitiless ruthlessness that can affect the locker room and alienate fans in the short term in order to improve longer term results. Not many people are capable of being that cold and calculating, certainly not Blake and Luc. Also, if you show no loyalty to the players who have brought home the Cups, how do you expect them to be loyal to the organization? The only person I've seen able to carry this off is Bill Bellichick, and the results speak for themsleves. The other guy who was a real, and successful, a**hole was George Weiss, the GM of the Yankees in the 1950s who continually reshaped his roster. Human nature is to reward people who have done well in the past even though their future contribution is more questionable.

 

[bland]

I agree with all your points, but I think it comes back to what I stated earlier- to be a successful GM, you need to be an a**hole. DL, after the 2012 Cup win, said he had never seen a group of guys closer to each other. In other words, he bound and determined to keep the team together. Hence the failure to buy out Richards and the extensions for Brown and Kopitar, the former of which was a bigger mistake since DB was older and in decline. To do what Bland suggests requires a sort of pitiless ruthlessness that can affect the locker room and alienate fans in the short term in order to improve longer term results. Not many people are capable of being that cold and calculating, certainly not Blake and Luc. Also, if you show no loyalty to the players who have brought home the Cups, how do you expect them to be loyal to the organization? The only person I've seen able to carry this off is Bill Bellichick, and the results speak for themsleves. The other guy who was a real, and successful a**hole was George Weiss, the GM of the Yankees in the 1950s who continually reshaped his roster. Human nature is to reward people who have done well in the past even though their future contribution is more questionable.

That's the thing that bothered me most about Blake, he had the perfect opportunity to come in and say "we have to face the fact that the previous regime did its best to win another Cup, but we no longer have the necessary elements to contend and have no choice but to start to plan for the future".

That was a ready-made chance, but instead he misread the roster and doubled-down with more vet heavy mistakes - Cammalleri, Phaneuf, Kovalchuk, etc.

I would also add that the Kings had 5 players, 25% of the game night roster, locked into retirement contracts at that time. Nobody else in the cap era has ever had that many.

 

[Piston]

That's the thing that bothered me most about Blake, he had the perfect opportunity to come in and say "we have to face the fact that the previous regime did its best to win another Cup, but we no longer have the necessary elements to contend and have no choice but to start to plan for the future".

That was a ready-made chance, but instead he misread the roster and doubled-down with more vet heavy mistakes - Cammalleri, Phaneuf, Kovalchuk, etc.

I would also add that the Kings had 5 players, 25% of the game night roster, locked into retirement contracts at that time. Nobody else in the cap era has ever had that many.

I actually blame Luc for this failing more than Blake. Admittedly, I can't stand Luc as an executive- he lacks the brain power. It was Luc who stabbed DL in the back, likely telling Beckerman that the team was still good enough to contend as long as Sutter was removed and a couple of pieces were added. Luc was the one who had to justify the move by icing a winning product, something that was no longer possible. Blake was 'along for the ride'.

 

[kilowatt]

Since the Kings won a decade ago in 2012, only five other teams have lifted the cup. LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Tampa won twice, Washington and St. Louis won one. And if we extend all the way back to 2009, only Boston gets added to the list (Pittsburgh and Chicago won the other two years). There are a lot of really great players with killer instincts that never won it all. Which isn't to say that there isn't a shelf life on players and team cultures, but you're certainly not betting against the odds by saying that a player won't captain a team to winning a cup in their lifetime. Hell, arguably the two best players in the league—McDavid and MacKinnon—haven't won anything yet, and I don't think anyone's questioning their killer instincts.

Kopitar's leadership may be a part of the problem since the '14 cup, but try as he might, he wasn't going to make up for losing our second-line center, losing our second-pairing defenseman, players getting older, cap space being taken up, lesser prospects replacing great players, coaching losing the room, players maturing and growing apart in different ways, and just generally losing the magic it takes to win a single cup in a career.

 

[bland]

Since the Kings won a decade ago in 2012, only five other teams have lifted the cup. LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Tampa won twice, Washington and St. Louis won one. And if we extend all the way back to 2009, only Boston gets added to the list (Pittsburgh and Chicago won the other two years). There are a lot of really great players with killer instincts that never won it all. Which isn't to say that there isn't a shelf life on players and team cultures, but you're certainly not betting against the odds by saying that a player won't captain a team to winning a cup in their lifetime. Hell, arguably the two best players in the league—McDavid and MacKinnon—haven't won anything yet, and I don't think anyone's questioning their killer instincts.

Kopitar's leadership may be a part of the problem since the '14 cup, but try as he might, he wasn't going to make up for losing our second-line center, losing our second-pairing defenseman, players getting older, cap space being taken up, lesser prospects replacing great players, coaching losing the room, players maturing and growing apart in different ways, and just generally losing the magic it takes to win a single cup in a career.

Forget Cups. This is about a guy whose team has only won ONE playoff game in 7 years. I am not criticizing him for not being a champion again, I am criticizing him for being the "leader" of one of the least succesful teams in the league since 2014 ended. It was always the most likely outcome given the circumstances, but the same guys handling the kids are the ones who thought that the core had another chance together instead of launching a rebuild 4 years earlier. That is the judgment we should all be concerned about. This really is a poorly run organization and I just don't see why they should be trusted developing the kids they collected given that all of their other decisions failed.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Forget Cups. This is about a guy whose team has only won ONE playoff game in 7 years. I am not criticizing him for not being a champion again, I am criticizing him for being the "leader" of one of the least succesful teams in the league since 2014 ended. It was always the most likely outcome given the circumstances, but the same guys handling the kids are the ones who thought that the core had another chance together instead of launching a rebuild 4 years earlier. That is the judgment we should all be concerned about. This really is a poorly run organization and I just don't see why they should be trusted developing the kids they collected given that all of their other decisions failed.

What do you make of his literal MVP caliber season

 

[kingsfan28]

I'm the resident pessimest lately and we have played most of the league-leading teams twice already.

Yeah it means something but kings still have to put up. Frankly Im more terrified of Arizona than almost anyone else, Kings have that shitty habit still.

The best thing to happen was them moving out of our division. It now mean a lesser chance of losing 3-5 times against them a year.

 

[lumbergh]

These would be my lines until trade deadline.

Kempe-Kopitar-Vilardi
Iafallo-Danault-Kupari
Andersson-Byfield-Arvidsson
Lemiuex-Lizotte-Brown
Grundstrom-AA

Each line has a veteran and a top prospect on it. Each line also has a center playing as a wing (Vilardi/Kupari/Andersson). 4th Line keeps doing what it's doing. They have been great. Cycle in Grundy and AA from time to time, etc.

At trade deadline you re-evaluate. Are you a playoff team or not? Trade off excess inventory of assets.

Now I know this won't happen because "they won't put Brown on the 4th line" . But they should and I'm sticking to it.

Did you demote Kaliyev? Poor kid gets no respect.

 

[kilowatt]

What do you make of his literal MVP caliber season

ok wow rude it wasnt kopitars fault that year just all the other ones

 

[Gjwrams]

Did you demote Kaliyev? Poor kid gets no respect.

My Bad.

Kaliyev-Byfield-Arvidsson

Jettison AA to whomever wants him.

Rotate in Frundy and Andersson.

 

[bland]

What do you make of his literal MVP caliber season

Terrific year that showed what he was capable of all along. He seemed relieved to be free from Sutter and responded.

Unfortunately that year was bookended by his two worst seasons and he was a total dud in the playoffs. And he was part of a leadership group that quit on his coaches in both of those seasons, so it makes that year what it really was, an anamoly.

 

[Mats26]

These would be my lines until trade deadline.

Kempe-Kopitar-Vilardi
Iafallo-Danault-Kupari
Andersson-Byfield-Arvidsson
Lemiuex-Lizotte-Brown
Grundstrom-AA

Each line has a veteran and a top prospect on it. Each line also has a center playing as a wing (Vilardi/Kupari/Andersson). 4th Line keeps doing what it's doing. They have been great. Cycle in Grundy and AA from time to time, etc.

At trade deadline you re-evaluate. Are you a playoff team or not? Trade off excess inventory of assets.

Now I know this won't happen because "they won't put Brown on the 4th line" . But they should and I'm sticking to it.

If we are still 3 pts out of a playoff by the deadline.... we are officially in a playoff race.

No doubt the prospects will eventually get a look but this is not a "prospect development" year for the Kings. Their goal is to make the playoffs, much different if they did not sign those vets and say we are going the youth route. That's why the kids need to be ready when called upon, like Durzi, although we are all pleasantly surprised on how he took advantage of his shot. He doesn't hurt the team and helps us stay in the race. The COVID situation might open the door slightly for a few call ups\games, let's see if they take advantage of it.

One thing is for sure, you can bet TMac will not make major moves to drop vets down in favor of developing prospects. Not this year.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Well, the one thing I would say is that the struggles aren't his fault as a player, but that retaining him was detrimental because his presence as a top player meant that what should have been a bad, rebuilding team was instead a mediocre team that encouraged adding vets to take advantage of their stars instead of tearing it down. And they really needed to tear it down much, much sooner.

They should have drafted in better positions, they didn't need to waste cap on faded vets that they are still paying for, and depending on the quality of development - which is a really big sore spot - we could be watching a much better team right now.

But this is complete fantasy though. A scenario like this is so rare that it's not worth thinking about as an option. If you brought up the idea to owners of a team that won 2 recent Cups, they would fire you on the spot, be it AEG or whoever else. There was no chance they weren't going to try and take advantage of Kopitar's last good contract year in 15-16. And when the team was in 1st place in the division, and top 5 overall, on the day they re-signed Kopitar, they weren't going to trade him the day before. Maybe if they were a bottom 5 team at the time.

They made their bed when they handed Quick a stupid 10 year deal after the first Cup. Then Brown got his, and disappeared offensively the day he signed, and once those two got their thank you contracts, Kopitar and Doughty weren't going to go unless they desperately wanted to leave. The organization isn't going to say yeah, you two, you can find a better place for employment. The Blues offered Pietrangelo a contract, a stupid post-Cup retirement contract, and he chose to leave. Then they spent that money on other older guys.

It's nice to think about being this ruthless and smart and forward looking, but but it's just not a realistic scenario in a professional league with very talented players who have won multiple times. With no Cup in 2012, which means no Cup in 2014, all of this is likely different. First and foremost with Quick getting a decade long contract. Of course Brown's name was in rumors before the run, so without 2012, he's not getting another deal. Then as the era winds down with no Cups, Kopitar and Doughty have no reason to stay, so they're long gone.

I agree with all your points, but I think it comes back to what I stated earlier- to be a successful GM, you need to be an a**hole. DL, after the 2012 Cup win, said he had never seen a group of guys closer to each other. In other words, he bound and determined to keep the team together. Hence the failure to buy out Richards and the extensions for Brown and Kopitar, the former of which was a bigger mistake since DB was older and in decline. To do what Bland suggests requires a sort of pitiless ruthlessness that can affect the locker room and alienate fans in the short term in order to improve longer term results. Not many people are capable of being that cold and calculating, certainly not Blake and Luc. Also, if you show no loyalty to the players who have brought home the Cups, how do you expect them to be loyal to the organization? The only person I've seen able to carry this off is Bill Bellichick, and the results speak for themsleves. The other guy who was a real, and successful, a**hole was George Weiss, the GM of the Yankees in the 1950s who continually reshaped his roster. Human nature is to reward people who have done well in the past even though their future contribution is more questionable.

And Bellichick is working with very management friendly rules in the NFL. And he still hasn't won anything without that one guy, who in turn has won again. He is a freak though.

I actually blame Luc for this failing more than Blake. Admittedly, I can't stand Luc as an executive- he lacks the brain power. It was Luc who stabbed DL in the back, likely telling Beckerman that the team was still good enough to contend as long as Sutter was removed and a couple of pieces were added. Luc was the one who had to justify the move by icing a winning product, something that was no longer possible. Blake was 'along for the ride'.

Had DL and Sutter stuck around, with no Luc to play politics, is the team going through a real rebuild before they finally had to start doing something different? They might have been a better bubble team with a real GM and coach, but they weren't going to go through another 5 year plan. It would've just been more Lucic, Lecavalier, Iginla, Bishop type moves. Maybe they could've taken better advantage of Kopitar's league wide MVP season, but had Sutter been here, Kopitar is getting 90pts to be in that conversation to begin with.

Maybe without the run in 2014, where they go out, as they should have, to the Sharks, and DL is a one hit wonder, maybe things are different. Gaborik doesn't get a stupid contract. Richards is bought out. Greene isn't back to slowly play defense. Then everything after that sort of falls into place. Maybe Kopitar chooses to go. Doughty looks more at Toronto.

 

[kilowatt]

Maybe without the run in 2014, where they go out, as they should have, to the Sharks, and DL is a one hit wonder, maybe things are different. Gaborik doesn't get a stupid contract. Richards is bought out. Greene isn't back to slowly play defense. Then everything after that sort of falls into place. Maybe Kopitar chooses to go. Doughty looks more at Toronto.

And then what? We're all watching Kopitar's MVP season saying, "Why the f*** are we so bad at retaining talent? We all knew Jeff Carter wasn't a first-line center and we let Kopitar walk!" and "We let a hall of fame defenseman go because we didn't want to pay him an extra $1 million?!"

I still think Lombardi built a team capable of winning multiple cups, but injuries and other things caught up with us much sooner than he (and frankly, anybody would have) anticipated.

 

[bland]

But this is complete fantasy though. A scenario like this is so rare that it's not worth thinking about as an option. If you brought up the idea to owners of a team that won 2 recent Cups, they would fire you on the spot, be it AEG or whoever else. There was no chance they weren't going to try and take advantage of Kopitar's last good contract year in 15-16. And when the team was in 1st place in the division, and top 5 overall, on the day they re-signed Kopitar, they weren't going to trade him the day before. Maybe if they were a bottom 5 team at the time.

They made their bed when they handed Quick a stupid 10 year deal after the first Cup. Then Brown got his, and disappeared offensively the day he signed, and once those two got their thank you contracts, Kopitar and Doughty weren't going to go unless they desperately wanted to leave. The organization isn't going to say yeah, you two, you can find a better place for employment. The Blues offered Pietrangelo a contract, a stupid post-Cup retirement contract, and he chose to leave. Then they spent that money on other older guys.

It's nice to think about being this ruthless and smart and forward looking, but but it's just not a realistic scenario in a professional league with very talented players who have won multiple times. With no Cup in 2012, which means no Cup in 2014, all of this is likely different. First and foremost with Quick getting a decade long contract. Of course Brown's name was in rumors before the run, so without 2012, he's not getting another deal. Then as the era winds down with no Cups, Kopitar and Doughty have no reason to stay, so they're long gone.



And Bellichick is working with very management friendly rules in the NFL. And he still hasn't won anything without that one guy, who in turn has won again. He is a freak though.



Had DL and Sutter stuck around, with no Luc to play politics, is the team going through a real rebuild before they finally had to start doing something different? They might have been a better bubble team with a real GM and coach, but they weren't going to go through another 5 year plan. It would've just been more Lucic, Lecavalier, Iginla, Bishop type moves. Maybe they could've taken better advantage of Kopitar's league wide MVP season, but had Sutter been here, Kopitar is getting 90pts to be in that conversation to begin with.

Maybe without the run in 2014, where they go out, as they should have, to the Sharks, and DL is a one hit wonder, maybe things are different. Gaborik doesn't get a stupid contract. Richards is bought out. Greene isn't back to slowly play defense. Then everything after that sort of falls into place. Maybe Kopitar chooses to go. Doughty looks more at Toronto.

Nonsense.

THIS team has an absolutely ridiculous amount of nepotism that exceeds anything that should be considered remotely acceptable. The front office, training and development staff are stacked with former players and it has not just clouded but completely blocked their judgment from top to bottom.

This team is not an example of "how things are done" (to paraphase), its a shining example of how things are taken way, way too far.

 

[apocalypse]

all i really needed to see was that (i think) dallas game where one of our guys was injured out of the game and a minute later you see kopi joking around with one of their guys in front of their goalie, to tell me what i needed to know about his leadership

i don't expect him to fight but you sure as shit can do without being friendly right then. great player, awesome person off the ice, not the leader that this team needs on it

Yeah. I can see Turcotte taking over the C when he gets here.

 

[apocalypse]

Forget Cups. This is about a guy whose team has only won ONE playoff game in 7 years. I am not criticizing him for not being a champion again, I am criticizing him for being the "leader" of one of the least succesful teams in the league since 2014 ended. It was always the most likely outcome given the circumstances, but the same guys handling the kids are the ones who thought that the core had another chance together instead of launching a rebuild 4 years earlier. That is the judgment we should all be concerned about. This really is a poorly run organization and I just don't see why they should be trusted developing the kids they collected given that all of their other decisions failed.

How exactly are they developing the kids they've collected? I'm curious because everyone bashes me and how I say we're rushing the kids up, please tell me.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Nonsense.

THIS team has an absolutely ridiculous amount of nepotism that exceeds anything that should be considered remotely acceptable. The front office, training and development staff are stacked with former players and it has not just clouded but completely blocked their judgment from top to bottom.

This team is not an example of "how things are done" (to paraphase), its a shining example of how things are taken way, way too far.

Show me a team who isn't made up of former players, in scouting, development etc.....

 

[kilowatt]

Current NHL GMs who played for their current club:

Don Sweeney, Bruins
Joe Sakic, Avalanche
Steve Yzerman, Red Wings
Rob Blake, Kings
Chris Drury, Rangers
Doug Wilson, Sharks

Plus many more former players who didn't play for their current teams. Here's a hot tip: every fanbase complains about their team's management. All of them, always, no matter what.

 

[Maynard]

Current NHL GMs who played for their current club:

Don Sweeney, Bruins
Joe Sakic, Avalanche
Steve Yzerman, Red Wings
Rob Blake, Kings
Chris Drury, Rangers
Doug Wilson, Sharks

Plus many more former players who didn't play for their current teams. Here's a hot tip: every fanbase complains about their team's management. All of them, always, no matter what.

Fair enough, but how many of them have volleyball teams?

 

[KingsFan7824]

And then what? We're all watching Kopitar's MVP season saying, "Why the f*** are we so bad at retaining talent? We all knew Jeff Carter wasn't a first-line center and we let Kopitar walk!" and "We let a hall of fame defenseman go because we didn't want to pay him an extra $1 million?!"

I still think Lombardi built a team capable of winning multiple cups, but injuries and other things caught up with us much sooner than he (and frankly, anybody would have) anticipated.

There's no telling what takes place had they gone out in a quiet 5 to the Sharks in 2014.

Nonsense.

THIS team has an absolutely ridiculous amount of nepotism that exceeds anything that should be considered remotely acceptable. The front office, training and development staff are stacked with former players and it has not just clouded but completely blocked their judgment from top to bottom.

This team is not an example of "how things are done" (to paraphase), its a shining example of how things are taken way, way too far.

I think you're talking about something different. They started rewarding players for having won in June 2012 when they gave Quick 10 years. That's long before the current nepotism. That was under the previous nepotism.

The organization wasn't going to let Kopitar go if he wanted to stay here. No matter who the GM was at the time. Had DL refused to sign him, he would've been fired then, not a year later. DL certainly wasn't trading him, since he added Lucic and Lecavalier to try and win while Kopitar was at $6m, and they were a top 5 overall team more than half way through the season.

 

[NikF]

Show me a team who isn't made up of former players, in scouting, development etc.....

Dude, their entire hierarchy is just former players:

President - Luc Robitaille
GM - Rob Blake
Director of Player Personnel - Nelson Emerson
Director of Player Development - Glen Murray

That's pretty much 90% of decision making there.

Then their entire development staff is just former players: Mike Donnelly, Sean O'Donnell, Jartet Stoll, Matt Greene. The lone exception being Jeremy Clark who is a conditioning/fitness guy.

They even have Craig Johnson as an assistant coach for the Reign. And there's probably more, that I can't be bothered to check out right now.

None of these guys have any NHL staff experience outside of the Kings. Not a single one has worked in an NHL staff capacity outside LA. Not one, not for a single season.

When Lombardi came in, his top guys were Hextall, O'Connell, Ferreira, Solomon...maybe I'm forgetting someone. Hextall had years as scout and director of player personnel in Philly, O'Connell was GM in Boston, Ferreira was GM in Minnesota, Anaheim, San Jose and Solomon looks like was a new find.

I'm not even saying you need experience, I'd be happy if they hire someone who hasn't played here. How do you expect to get an independent voice/mind out of this group?

 

[apocalypse]

Where did the name "Juice" originate from? I keep wondering when Kempe got the nickname Juice.