Speculation: 2021-21 LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster discussion part V

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's still a horseshit move.

This organization needs to find ways to utilize offensive players rather than vice versa at this point.

Getting sick of talent getting benched/demoted/shipped to the A after getting buried on the bottom lines so we can roll out Kempe to take infinity minor penalties, Lizotte to go play crash test dummy, etc.

It took major defensive injuries AND TM STILL playing Maatta to get Clague into a position where he could get some offensive opportunity and bam. Did you guys notice that Kupari and Kaliyev were STILL the 2nd and 3rd least TOI on the roster today? Don't get me started on Vilardi again.

I'm all for guys earning it but this organization is still completely ass backwards when it comes to growth/development with the NHL roster. They even have an alibi with Doughty out and STILL find ways to work against themselves and stifle the growth of the youth. Lucky for them today, despite their best efforts to do so, the youth still crashed through with minimal ice time.

f*** this organization so, so much.

 

[johnjm22]

It's still a horseshit move.

This organization needs to find ways to utilize offensive players rather than vice versa at this point.

Getting sick of talent getting benched/demoted/shipped to the A after getting buried on the bottom lines so we can roll out Kempe to take infinity minor penalties, Lizotte to go play crash test dummy, etc.

So Andersson and Lemieux come back. What winger do you want to sit so Tkachev can play?

Kempe? Who just scored a goal in the previous game?

Nevermind the fact that Tkachev has been absolutely terrible with his team worst -26.6 CF% Rel.

 

[apocalypse]

I'd trade all 4 for a legit top D. There's no vet on this team that has that kind of value though, unless Byfield goes with them.



Kopitar what? Who is the top pair D you're getting for a 34 year old F?

Kopitar+

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

So Andersson and Lemieux come back. What winger do you want to sit so Tkachev can play?

Kempe? Who just scored a goal in the previous game?

Nevermind the fact that Tkachev has been absolutely terrible with his team worst -26.6 CF% Rel.

Could make an argument for any number of guys, really.

The point is the philosophy--are you going to develop the youth and give them opportunities to succeed (ie Vilardi is struggling, maybe let's remove some responsibility and put him next to Danault), or are you going to bury and blame them when they can't outperform their shitty situation (ie Vilardi on the 4th line with dzone starts with other assorted plugs isn't a good enough skater to drive the play himself...guess we'd better bench him).

That's my point. I get the idea of guys have to be responsible, learn the pro game; but at some point you have to let the wild horses ride. I don't want a roster of 12 forechecking 2-way 3rd liners, 2014 is long gone. Someone has to score. Put the scorers in a scoring position. Don't draft a bunch of waterbug skill players then wonder what the f*** is up when they can't check their way out of a paper bag and put them on the 4th line to rot.

Am I wrong here--it's apparent to everyone but TM that Vilardi isn't going to be a 200 foot center. He's just not a good enough skater. But he has immense, unteachable skill in the ozone and coming off the wall; why not move him to wing next to a good skating defensive C? Why do you HAVE to saddle him of all players with "sorry you're not Jeff Carter, sit on the bench so we can play blake mother f***ing lizotte?" It's f***ing infuriating. What's the vision here? What's the philosophy? Because the draft philosophy and supposed development looks at odds with the NHL roster.

Edit; someone in the other thread just pointed out the Ducks. Sure they don't have Kopitar and Doughty; but Zegras isn't rotting on their 4th line and Drysdale isn't getting benched for Shattenkirk.

 

[funky]

With Ontario being so close I have no problem bouncing some of the prospects back and forth if they need a wake up call, extra conditioning, confidence booster etc. Tkachev might just need a bit more time to get used to our system as he hasn’t seemed to be pushing play. Hopefully it’s a few weeks to get more in sync and we see some trades that opens up a spot if he, Turcotte, Fagemo or a long list of others look ready.

 

[johnjm22]

Could make an argument for any number of guys, really.

The point is the philosophy--are you going to develop the youth and give them opportunities to succeed (ie Vilardi is struggling, maybe let's remove some responsibility and put him next to Danault), or are you going to bury and blame them when they can't outperform their shitty situation (ie Vilardi on the 4th line with dzone starts with other assorted plugs isn't a good enough skater to drive the play himself...guess we'd better bench him).

That's my point. I get the idea of guys have to be responsible, learn the pro game; but at some point you have to let the wild horses ride. I don't want a roster of 12 forechecking 2-way 3rd liners, 2014 is long gone. Someone has to score. Put the scorers in a scoring position. Don't draft a bunch of waterbug skill players then wonder what the f*** is up when they can't check their way out of a paper bag and put them on the 4th line to rot.

Am I wrong here--it's apparent to everyone but TM that Vilardi isn't going to be a 200 foot center. He's just not a good enough skater. But he has immense, unteachable skill in the ozone and coming off the wall; why not move him to wing next to a good skating defensive C? Why do you HAVE to saddle him of all players with "sorry you're not Jeff Carter, sit on the bench so we can play blake mother f***ing lizotte?" It's f***ing infuriating. What's the vision here? What's the philosophy? Because the draft philosophy and supposed development looks at odds with the NHL roster.

Edit; someone in the other thread just pointed out the Ducks. Sure they don't have Kopitar and Doughty; but Zegras isn't rotting on their 4th line and Drysdale isn't getting benched for Shattenkirk.

So what winger did you want to bench today so Tkachev could play?

 

[crassbonanza]

Only one game, but the move certainly hasn't had a negative impact today. And, as @KingsFan7824 has pointed out, leading a team in scoring over there means pretty much shit. Yeah, you can point to Panarin and Kaprizov, but even in Kaprizov's case, he was a highly touted guy for a few years before he came over so is anyone really shocked? The expectations for him were skyhigh before he even got here. Panarin is the only real surprise in years. Tkachev, the expectations were low and really, he's not separated himself from anyone for a bottom six spot. If he doesn't pan out it's not a shock to anyone outside of a few fans on message boards like these.

Based on the results this season and since TMac was hired I'm inclined to believe this was an outlier. However, if our offense did finally turn a corner I'd be very excited and fine with Tkachev being tossed aside.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

So what winger did you want to bench today so Tkachev could play?

I would definitely have put Lemieux and Andersson back in, and scratched some combo of Kempe, Lizotte, Moore and rolled

Arvidsson-Kopitar-Brown
Iafallo-Danault-Tkachev
(Moore/Kempe/Lizotte)-Kupari-Kaliyev
Lemieux-Andersson-Vilardi

Or even rotated wingers around to see if the Andersson-Tkachev-Vilardi line was preseason magic or bust. Figure out who plays well with who. My reasoning is Kempe's recklessness, Lizotte doing really nothing of note. And it's pretty obvious who the play drivers are--so why do we keep trying to square peg-round hole guys then act pikachu shocked when it doesn't work?

But even if I agreed to scratch him--I would have just scratched him, not full on shipped him off to Ontario...

Again, it's about philosophy--I'm looking at this from the standpoint of "how do I get Vilardi/Tkachev/etc. going" and relatively even accountability. I absolutely despise that we're not even double digits in and TM is already benching/demoting skill in favor of safety blankets like Lizotte instead of trying to adjust to find MORE opportunity for them instead of less.

And like example in the GDT--even if you disagree with me about Vilardi/Tkachev moves--how do you feel about Kupari and Kaliyev getting the 2nd/3rd least ice time amongst forwards today?

 

[johnjm22]

I would definitely have put Lemieux and Andersson back in, and scratched some combo of Kempe, Lizotte, Moore and rolled

Arvidsson-Kopitar-Brown
Iafallo-Danault-Tkachev
(Moore/Kempe/Lizotte)-Kupari-Kaliyev
Lemieux-Andersson-Vilardi

Or even rotated wingers around to see if the Andersson-Tkachev-Vilardi line was preseason magic or bust. Figure out who plays well with who. My reasoning is Kempe's recklessness, Lizotte doing really nothing of note. And it's pretty obvious who the play drivers are--so why do we keep trying to square peg-round hole guys then act pikachu shocked when it doesn't work?

But even if I agreed to scratch him--I would have just scratched him, not full on shipped him off to Ontario...

Again, it's about philosophy--I'm looking at this from the standpoint of "how do I get Vilardi/Tkachev/etc. going" and relatively even accountability. I absolutely despise that we're not even double digits in and TM is already benching/demoting skill in favor of safety blankets like Lizotte instead of trying to adjust to find MORE opportunity for them instead of less.

And like example in the GDT--even if you disagree with me about Vilardi/Tkachev moves--how do you feel about Kupari and Kaliyev getting the 2nd/3rd least ice time amongst forwards today?

I don't disagree with the general direction of the Tmac criticism, I just think you're taking it too far / exaggerating.

For example:
Kempe is younger than Tkachev.
Kempe scored at a 20 goal pace last year.
Kempe is a 1st round draft pick.

So why would the "how do I get player X going" philosophy apply to Tkachev but not Kempe?

Meanwhile you complain about the team being soft and you want to put the softest player on the team in the lineup.

Vilardi and Tkerriblev have been the two worst forwards, on one of the worst teams in the league. They're nearly unplayable at even strength right now.

They're both waiver exempt. Send them to Ontario so they can work on their game.

And preseason means nothing. Should I start bringing up Vilardi's atrocious WC performance?

 

[Peter James Bond II]

At least the prospects are NOT disappointing. Since the list was done, less than 2 months ago....what would you change?
I would move Rasmus up to 3 or 4. Chromiak to 7. Spence to 11-13, perhaps? Will be interesting to see how Thomas does, once he returns.
The good news is, most are doing very well and 3, may have become part of the team: Kupari, Kaliyev and Byfield by December. Clague
looked very good today and should stick, at least until DD returns. I would like to see him stick though and Maatta waived. Strand is a decent depth player and does a good job, but not sure both he and Clague will both be on the team, once DD returns. Tkachev is the mystery, atm.

Rank. Name, Pos

1. Quinton Byfield, F
2. Brandt Clarke, D
3. Alex Turcotte, F
4. Arthur Kaliyev, F
5. Brock Faber, D
6. Rasmus Kupari, F
7. Akil Thomas, F
8. Samuel Fagemo, F
9. Tyler Madden, F
10. Francesco Pinelli, F
11. Helge Grans, D
12. Kale Clague, D
13. Martin Chromiak, F
14. Kirill Kirsanov, D
15. Kim Nousiainen, D
16. Jordan Spence, D
17. Samuel Helenius, F
18. Jacob Moverare, D
19. Vladimir Tkachev, F
20. Kasper Simontaival, F
21. Lukas Parik, G
22. Austin Strand, D
23. Alex Laferriere, F
24. Andre Lee, F
25. Sean Durzi, D
26. Jacob Ingham, G
27. Aatu Jamsen, F
28. Ben Meehan, D
29. Aidan Dudas, F
30. Johan Sodergran, F
31. Juho Markkanen, G
32. David Hrenak, G
33. Braden Doyle, D
34. Bulat Shafigullin, F
35. Brayden Burke, F
36. Matthew Villalta, G

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't disagree with the general direction of the Tmac criticism, I just think you're taking it too far / exaggerating.

For example:
Kempe is younger than Tkachev.
Kempe scored at a 20 goal pace last year.
Kempe is a 1st round draft pick.

So why would the "how do I get player X going" philosophy apply to Tkachev but not Kempe?

Meanwhile you complain about the team being soft and you want to put the softest player on the team in the lineup.

Vilardi and Tkerriblev have been the two worst forwards, on one of the worst teams in the league. They're nearly unplayable at even strength right now.

They're both waiver exempt. Send them to Ontario so they can work on their game.

And preseason means nothing. Should I start bringing up Vilardi's atrocious WC performance?

I'm not trying to be hyper-critical of Kempe--I was just giving you an example.

Nevertheless, he's a 'veteran' when we're speaking of those guys, and he IS a guy who can lug the puck on his own--which is why you could move him down and he'd help a lower line while moving a 'youth' up for support/insulation.

I'm sorry but removing kempe and adding Tkachev is a drop in the team toughness bucket, that parts imo a pretty frivolous criticism.

So looking at those two in particular, the missing element from the preseason line was Andersson, right? Why, when he comes back, do you not immediately try to see if it works? Instead, you literally send one guy down and one to the bench? That's not an exaggeration, that's stupidity. And the reason they've had struggles is neither guy is fast, neither guy can really lug the puck thru the zone without support...yes, they've been struggling. So don't bench them and their offensive skill when you have at least 8 other forwards who are speedy puck possession forecheckers and almost nothing else. That's my point--we need to learn how to support these guys. Integrate them throughout the lineup and use their strengths to support others' strengths and vice versa rather than quarantining them to one line doomed to failure and then benching them when the self fulfilling prophecy comes true. And then wondering why the PP sucks when you fire away all the PP talent because it's not playing the two way game you want for 9 minutes on the 4th line.

To the waiver part I sort of agree with you--if you're just going to bench them, fine, send them down so they play big minutes, but don't just f***ing ice them on the bench. Maybe that's what they're going to do with Tkachev, but I get the feeling he's done here. That's just how it's gone. Six games and not even a scratch--just straight to Ontario while other guys have done far dumber shit.

Anyway, I asked you this, thoughts? "And like example in the GDT--even if you disagree with me about Vilardi/Tkachev moves--how do you feel about Kupari and Kaliyev getting the 2nd/3rd least ice time amongst forwards today?"

Edit: I think in the end I get what you're saying--someone's gotta come out for someone to go in, and Tkachev and Vilardi had some tough games lately, so they're candidates--I guess my resistance to that is I want to see the organization really start trying to integrate these guys instead of defaulting to 'more experience' even if it means tough games and mistakes. My worry is we're just going to have, for the next 20 games, essentially the same roster as last year, maybe even minus Vilardi instead of helping him grow. It looks like they're giving up on him in favor of Lizotte et. al. instead.

 

[FSL KINGS]

Boy this place got dark fast.

Tkatchup, Vilardi, Kaliyev, Kupari are the forwards that can go to the Reign without waivers. Could argue Vilardi.

Vilardi isn't out competing Lizzote or Lemieux for a roster spot. Should be easy for Vilardi to bump one of them out of the lineup. Just about effort.

Kempe is doing great! Really clobbered that dude today. Iafallo, Danault, Kempe is our best line. Cycling away in the O-zone. Sutter would be happy.

33, 11, 23 best to quarantine that. Sometimes they are able to get things moving.

That leaves 2 other lines for people to make the team. Not the coaches fault guys not earning their spots.

 

[kingsfan]

And like example in the GDT--even if you disagree with me about Vilardi/Tkachev moves--how do you feel about Kupari and Kaliyev getting the 2nd/3rd least ice time amongst forwards today?

I feel great about it because it worked.

You go on and on about guys being put in a position to succeed and yet here we have a game where they did succeed and you're bitching about how they didn't play more. They were given minutes best suited to them and it resulted in a great game for them both and a good team game over all. Be happy about it.

They earned their minutes, did well, and IF they keep it up, they'll get more. It's pretty simple. Tkachev -outside of one game- and Vilardi have done nothing to earn more time or really any time. I have no problems benching/scratching/demoting guys who aren't earning their playing time. No one on this team has been getting under 11 minutes a night on average, that's plenty of time to showcase what you can do. If you can't perform well enough to get the nod over another rookie or someone like Trevor Moore or Blake Lizotte in the eyes of the coach then maybe you should look yourself in the mirror. Coaches are going with the guys they feel give them the best chance to win, despite what a few of you seem to go on about in your Tmac criticism, and if you can't outplay guys like that enough to be getting more minutes then that's on you.

 

[johnjm22]

I'm not trying to be hyper-critical of Kempe--I was just giving you an example.

Nevertheless, he's a 'veteran' when we're speaking of those guys, and he IS a guy who can lug the puck on his own--which is why you could move him down and he'd help a lower line while moving a 'youth' up for support/insulation.

I'm sorry but removing kempe and adding Tkachev is a drop in the team toughness bucket, that parts imo a pretty frivolous criticism.

So looking at those two in particular, the missing element from the preseason line was Andersson, right? Why, when he comes back, do you not immediately try to see if it works? Instead, you literally send one guy down and one to the bench? That's not an exaggeration, that's stupidity. And the reason they've had struggles is neither guy is fast, neither guy can really lug the puck thru the zone without support...yes, they've been struggling. So don't bench them and their offensive skill when you have at least 8 other forwards who are speedy puck possession forecheckers and almost nothing else. That's my point--we need to learn how to support these guys. Integrate them throughout the lineup and use their strengths to support others' strengths and vice versa rather than quarantining them to one line doomed to failure and then benching them when the self fulfilling prophecy comes true. And then wondering why the PP sucks when you fire away all the PP talent because it's not playing the two way game you want for 9 minutes on the 4th line.

To the waiver part I sort of agree with you--if you're just going to bench them, fine, send them down so they play big minutes, but don't just f***ing ice them on the bench. Maybe that's what they're going to do with Tkachev, but I get the feeling he's done here. That's just how it's gone. Six games and not even a scratch--just straight to Ontario while other guys have done far dumber shit.

Anyway, I asked you this, thoughts? "And like example in the GDT--even if you disagree with me about Vilardi/Tkachev moves--how do you feel about Kupari and Kaliyev getting the 2nd/3rd least ice time amongst forwards today?"

Edit: I think in the end I get what you're saying--someone's gotta come out for someone to go in, and Tkachev and Vilardi had some tough games lately, so they're candidates--I guess my resistance to that is I want to see the organization really start trying to integrate these guys instead of defaulting to 'more experience' even if it means tough games and mistakes. My worry is we're just going to have, for the next 20 games, essentially the same roster as last year, maybe even minus Vilardi instead of helping him grow. It looks like they're giving up on him in favor of Lizotte et. al. instead.

PLAYER	TOI MINUS PK
Kopitar	18.42
Arvidsson	17:50
Brown	17:03
Kempe	14.48
Danault	14:33
Iafallo	13.46
Kaliyev	13:13
Lemieux	13:01
Kupari	12:31
Andersson	12.29
Lizotte	12:01
Moore	10:35

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Is there really that much difference between 12/13 minutes and 13/14 minutes?

PLAYER	PP TOI
Kaliyev	3:19
Kopitar	3:19
Arvidsson	3:19
Kempe	3:19
Kupari	2:07
Brown	2:07
Danault	2:07
Iafallo	2:07
Andersson	0:27
Lizotte	0:27
Moore	0:00
Lemieux	0:00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Kaliyev and Kupari are getting middle six minutes plus PP time. It's perfectly reasonable for a couple rookies 8 games into the season.

Also, Kupari is a 21 YO kid, who's played 14 games, trying to learn CENTER in the NHL. It makes perfect sense to ease him into it. Thankfully we have Kopitar and Danault so we're able to do this. I thought that was part of the plan that YOU supported? Looks like it's working.

Have you noticed Tmac is steadily giving them more responsibility? He is.


Vilardi and Tkachev are unplayable at even strength right now. Yes we want to give guys a chance to develop, but a player has to meet a certain threshold of competency before the coach can grant them ice time. Neither of these guys are meeting that threshold. Send them down.

The pre-season doesn't matter.

While I would also like to see the overall ice time more democratized, your criticisms are clearly exaggerated.

Also, Clague played 19 minutes, and led ALL players in PP time. Don't tell me Todd isn't giving the young guys a chance.

 

[Docgonzo]

I’d understand the frustration if Vilardi and Tkachev were scratched/sent down for like Luff or Wagner. But other than Lizotte they were scratched for other young players.

We can hate on Lizotte all we want but he’s one of the few players that actually plays with heart, and we’re always complaining this team doesn’t play with enough of it.

And Andersson and Lemieux bring grit and sandpaper that the team is also missing.

As was said about the win, it’s one game. Probably 2 since it’s a b2b. But Vilardi and Tkachev could be back in the lineup by Tuesday.

 

[FSL KINGS]

Maybe Vilardi being held out for a trade?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I feel great about it because it worked.
You go on and on about guys being put in a position to succeed and yet here we have a game where they did succeed and you're bitching about how they didn't play more. They were given minutes best suited to them and it resulted in a great game for them both and a good team game over all. Be happy about it.
They earned their minutes, did well, and IF they keep it up, they'll get more. It's pretty simple. Tkachev -outside of one game- and Vilardi have done nothing to earn more time or really any time. I have no problems benching/scratching/demoting guys who aren't earning their playing time. No one on this team has been getting under 11 minutes a night on average, that's plenty of time to showcase what you can do. If you can't perform well enough to get the nod over another rookie or someone like Trevor Moore or Blake Lizotte in the eyes of the coach then maybe you should look yourself in the mirror. Coaches are going with the guys they feel give them the best chance to win, despite what a few of you seem to go on about in your Tmac criticism, and if you can't outplay guys like that enough to be getting more minutes then that's on you.

That's simplistic. It was Montreal. If it keeps up tomorrow then we can maybe start really back patting. Almost anything would have 'worked' today. Yes, it was one game. Let's make it a pattern yeah?

Kupari as a C is of course going to be behind Danault, Kopitar. And I'm happy for him having worked his way allll the way back from that nasty knee injury to lead the Reign last year and earn his way up. He's also looked better and better. You guys are absolutely right that he's a good example of working for it and making it.

Kaliyev--yes, they finally used him repeatedly on the PP and got results. Everything we've been talking about here. How long did it take, how many injuries did we have to suffer, and how many vets had to fail before TM suddenly decided 'whoa wait a minute, this guy is good on the PP.'

And the next part is maybe where we differ. If you really want to spend time developing Blake Lizotte over Gabe Vilardi because it gives you a better chance to win today without one eye towards the future, I can't get on board with that. That's one of those 'closer to the playoffs further from a Cup' moves. Maybe they're being 'outplayed' because Gabe f***ing Vilardi shouldn't be a 4th line RW grinder in defensive minutes. If that's what it's going to be, might as well trade him for an elite 4th line grinder and jettison Lizotte. Stupid asset management but if you're going to bury a guy, you reap what you sow.

You can maybe argue it's chicken-or-egg--play better, Gabe/Tkachev, and you'll get better minutes--but these guys are scorers, why do you WANT to start them in the dzone next to the depth of the roster and then get curious that they aren't doing big things? (Kupari didn't when he was buried; Kaliyev didn't either) Why don't you want to have them complement the other talent and vice-versa? There are plenty of guys on this roster that can skate, forecheck--that we're insistent on the finishers-in-training to be the depth forecheckers and then wondering why we're having scoring issues and why they aren't 'performing' is insane. It's just raw misuse of talent.

PLAYER	TOI MINUS PK
Kopitar	18.42
Arvidsson	17:50
Brown	17:03
Kempe	14.48
Danault	14:33
Iafallo	13.46
Kaliyev	13:13
Lemieux	13:01
Kupari	12:31
Andersson	12.29
Lizotte	12:01
Moore	10:35

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Is there really that much difference between 12/13 minutes and 13/14 minutes?

PLAYER	PP TOI
Kaliyev	3:19
Kopitar	3:19
Arvidsson	3:19
Kempe	3:19
Kupari	2:07
Brown	2:07
Danault	2:07
Iafallo	2:07
Andersson	0:27
Lizotte	0:27
Moore	0:00
Lemieux	0:00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Kaliyev and Kupari are getting middle six minutes plus PP time. It's perfectly reasonable for a couple rookies 8 games into the season.

Also, Kupari is a 21 YO kid, who's played 14 games, trying to learn CENTER in the NHL. It makes perfect sense to ease him into it. Thankfully we have Kopitar and Danault so we're able to do this. I thought that was part of the plan that YOU supported? Looks like it's working.

Have you noticed Tmac is steadily giving them more responsibility? He is.

Vilardi and Tkachev are unplayable at even strength right now. Yes we want to give guys a chance to develop, but a player has to meet a certain threshold of competency before the coach can grant them ice time. Neither of these guys are meeting that threshold. Send them down.

The pre-season doesn't matter.
While I would also like to see the overall ice time more democratized, your criticisms are clearly exaggerated.
Also, Clague played 19 minutes, and led ALL players in PP time. Don't tell me Todd isn't giving the young guys a chance.

Yeah, sure, today they got middle six minutes and PP time. I'm not sure why you guys are acting like my complaints are isolated to this game...

I already addressed the complaints about their play and to me it's about usage, as well. I would also agree with you that they might as well get sent down and play rather than just getting buried. That Vilardi just gets scratched and Tkachev gets sent down shows no rhyme or reason to anything, Vilardi is just in the f***ing doghouse with no way out and Tkachev vs. the AHL is TBA.

You're talking about Kupari/Kaliyev getting more 'responsibility'--no, they're getting less responsibility, more preferential deployment. That's GOOD. That's exactly what I'm asking for for the other scorers, too.

Yeah, I was pretty stoked Clague got all that time today--what did it take to get him in this position again? Just had to wipe out half our defensive roster and STILL play Scott Neidermattaa over Strand? I guess it's progress even if TM has to stumble into it by getting Art-Howe'd by the hockey gods.

I know they're not going to just roll all kids, don't get me wrong. These decisions are just annoying to me and I'm not going to let a smoke-and-mirrors game against an even feebler team fool me that TM is suddenly a genius.

Let me be clear as well, I'm not trying to convince either of you guys I'm 'right'. Clearly it's just a philosophical disagreement. And my issue isn't with you, it's with TM. It's all good, but I just completely disagree that there's any real teaching methodology happening here on the actual NHL roster and they're really trying to square-peg-round-hole guys. (at least, publicly, as I think one of you pointed out who knows what's up behind the scenes).

 

[kingsfan]

I stopped reading at "almost anything would have worked today." No, it wouldn't. If almost anything would have worked, we wouldn't be a 2-5-1 team. We made changes and won. Convincingly too. We've won as many games with today's line up as we have with any other line ups combined so far in this short season and all you can do is call sending down Tkachev a "horseshit move." It's a move that maybe didn't lead to us winning, but it certainly didn't cause us to lose. I'd rather do these kind of moves than throw Tkachev and Vilardi out there, like you recommend, when they have been the worst two forwards so far this season, all so we can "dEvElOp ThEm." They've had years to develop already and they are getting bypassed by kids younger than they are. Do something or hit the farm.

 

[KingTech]

Okay I may be asking a little early but who are the top left handed defenseman in the upcoming draft and where they are rated to go So i can gage were we need to finish to get them. I have looked at future lists and have only seen right handed defense.

 

[King'sPawn]

They won and the kids are getting increasing responsibilities. Not going to complain, even if it was "just" Montreal.

The Kings have found defeat in the jaws of victory multiple times, so this was a nice change.

 

[Docgonzo]

Okay I may be asking a little early but who are the top left handed defenseman in the upcoming draft and where they are rated to go So i can gage were we need to finish to get them. I have looked at future lists and have only seen right handed defense.

That’s actually a problem, all the top rated D in this draft are RHD. Seems the LHD aren’t ranked until the 20s.

 

[kingsfan28]

Conversely, Panarin and Kaprizov led their teams in scoring before coming over and have had success in the NHL. I am not even claiming that he will be good, but I would like to give him more than a 4 game trial to see.

The team is 27th in GF/GP and that is largely buoyed by the 1st game blowout. They desperately need more offense and should be exploring any potential options they have.

The thing is they were noticable in every game they played, even when they didn't score. Aside from game 1, Tkachev hasn't done anything and got burned more than a few times. You can't just be a scorer in this league.

 

[KingsFan7824]

It's still a horseshit move.

This organization needs to find ways to utilize offensive players rather than vice versa at this point.

Getting sick of talent getting benched/demoted/shipped to the A after getting buried on the bottom lines so we can roll out Kempe to take infinity minor penalties, Lizotte to go play crash test dummy, etc.

It took major defensive injuries AND TM STILL playing Maatta to get Clague into a position where he could get some offensive opportunity and bam. Did you guys notice that Kupari and Kaliyev were STILL the 2nd and 3rd least TOI on the roster today? Don't get me started on Vilardi again.

I'm all for guys earning it but this organization is still completely ass backwards when it comes to growth/development with the NHL roster. They even have an alibi with Doughty out and STILL find ways to work against themselves and stifle the growth of the youth. Lucky for them today, despite their best efforts to do so, the youth still crashed through with minimal ice time.

f*** this organization so, so much.

However, we've all been fans for a while. Do we not know that you can't give coaches the option to play vets over youth? Because the vast majority of them will, especially at this level. Other than the obviously great young players, McDavid and Crosby are in different categories, but Kopitar and Doughty played a ton the moment they put the jersey on.

It's annoying, no question. The youth on this roster can't take ownership of the team if they aren't on the ice more, which is the most annoying part of the ice time issue for me. But, a coach's job is to win, today. If that means, at any given moment, that they can put a vet on the ice, as opposed to giving that time to a young guy who needs the experience, they will likely put the vet out there. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Fire TM, bring in another guy, and he will very likely do the same thing that got TM fired. That's why the AHL exists. That's where the coach's job isn't necessarily to win. Although I see that Tynan was on the ice for the game winner last night. The guy that has no future in the NHL. Yet he's out there in a game winning situation.

Kopitar+

Doesn't change the fact that Kopitar is 34. I guess it depends on the top pair D, but it won't be a 24 year old 1LD. That trade would be, for example, Byfield + Kopitar, to make the contracts work. Kopitar, or any 34 year old F, doesn't have real value. You might be able to get a 31 year old LD for him, but certainly not 21.

Could make an argument for any number of guys, really.

The point is the philosophy--are you going to develop the youth and give them opportunities to succeed (ie Vilardi is struggling, maybe let's remove some responsibility and put him next to Danault), or are you going to bury and blame them when they can't outperform their shitty situation (ie Vilardi on the 4th line with dzone starts with other assorted plugs isn't a good enough skater to drive the play himself...guess we'd better bench him).

That's my point. I get the idea of guys have to be responsible, learn the pro game; but at some point you have to let the wild horses ride. I don't want a roster of 12 forechecking 2-way 3rd liners, 2014 is long gone. Someone has to score. Put the scorers in a scoring position. Don't draft a bunch of waterbug skill players then wonder what the f*** is up when they can't check their way out of a paper bag and put them on the 4th line to rot.

Am I wrong here--it's apparent to everyone but TM that Vilardi isn't going to be a 200 foot center. He's just not a good enough skater. But he has immense, unteachable skill in the ozone and coming off the wall; why not move him to wing next to a good skating defensive C? Why do you HAVE to saddle him of all players with "sorry you're not Jeff Carter, sit on the bench so we can play blake mother f***ing lizotte?" It's f***ing infuriating. What's the vision here? What's the philosophy? Because the draft philosophy and supposed development looks at odds with the NHL roster.

Edit; someone in the other thread just pointed out the Ducks. Sure they don't have Kopitar and Doughty; but Zegras isn't rotting on their 4th line and Drysdale isn't getting benched for Shattenkirk.

But coaches do. You know who is 2nd on the Ducks in ice time up front? Old man Getzlaf for some reason. Granted, their coach is another retread who hasn't won anything, but he's still a coach. And, maybe more importantly, Murray gave his coach no other option. The Ducks added nobody in the offseason. If the Kings didn't bring in Danault and Arvidsson, we'd see more young guys independent of injuries, because TM would have no other choice. Not that Zegras hasn't earned his time, but he is also in a position where he's almost forced to play.

 

[KingTech]

That’s actually a problem, all the top rated D in this draft are RHD. Seems the LHD aren’t ranked until the 20s.

So maybe we can trade back and get one with some experience and a prospect for the future?

 

[Schrute farms]

Okay I may be asking a little early but who are the top left handed defenseman in the upcoming draft and where they are rated to go So i can gage were we need to finish to get them. I have looked at future lists and have only seen right handed defense.

I honestly think the #1 need and usage for that top pick (besides a trade) should be the best skilled big/tough guy there is on the board -- regardless of position. Someone who hits and is a physical presence on the ice and doesn't allow any Sh!t...whoever that guy is with the best NHL skills. Get him.

I would never say that before when drafting. But it's so desperately needed in this organization. Plus, we have enough skill throughout....and enough prospects (esp. Cs and RHD) to trade for other positions as needed.