2020 Redraft - Top 5

[Eegs]

So you dont think Raymond and Jarvis are close to Stutzle?

I mean, based on last season, I think you have to say they are

 

[Pavels Dog]

Lafreniere has been roughly point per game for half a season without much PP time and is finally figuring out why he went 1st overall.

Just seems like a bunch of double-standards tbh. Raymond's 44 points the last 45 certainly outweighs Lafreniere's 35 in 47 (production since Jan 1). Raymond also produced more at ES so the PP time argument isn't hugely valuable.

All some of us are saying is that it's a bit strange that the guy who had the best season is losing the most ground in this re-draft.

 

[Rsswmu]

Just seems like a bunch of double-standards tbh. Raymond's 44 points the last 45 certainly outweighs Lafreniere's 35 in 47 (production since Jan 1). Raymond also produced more at ES so the PP time argument isn't hugely valuable.

All some of us are saying is that it's a bit strange that the guy who had the best season is losing the most ground in this re-draft.

As a Rangers fan I wouldn’t put Laf ahead of Raymond yet. However I still wouldn’t trade him for Raymond. I know Laf can put up points in the playoffs, I do not know for sure Raymond’s game will translate.

Games down the stretch are not equivalent to playoff games. Down the stretch you are not playing the top echelon teams in the NHL that have anything meaningful to play for. A desperate Florida team destroys a desperate Philadelphia. The game tightens up a lot in the playoffs and being able to produce there is not a given. We see stars every year not produce.

 

[RedWingzz]

As a Rangers fan I wouldn’t put Laf ahead of Raymond yet. However I still wouldn’t trade him for Raymond. I know Laf can put up points in the playoffs, I do not know for sure Raymond’s game will translate.

Games down the stretch are not equivalent to playoff games. Down the stretch you are not playing the top echelon teams in the NHL that have anything meaningful to play for. A desperate Florida team destroys a desperate Philadelphia. The game tightens up a lot in the playoffs and being able to produce there is not a given. We see stars every year not produce.

this is fair...

I can understand Rangers fans preferring to keep Laf over Raymond even though you were able to admit Raymond's career has been better so far.

Laf is going off in these playoffs, I'm actually really enjoying watching him rise to the occasion, and prove to everyone the player he is. As of now Stutzle and Raymond are ahead of him, but I wouldnt be shocked if in 5 years Laf is a first line, physical, point-per-game player...He could even be that as early as next year.

As a Wings fan its just comical that Raymond had the best (regular) season of any player in this draft, yet some people have him falling a few spots in the draft...like that makes no sense. Had Raymond (only) put up the 57 pts Laf did, or the 55 points that Byfield did, these same people would probably start to argue Ridly Greig over Raymond too...it's just funny.

 

[Rsswmu]

this is fair...

I can understand Rangers fans preferring to keep Laf over Raymond even though you were able to admit Raymond's career has been better so far.

Laf is going off in these playoffs, I'm actually really enjoying watching him rise to the occasion, and prove to everyone the player he is. As of now Stutzle and Raymond are ahead of him, but I wouldnt be shocked if in 5 years Laf is a first line, physical, point-per-game player...He could even be that as early as next year.

As a Wings fan its just comical that Raymond had the best (regular) season of any player in this draft, yet some people have him falling a few spots in the draft...like that makes no sense. Had Raymond (only) put up the 57 pts Laf did, or the 55 points that Byfield did, these same people would probably start to argue Ridly Greig over Raymond too...it's just funny.

100% agree with this take around Laf and Raymond. Not going to wade in on the rest of what people think about Raymond. 2020 draft was stacked though.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Not really relevant since the guys he's being debated against aren't mainly Stützle here.
But since you brought it up; Raymond also outscored Stu by 13 goals, 18 primary points, a decent margin in 5v5 p/60 and total Even strength points, despite playing over 3 minutes less per game.

You forgot to mention Stutzle played with a wrist injury from game 4 on, and a shoulder injury for over half the year,

So playing injured and less games played, Stutzle was still able to come within 2 points of Raymond.

 

[bert]

Not really relevant since the guys he's being debated against aren't mainly Stützle here.
But since you brought it up; Raymond also outscored Stu by 13 goals, 18 primary points, a decent margin in 5v5 p/60 and total Even strength points, despite playing over 3 minutes less per game.

Lol now do their careers. Stop cherry picking. Real points are relevant. That's how they count the score in games. By how many actual goals are scored. It ain't close.

I'd take Lafreniere, Byfield, Stutzle and Sanderson.any day over Raymond. He's 5th at best. I'd rather have Jarvis too.

I mean, based on last season, I think you have to say they are

So you think Stutzle peaked at 20? First player ever? None are close he had 39 goals and 90 points. Still outscored all of them playing injured all season.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Lol now do their careers. Stop cherry picking. Real points are relevant. That's how they count the score in games. By how many actual goals are scored. It ain't close.

I'd take Lafreniere, Byfield, Stutzle and Sanderson.any day over Raymond. He's 5th at best. I'd rather have Jarvis too.


So you think Stutzle peaked at 20? First player ever? None are close he had 39 goals and 90 points. Still outscored all of them playing injured all season.

Not sure why wings fans seem to take it personally if their guy falls one spot.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Not sure why wings fans seem to take it personally if their guy falls one spot.

Pretty simple, we are less than 4 yrs out from the draft and two guys picked outside of the top 10 (Jarvis and Faber) have already proven to be elite, top-5-pick-level players. All the guys picked above Raymond have proven to be very good players, if not elite.

Those circumstances lead to many people ranking Raymond outside of the top 4. As I said, pretty simple.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Wings fans always let themselves get baited.


For me

1. Stutzle
2. Raymond
3. Faber
4. Byfield
5. Sanderson

 

[FMichael]

Eh, redrafts this early still include a lot of room for potential. Byfield made huge strides this year and his power and speed game is a unique element that is hard to find in top line scoring talent. I don’t think it’s a stretch to still take him ahead even if Raymond has been better so far in the NHL. It would be one thing if Byfield still hadn’t shown any progression, but after this year his floor is high enough to focus on the long term potential.

...and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle

 

[RedWingzz]

Lol now do their careers. Stop cherry picking. Real points are relevant. That's how they count the score in games. By how many actual goals are scored. It ain't close.

I'd take Lafreniere, Byfield, Stutzle and Sanderson.any day over Raymond. He's 5th at best. I'd rather have Jarvis too.


So you think Stutzle peaked at 20? First player ever? None are close he had 39 goals and 90 points. Still outscored all of them playing injured all season.

Let me get this straight, so career wise it's Stutzle by a mile over Raymond because his career stats are better...but career wise its also Byfield and Laf ANY DAY over Raymond because...their career stats are also better...?

Your post couldnt have been any more contradictory..something is not adding up here lol...

 

[FMichael]

I'll take a big C like Byfield any day over Raymond. Stutzle is the best player from this draft so far. So that puts him 3rd in terms of forwards.

Even if that 'Big C' ends up a borderline 2nd/3rd liner over a 1st line winger?

That said I do agree TS is likely the most skilled of the bunch and would've been drafted by Yzerman if he was available.

 

[Eegs]

So you think Stutzle peaked at 20? First player ever? None are close he had 39 goals and 90 points. Still outscored all of them playing injured all season.

With that same logic, you think Jarvis peaked as well?

 

[Regal]

Just seems like a bunch of double-standards tbh. Raymond's 44 points the last 45 certainly outweighs Lafreniere's 35 in 47 (production since Jan 1). Raymond also produced more at ES so the PP time argument isn't hugely valuable.

All some of us are saying is that it's a bit strange that the guy who had the best season is losing the most ground in this re-draft.

Laf’s totals are better closer to the end of the year. Including the playoffs he’s at 39 in his last 42 with only 5 PP points. Again though, none of this is about creating an objective list based on current rankings, so ultimately everyone is going to have their own subjective biases when it comes to player skills and projections, so double standards are going to exist.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Lafreniere has shown to be the better player yet. But anyone ranking him above would probably like his skill set more going forward, and feel confident enough in that opinion due to his recent production. Same thing for the handful of other guys who might get ranked higher.

Sure there needs to be some risk management involved where you don’t take a guy who hasn’t done anything in the NHL over him, but anyone who has been put ahead here has played as a top 6 forward or top pair defenseman this season.

 

[Bileur]

Wings fans always let themselves get baited.


For me

1. Stutzle
2. Raymond
3. Faber
4. Byfield
5. Sanderson

Seems more like thin skin and a combination of persecution complex and main character syndrome than getting baited.

People are allowed to have differing opinions.

 

[Aladyyn]

1. Stützle
2. Sanderson
3. Lafreniere
4. Jarvis
5. Raymond

 

[bert]

With that same logic, you think Jarvis peaked as well?

No I don't but he doesn't have the same elite upside. And he doesn't play center or have a 39 goal 90 point season.

1. Stützle
2. Sanderson
3. Lafreniere
4. Jarvis
5. Raymond

Good list, Byfield will end up top 3 though. Way linger development curve similar upside to Stutzle

 

[newsportsfan123]

Great player but no he's not better defensively.

Small skill speed guys typically develop faster. Love Jarvis but when this draft class is all said and done I'd be surprised if he's a top 5 player.

Guys like Byfield, Laf are just scratching the surface. Same with alot of the d men.

Brother his underlying defensive stats were miles ahead of Byfield and Laf. He was top 10 in defensive rating this year and 8th in selke voting. Laf doesn’t even have good underlying defensive numbers. Also, Jarvis took 352 faceoffs this year and had a 44% while playing wing. Byfield took 90 and only won 45% while he’s supposed to be a natural C (I know he plays wing).

 

[newfy]

Raymond is around that 4-8 spot on most lists… that’s pretty fair

Its not really though lol. Any list that has him dropping is pretty dumb at this point.

He just had a better season than Stutzle, literally this season. I like Lafreniere a lot, but Raymond playing with Panarin/Trochek this season? It wouldnt be that close right now. Jarvis, another winger, jumping 10 spots ahead of him after a season where Raymond outscored him due to a good first round of the playoffs on one of the best teams in the league also is stupid. Even Byfield, I see how the size/skill combo is enticing, but this season alone Raymond had more goals than Byfield has had in his entire 179 game career, while Byfield has been playing as a winger.

Youre talking about a guy with the draft pedigree going 4th overall, is second from the draft in points, 4 goals out of second in the draft (60 less GP than Laffy) and is also coming off the most impressive season for a forward in this draft just this past year... saying its pretty fair for him to potentially fall 4 spots is dumb

 

[CowbellConray]

Its not really though lol. Any list that has him dropping is pretty dumb at this point.

He just had a better season than Stutzle, literally this season. I like Lafreniere a lot, but Raymond playing with Panarin/Trochek this season? It wouldnt be that close right now. Jarvis, another winger, jumping 10 spots ahead of him after a season where Raymond outscored him due to a good first round of the playoffs on one of the best teams in the league also is stupid. Even Byfield, I see how the size/skill combo is enticing, but this season alone Raymond had more goals than Byfield has had in his entire 179 game career, while Byfield has been playing as a winger.

Youre talking about a guy with the draft pedigree going 4th overall, is second from the draft in points, 4 goals out of second in the draft (60 less GP than Laffy) and is also coming off the most impressive season for a forward in this draft just this past year... saying its pretty fair for him to potentially fall 4 spots is dumb

I don’t see any argument for Raymond, a pure winger, being ahead of Sanderson or Stutzle. So that’s at best 3rd overall

The , you look at projectability, production, position. Let’s be clear, wingers are the least impactful postion on the ice. They take the easiest defensive assignments, don’t take face offs, and don’t get killed if their defensive game is lacking.

By field, while being a 50 point player this year, is a project able top line center with ppg game potential. That’s a HUGE team need. Go ahead and make the poll if you want, but I’d wager 85% of people would take byfield going forward rather than Raymond. So that moves him to 4th.

Then you have the cluster of wingers, who have all shown different things. Raymond has the regular season success, Jarvis has the two way game and postseason production, laf has the crazy playoffs he is on and his decent success this year. A team may go for any three of those guys. That puts Raymond somewhere between 4th and 6th.

Then, bring in Faber who had a great year, and you could MAYBE see someone wanting a strong two way D over a good winger

 

[Aladyyn]

No I don't but he doesn't have the same elite upside. And he doesn't play center or have a 39 goal 90 point season.


Good list, Byfield will end up top 3 though. Way linger development curve similar upside to Stutzle

It's still really early and lots can change, I can definitely see Byfield leapfrogging over the wingers in this class (also homer take but Quinn will be the best of those if he can avoid any more big injuries)

 

[biturbo19]

Even if that 'Big C' ends up a borderline 2nd/3rd liner over a 1st line winger?

That said I do agree TS is likely the most skilled of the bunch and would've been drafted by Yzerman if he was available.

Calling Byfield a big "Center" requires a lot of quotation marks and asterisks and projection at this point, for me at least. Him finally starting to find his footing has been in large part...essentially as a winger to Kopitar. I haven't seen anything yet that has me particularly convinced he's going to be a long-term Top-6 "Center". Much less a quality Top Line Center. So yeah...we're talking about a dynamic, play driving top line winger vs a Top-6W who is bigger and might still be a Center but i wouldn't count on it.

He's still bigger, and he'll always have that. But the Center/Winger thing is still very much up in the air there for me. I'm more inclined to withhold that "advantage" in value until i'm more convinced it's going to be a firm thing through most of his career to come.


There's definitely still a premium element to size, but there's also such a huge gulf between the dynamic offensive play-driving skill between Byfield and Raymond in what i've seen. Byfield has improved a lot...but he's got an absolute ton of ground to make up.


That's where for me, Raymond has to be in the Top-5...even if smallish wingers don't carry the same "premium" value. But then...i also don't have Byfield in my Top-5. More like...scratching and clawing for Top-10. If they're all going to be wingers (and i think they are, despite Mercer and Byfield still having at least a smidge of a longshot chance to stick as a Center long-term)...i don't think i'd take Byfield over any of Mercer, Lafreniere (who are also "big wingers") or even Jarvis tbh.

 

[bert]

Brother his underlying defensive stats were miles ahead of Byfield and Laf. He was top 10 in defensive rating this year and 8th in selke voting. Laf doesn’t even have good underlying defensive numbers. Also, Jarvis took 352 faceoffs this year and had a 44% while playing wing. Byfield took 90 and only won 45% while he’s supposed to be a natural C (I know he plays wing).

It was a reference to him being a better defensive player than Mark Stone.

Its about projecting and development. Samsonov won the calder over Joe Thornton we all know how that turned out. Big guys power guys take longer.

Love Jarvis as a player he is going to be really good for a long time and could very well be better than both Laf and Byfield. But those players total packages have more elite upside. Especially byfield.

It's still really early and lots can change, I can definitely see Byfield leapfrogging over the wingers in this class (also homer take but Quinn will be the best of those if he can avoid any more big injuries)

Im a big fan of Quinn, he has a very elite skiillset injuries have been brutal though.

 

[newfy]

I don’t see any argument for Raymond, a pure winger, being ahead of Sanderson or Stutzle. So that’s at best 3rd overall

The , you look at projectability, production, position. Let’s be clear, wingers are the least impactful postion on the ice. They take the easiest defensive assignments, don’t take face offs, and don’t get killed if their defensive game is lacking.

By field, while being a 50 point player this year, is a project able top line center with ppg game potential. That’s a HUGE team need. Go ahead and make the poll if you want, but I’d wager 85% of people would take byfield going forward rather than Raymond. So that moves him to 4th.

Then you have the cluster of wingers, who have all shown different things. Raymond has the regular season success, Jarvis has the two way game and postseason production, laf has the crazy playoffs he is on and his decent success this year. A team may go for any three of those guys. That puts Raymond somewhere between 4th and 6th.

Then, bring in Faber who had a great year, and you could MAYBE see someone wanting a strong two way D over a good winger

I dont really have an issue with Stutzle or Sanderson above him, even if Raymond was better than Stutzle this year. The issue I have is guys saying Jarvis can jump 10 spots ahead of him as a winger because he had a good first round of the playoffs on a great team while Raymond still outscored him this season.

Saying Byfield should hold his spot ahead of him because he finally had a season he didnt look like a bust because he got moved to the wing. A guy who Raymond had more goals than this season than Byfield does in his career. If you want to call Byfield a point per game center down the road at this point, you can easily say Raymond projects as a 100 point, 40 goal winger...

Lafreniere having a decent season and good playoff run playing with Panarin (once again, as a winger), has ~30 less points and the same amount of goals as Raymond in 60 more career games. But he holds his spot as a winger because of a 14 game sample with a top 5 or 6 player in the game on his line. Raymonds offensive game with Panarin this season and he pretty easily outdoes what Lafreniere does, and I say that as a guy that like Lafreniere.

Honestly using the playoffs as justification for anything is pretty stupid right now. Jarvis has points in 5 games total this playoffs, 2 points in his 6 games in the second round. Youre talking guys with 230+ game sample sizes and saying Jarvis' game translates to the playoffs because of a good 5 games against the Islanders in the first round basically.

Raymond pretty easily has the best case for third overall in this draft class right now (maybe 2nd depending on opinion of Sanderson), but you want to say people having him 8th is normal, its not