Prospect Info: 2020 Draft #111 - Mitchell Miller (RHD) [Mod Warning post #312]

[TheLegend]

This has to be the most discussion ever generated by a prospect with a one in a hundred chance of playing a single minute in the NHL. Dude’s going to have an unremarkable career in second rate leagues, before disappearing into wage-slavery like the rest of us.

Still holding Blake Wheeler's beer??

Oh wait.... you also said one in a hundred chance of making it.

 

[CLW]

There is no excuse for basic lack of common sense on part of those who made the draft list and were around the draft table. They can't use simple mindedness (I'm only a scout, I didn know no better) as an excuse. I'm not very smart but I saw instantly, as soon as I heard about his history, that drafting Miller was NOT a good idea, and that was without knowing the full details - just the basics of the story.

And as I linked non-NHL amateur scouts were openly talking about the Miller situation and speculating if he would get drafted before the draft. That the Coyotes out of all teams would be so stupid, after all that happened under Chayka, to invite more controversy around this draft just beggars belief really.

 

[rt]

A court mandated apology isn't an actual apology. It certainly doesn't make up for what he did in any way. I think even 14 year olds understand that.



I mean, you're straight up calling the victim a liar here. If he feels Miller hasn't shown remorse or offered an appropriate apology, who are you to say otherwise? Miller did the bare minimum assigned by the court. This looks really weird given you posted this earlier:





Ya don't say.

No I’m not calling them a liar. They are expressing now that they weren’t satisfied with the apology they received. Miller doesn’t have a time machine. So...

I feel my comments there are still consistent. If I saw the McKie kid give an impact statement, and the MCs seemed receptive, I’d absolutely try to arrange one for Miller too.

But what’s the context? McKie isn’t viewed more positively by the victims solely for his statement. It’s due mostly to a previous friendship with IMC.

It’s possible and not unlikely that the previous personal relationship played a role not only in McKie’s feeling welcome to give the apology statement but in the MCs receptiveness to that statement. These factors may not apply to Miller. Who was, it seems, exclusively in IMCs life simply to torture him.

But I already said all of that in the part of my post you intentionally cut out to quote just the bit that if framed properly makes me seem like I’m waffling. Which I’m not.

 

[rt]

Was this kid even that good that it was worth the risk? A 5’10 defenceman with pretty average USHL stats

He was the top scoring 18 year old D in the USHL. And it was due to an extremely strong late season push statistically. So the projection is strong. Especially given he played forward until his 15 year old season. And that he was a top defenseman at the Ivan Hlinka-Gretzky tournament.

If he wasn’t complete monster, he’d likely have been a 2nd rounder. Lots of upside for a 2nd rounder. But even 2nd rounders are crapshoots anyhow.

 

[XX]

But I already said all of that in the part of my post you intentionally cut out to quote just the bit that if framed properly makes me seem like I’m waffling. Which I’m not.

You can't acknowledge that yes, IMC is owed an actual apology while also saying yes, Miller "apologized" so people dunking on him are just being emotional and stupid. That doesn't compute.

I'll simplify since you didn't comment: Do you feel the court mandated apology is/was enough? (Counting the past 4 years of no further action)

 

[rt]

There is no excuse for basic lack of common sense on part of those who made the draft list and were around the draft table. They can't use simple mindedness (I'm only a scout, I didn know no better) as an excuse. I'm not very smart but I saw instantly, as soon as I heard about his history, that drafting Miller was NOT a good idea, and that was without knowing the full details - just the basics of the story.

And as I linked non-NHL amateur scouts were openly talking about the Miller situation and speculating if he would get drafted before the draft. That the Coyotes out of all teams would be so stupid, after all that happened under Chayka, to invite more controversy around this draft just beggars belief really.

I hear you. I see your point. But I think the fact that it was the Coyotes really complicates things in multiple ways.

There’s the obvious component of the Coyotes being a complete mess publicly. Adding a controversial selection to that mess is highly questionable. But I’m not sure how plugged in scouts are to that. It’s not like they live in Arizona or watch very many Coyotes games. They aren’t fans.

Then there’s another component of this being special to Arizona. The lack of picks until #111 and the pressure that adds to the staff. I think this is bound to be a much more influential factor than the other Arizona-specific factor. Especially for scouts.

I think it’s the GM who really needs to weigh those things against eachother and make the final decision. It makes sense to me that the scouts used scout logic.

 

[CLW]

Miller is also under a court order not to have contact with any of them.

Even if he wanted to now, he can't without ending up in jail for contempt.

Catch 22.

No contact is the rule when you are dealing with a psychopath. If you have ever been unfortunate enough to be in close contact to one for an extended period of time you know why. No contact is definitely my personal rule. I've also seen it used in a professional setting working with victims. There's a reason why I exploded as soon as I realized what we had drafted.

 

[CLW]

I hear you. I see your point. But I think the fact that it was the Coyotes really complicates things in multiple ways.

There’s the obvious component of the Coyotes being a complete mess publicly. Adding a controversial selection to that mess is highly questionable. But I’m not sure how plugged in scouts are to that. It’s not like they live in Arizona or watch very many Coyotes games. They aren’t fans.

Then there’s another component of this being special to Arizona. The lack of picks until #111 and the pressure that adds to the staff. I think this is bound to be a much more influential factor than the other Arizona-specific factor. Especially for scouts.

I think it’s the GM who really needs to weigh those things against eachother and make the final decision. It makes sense to me that the scouts used scout logic.

I'm not saying it's impossible they used 'scout logic'. It's just so utterly tone deaf on many levels.

If we get a new story about the scouts using 'scout logic' and the leadership knowing nothing and everyone being innocent little lambs that made a simply mistake.... I don't think I'll buy that, sorry.

 

[rt]

You can't acknowledge that yes, IMC is owed an actual apology while also saying yes, Miller "apologized" so people dunking on him are just being emotional and stupid. That doesn't compute.

I'll simplify since you didn't comment: Do you feel the court mandated apology is/was enough? (Counting the past 4 years of no further action)

I’m saying it’s not factually correct to say “he never apologized”. For whatever reason, the court decided that an apology letter should be written. And it was. So the fact is that Mitchell apologized to the MCs. That’s a fact. It seems like I’m being pedantic but it’s only a reaction to how many people are continuing to claim that no apology of any kind was given or received. Which is misinformation and it’s wildly popular and untrue.

That’s not emotional to me. It’s the opposite it’s the cold, logical interpretation. If I wanted to get more emotional, I’d say that’s a f***ing cop out and the entire Miller family should have been begging for a chance to apologize in person and trying to undue any small bit of harm Mitchell had done to Isaiah.

To be further emotional about it, I’d say hell no it’s not enough. Obviously it’s not enough. That’s plain to see based on the statements from the MCs. They’ve been holding onto the lack of a bonafide apology for four years, and it’s made their pain worse not better. Which is awful.

But did the Miller’s know that before this week? I. Don’t. Know. Neither does anyone else other than the Millers. Also, were the MCs actually as open to this four years ago as they are today? Are they really remembering that emotionally charged period accurately. The way the emails during the soccer choke-out go, it wouldn’t surprise me if they didn’t make their desire or even openness to further emotional restitution know. Or even if they made it seem as though the opposite were true.

Am I saying it’s their fault? Absolutely f***ing not. The Miller’s should have fought hard for an opportunity to make it right, or make it at least a little bit less wrong. I don’t know if they did try. If they didn’t, I don’t know why. Was it malice or misunderstanding? How the f*** would I know? You don’t either. Nobody but the Millers knows.

 

[rt]

I'm not saying it's impossible they used 'scout logic'. It's just so utterly tone deaf on many levels.

If we get a new story about the scouts using 'scout logic' and the leadership knowing nothing and everyone being innocent little lambs that made a simply mistake.... I don't think I'll buy that, sorry.

You don’t have to buy it because that ain’t what I’m selling.

What I’m saying is whether or not the public perception of the Coyotes is that they’re “a joke” is bound to be of little relevance to the scouting team.

What’s bound to be much more relevant is getting a 2nd round talent in the 4th and gambling on the information you have gathered, and your professional experience, and your gut instinct that this kid is past all the bullshit.

If the scouts felt strongly that his character is all better now, and his hockey ability is 50 spots ahead of the next guy on the list, then the scouts are going to make that pick. And they are not going to give two shits or a f*** what Twitter has to say about it.

It’s why it’s good to have a General Manager around.

 

[CLW]

A good GM is needed.

Scouts are supposed to be relatively smart people, with a basic understanding of human nature and psychology among other things. Here we have a case where a judge basically slapped a huge PSYCHO warning on a guy, and none of our scouts picked up on that?

If so those guys have no business being scouts for the Coyotes or any team. It's the job of scouts to weed OUT those guys.

 

[rt]

A good GM is needed.

Scouts are supposed to be relatively smart people, with a basic understanding of human nature and psychology among other things. Here we have a case where a judge basically slapped a huge PSYCHO warning on a guy, and none of our scouts picked up on that?

If so those guys have no business being scouts for the Coyotes or any team. It's the job of scouts to weed OUT those guys.

I think it’s more likely the scouts are more correct about Miller than that judge. I think the scouts talked to dozens of trusted sources that spent 100s of hours with Miller. Not a judge who had hearings about torturing another 14 year old, 4 years ago.

You’re assuming Miller was a bad pick for reasons other than public relations. I’m not convinced of that at all.

 

[CLW]

I'm not assuming anything. I know what a psychopath is. That's why I am opposed to drafting him in the first place. That it also was a boneheaded move for other reasons is just icing on the cake.

Psychopaths often have no problem appearing normal, they are often very charming and popular. I have no problem believing he was/is a popular team mate etc.

The Mask of Sanity by Dr. Hervey Cleckley is a classic study. They are good at keeping a social mask, it's what's behind that mask that is the problem.

 

[XX]

I’m saying it’s not factually correct to say “he never apologized”. For whatever reason, the court decided that an apology letter should be written. And it was. So the fact is that Mitchell apologized to the MCs. That’s a fact. It seems like I’m being pedantic but it’s only a reaction to how many people are continuing to claim that no apology of any kind was given or received. Which is misinformation and it’s wildly popular and untrue.

I feel like this part is a colossal waste of time and everyone should move past it. It would save a lot of energy.

Most people are going to be aware that he gave the token court ordered apology. The problem for most (myself included) is that he hasn't shown any real remorse or growth on record since. There's no real excuse for that when you really look at it. If this whole thing is a test of character, Miller doesn't pass at this moment. I hope the kid grows but that's not the Coyotes' problem to solve anymore.

Normally there are some warm stories out there about how someone is working hard to shed that image but there's really nothing with this kid beyond his 'sorry I got caught' apology letter to teams. Most of them didn't buy it. I'm not buying it. For me, it ends there.

... The Miller’s should have fought hard for an opportunity to make it right, or make it at least a little bit less wrong. I don’t know if they did try. If they didn’t, I don’t know why. Was it malice or misunderstanding? How the f*** would I know? You don’t either. Nobody but the Millers knows.

This story has been out there and isn't exactly a secret. There was an opportunity for the Miller family to do what they could to make things right once the spotlight was on Mitchell and Isiah. They didn't. I'm not seeing this chaotic misunderstanding angle. I'm not seeing the MC's as unreceptive 'justice' seekers. I think both of those angles are unreasonable, especially the latter as it unfairly burdens the family of the victim. This clearly could have been mediated had the Miller camp really wanted it. If it were my son, you better believe I'd be moving heaven and earth to get him to own up to his actions and to make what small amount of peace is possible with his victim and the family. That would only be the beginning.

I guess that's where we diverge - I think it's on the abuser to make things right, to make every effort, and he clearly hasn't. I'm thrilled Miller is gone, given that. I don't see a kid being unfairly railroaded at all. I see a stupid organization that thought they were smarter than they really are. I see a family unfairly being dragged through social media after their son was already a victim that still hasn't gotten a small measure of peace. I see an unapologetic 'support' group circling the wagons around a bully a judge noted as having no remorse, hoping for this to all go away.

There are a lot of complicated situations in life but this isn't one for me. The Coyotes were 31 flavors of stupid but eventually ended up at the right conclusion. YMMV.

 

[SotasicA]

I feel like this board could run the team better...for cheaper. Very frustrating to be a fan of this organization.

If HFBoards Polls -section were to manage an NHL franchise

 

[MIGs Dog]

Unqualified for the job. I previously criticized him for no relevant experience and only being hired because he's friends with the owner.

I think the best rebuttal anyone here came up with was that he was a hockey fan in college and later a Sharks fan...

Hired to get a stadium deal done...no hockey acumen required.

 

[TheLegend]

No contact is the rule when you are dealing with a psychopath. If you have ever been unfortunate enough to be in close contact to one for an extended period of time you know why. No contact is definitely my personal rule. I've also seen it used in a professional setting working with victims. There's a reason why I exploded as soon as I realized what we had drafted.

My stepson has a non-contact order against him now and he's no psychopath. I've had to deal with it for the past two years so I know for which I'm talking about.

You obviously do not know how easy it is to get one slapped on you, nor do you realize how easy it is that a person who gets one can still end up in jail without any fault of his own.

It's been said the mother claimed Miller was still intimidating her son two years after. So why didn't she turn him in?? Depending upon the actual terms of the order even the simple act of skating by the house (according to the story which is circulating) could have been considered a breach of the order.

 

[Albatros]

It's been said the mother claimed Miller was still intimidating her son two years after. So why didn't she turn him in?? Depending upon the actual terms of the order even the simple act of skating by the house (according to the story which is circulating) could have been considered a breach of the order.

Fighting for justice is very consuming for the victims, certainly for a mother of 57 children. If Miller was still looking for ways to intimidate them for revenge as it seems, then it's unlikely that it would have stopped had they reported him for skating outside their house.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Bux7phx:

Yeah, the only concern that I would have on that is if we get a 2020 pick and the decision on Jankowski's part is not the one Armstrong would have made. Again, I do not know how much these two can narrow a list down, as I thought Armstrong would be excluded from all activity. The worst thing we could do is wind up with a player that Armstrong was lower on, because then most trades would already start off on the wrong foot. The other team would get the player they want from us, and we get the pick we like, but if the player chosen doesn't mesh with BA's thoughts, it puts us in a worse position from the start.

I think trades may hold on to 2021 picks, while also getting some prospects who are coming into their own in the NHL. Go for the more ready players now and save picks for tlnext year's draft when the value proposition comes around.​

​

rt: Armstrong isn’t narrowing any list down. He’s not going to say a single word to anyone about any 2020 eligible player. But he just hired Jankowski because he trusts him. A lot more than he trusted the guy he just fired. Obviously he feels better about giving 2020 picks to Jankowski than he would have acquiring picks and just going off the list of the guys he just shit canned.

This was quite literally from the 1st day of draft thread. Sorry that I only copied the quote without more context behind.

People were discussing what happens if we made a trade and acquired picks before the 4th round. Would the list that Armstrong or Plankowski or Jankowski have include reaches? I understand that Armstrong could not be a part of this draft. But I also think this was exactly what I was concerned about. Would there be a situation where we shoot ourselves in the foot because we took a guy earlier than expected that turns out to be the wrong pick, relative to what is out there? Turns out, we did exactly that.

The funny thing is, we didn't need to deal with other teams to then take a player at the wrong time.

Suddenly, I want the scouting department to be turned over.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

It’s pretty simple, we all have done dumb and regrettable things. Everybody deserves a second chance and even a third but that only comes via atonement. It wasn’t this one incident, He tortured this poor kid throughout school when he should have been protecting him and then (reading the police reports) he and his family never really showed contrition and took accountability (except when it came to potential employers). If he learned anything from this as he writes in his letter to The clubs, he should have made things right with the family first and foremost. He never did and now wants a second chance on draft eve (what a coincidence). The other kid had it right, he owned it and then personally made things better and will be a better person for it. This Miller smells like a con job, their focus is PR and not making things right.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I bet Mureulo thought that owning a pro sports team would be fun

 

[Jakey53]

Just shows how dumb it was to make him the pick in the first place. Unfathomably stupid.

Shows how dumb it is for the courts not to protect minors.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I think it’s more likely the scouts are more correct about Miller than that judge. I think the scouts talked to dozens of trusted sources that spent 100s of hours with Miller. Not a judge who had hearings about torturing another 14 year old, 4 years ago.

You’re assuming Miller was a bad pick for reasons other than public relations. I’m not convinced of that at all.

They talked to everyone except maybe the family and kid he abused, noice work Columbo.

 

[Jakey53]

What a weak and pathetic solution. Extraordinarily cowardly display. Zero backbone, and just no resolve, whatsoever.

He said this like 3 days ago:
Coyotes president and CEO Xavier Gutierrez said the team did not run away from selecting Miller.

"Our fundamental mission is to ensure a safe environment -- whether in schools, in our community, in hockey rinks, or in the workplace -- to be free of bullying and racism. When we first learned of Mitchell's story, it would have been easy for us to dismiss him -- many teams did. Instead, we felt it was our responsibility to be a part of the solution in a real way -- not just saying and doing the right things ourselves but ensuring that others are too.

"Given our priorities on diversity and inclusion, we believe that we are in the best position to guide Mitchell into becoming a leader for this cause and preventing bullying and racism now and in the future. As an organization, we have made our expectations very clear to him. We are willing to work with Mitchell and put in the time, effort, and energy and provide him with the necessary resources and platform to confront bullying and racism. This isn't a story about excuses or justifications. It's a story about reflection, growth, and community impact. A true leader finds ways for every person to contribute to the solution. We all need to be a part of the solution."

Gutierrez is a member of the league's Executive Inclusion Council, which is charged with fighting racism and increasing diversity in hockey.

—-
^ so basically they're willing to be brave, fight the good fight, rescue and rehabilitate this boy, and be the change they want to see in society ... UNLESSSSSSSS ... people criticize them. If they're criticized, they'll immediately throw all of that out the window and capitulate.

I agree. BA hired his guy, supports him, then puts a knife in his back. BA talks a big game, just like RT. What a pair. Can we get DM and DT back. Can we somehow go back in time, before the Coyotes went into BK and start over.

 

[Jakey53]

Renouncing the pick only demonstrates that not only are you stupid, but you are also weak and exclusively self-serving in the extreme.

This franchise has been just a cascade of humiliation. Just an avalanche of embarrassment.

I honestly think this decision to renounce this pick is the most embarrassing thing that this franchise has ever done. And it's REALLY stiff competition. This is maybe the most embarrassing thing I can think of off the top of my head that any major pro sports franchise has ever done.

Complete lack of back-bone. Absolutely no principles. Zero integrity. Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. I don't question the leadership ability of the men running this team. I question the manhood of the "men" running this team.

Exactly. Strike one against BA.