Prospect Info: 2020 Draft #111 - Mitchell Miller (RHD) [Mod Warning post #312]

[KG]

Every Christian knows forgiveness requires repentance, of which an apology seemingly would be apart of.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I would find it delusional to forgive someone who evidently isn't sorry.

And you would not find peace.

 

[IceColdBear]

The spotlight tends to shake new information loose and let teams know just how dumb something they are doing really is. It's entirely possible they came across new information, talked to people, had an internal revolt over the pick, got unsolicited messages from respected hockey people telling them bad things about Miller and/or to cut bait. Things can change rapidly. If Doaner is suddenly not hot to join the organization and is asking hard questions, that's an example of a reality check.

XG went to bat for his guys, same as BA. You probably shouldn't trust corporate speak coming from a hand picked private equity guy that knows f*** all about hockey to begin with. They both got humbled pretty hard. That can be a good thing in the long run. XG in particular probably needed this.

Having Miller around was always going to be a massive distraction. It is the opposite of what BA has been preaching. It is the opposite of what the organization talks about publicly. The why and how of his selection is the most important thing now that they apologized to the family. Someone has some explaining to do. I eagerly await the fallout.

There are two possible explanations, neither of which are good.

Clearly the scouts thought he was the best player available, and took him.

They either knew a bit about this incident but didn't dig deep enough, assuming it was general "character issues" that many prospects have, or they knew the full story and did not care.

Both possible explanations are a bad look.

What really makes them look bad, imo, was their talk about how they knew about the issues and wanted to help mould him into a good person (clear bullshit - they just wanted a good hockey player), only to cut ties with him a few days later. If you really want to help groom his character, why cut him?

They've backed themselves in to a corner where it looks like they knew about it, didn't care, and cut ties with him purely for PR reasons.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I cannot stress enough how much victim-shaming sucks the credibility from your position.

I don’t believe I have shamed the victims here.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Every Christian knows forgiveness requires repentance, of which an apology seemingly would be apart of.

That is wholly incorrect. No pun intended... well, maybe.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Well, if we're going to start debating different Christian theologies (grace versus works, the true nature of repentance, and so forth), then I'm bowing out. I spent 30 years sucked into that quagmire before extricating myself and I have no desire to relitigate God on a hockey forum.

 

[KG]

Well, if we're going to start debating different Christian theologies (grace versus works, the true nature of repentance, and so forth), then I'm bowing out. I spent 30 years sucked into that quagmire before extricating myself and I have no desire to relitigate God on a hockey forum.

But we re-litigate every other topic on here

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Good night all. This has not been a good day for all parties involved and it’s a damn shame.

 

[Mosby]

Process was ugly and stupid but we got to where we need to be, that being Miller is no longer associated with the organization.

 

[CLW]

Redemption is for Miller, we were speaking of the family, forgiveness is for and on them. The abuser is the sinner, not the abused.

MILLER has not talked to them. When will you understand? Noone should give forgiveness if it is not sincere. Miller has never asked the victim or his family for forgiveness like his accomplice did. The family was able to forgive the accomplice because they found him sincere in his regret and in possession of a human heart. Through forgiveness the family was able to move on.

Miller on the other hand just showed more cruelty and sadism instead and rubbed his sociopathy in the faces of the family. You cannot forgive that, forgiving a sociopath is pointless, they are unable to feel genuine remorse. At best you can only accept that they are not wired right and they lack an essential capacity crucial to a human being.

Miller is STILL abusing his victims. His mere existence is abusive as long as he hasn't apologized and shown he is capable of human emotions such as regret.

 

[XX]

Process was ugly and stupid but we got to where we need to be, that being Miller is no longer associated with the organization.

If this stupid shit is what finally gets the organization on the straight and narrow, it will have been possibly the best use of a 4th round pick ever (sorry Yands). Only Miller can make things right with his victim.

 

[Sinurgy]

I just wanted to say there is no god, Mitchell Miller is 100% responsible for his own situation and being a Coyote fan might be one of the most futile things a person can do. That is all.

 

[rt]

The spotlight tends to shake new information loose and let teams know just how dumb something they are doing really is. It's entirely possible they came across new information, talked to people, had an internal revolt over the pick, got unsolicited messages from respected hockey people telling them bad things about Miller and/or to cut bait. Things can change rapidly. If Doaner is suddenly not hot to join the organization and is asking hard questions, that's an example of a reality check.

XG went to bat for his guys, same as BA. You probably shouldn't trust corporate speak coming from a hand picked private equity guy that knows f*** all about hockey to begin with. They both got humbled pretty hard. That can be a good thing in the long run. XG in particular probably needed this.

Having Miller around was always going to be a massive distraction. It is the opposite of what BA has been preaching. It is the opposite of what the organization talks about publicly. The why and how of his selection is the most important thing now that they apologized to the family. Someone has some explaining to do. I eagerly await the fallout.

Good point about XG being humbled. Hopefully that helps him to avoid trying to outfox the entire hockey world in the future. But I don’t really care. He’s got zero credibility in my eyes. Not that it matters. And as you said, he knows f*** all about hockey. He should talk about it directly less often.

As for the witch-hunt for the guilty party, I’m not with you there. In my mind scouts use the info they have about players to make picks. The GM is the one who needs to think about how ownership, media, fans, and PR, etc will deal with things. We didn’t have a GM in the room.

If Jankowski, Sullivan and Walker we’re convinced Miller turned his life around and was a great value pick at #111 then I’m inclined to agree. Their job is to identify that. All the other bull shit is the GM’s job.

There’s still a 50% chance in my mind that Miller has turned it around and is a good kid now. Going through Honey Baked, Cedar Rapids, USA Hockey, Tri-City and into NoDak, spending time away from family, the kids back home and the small town bullshit, as he grew and matured from 14 to 18 while living in different towns in different states with different billets, schools, teachers, friends, teammates, coaches, trainers, etc., makes that perfectly possible.

It’s not outlandish that he was hands down the best player on the board at #111 and a fantastic pick not just from a talent perspective but even from a character and cultural perspective at this point. Not likely but possible.

Ultimately, the problem was that he was a political time bomb. Thats executive stuff, not scout stuff.

If Tampa or St. Louis or Washington or Boston picked him, I’d be defending their decision to do so.

 

[XX]

There’s still a 50% chance in my mind that Miller has turned it around and is a good kid now.

I don't know why you keep going down the "well there's nothing on record that's bad in those 4 years..." rabbit hole. When other teams did their homework, it obviously included talking to those people. They would know him best, and would be the most relevant people to talk about who he is now as a person and player. A third of the league put him on their DND lists. Even the Ken Campbell article linked mentioned a team where every single one of their U.S. scouts wanted nothing to do with the player.

You need to account for the possibility that he isn't reformed. Given his reluctance to talk about this with teams (many felt he was not "forthcoming" in interviews), I do not know how you go about giving him the benefit of the doubt. I also don't know how you cancel out what JMC has said either. To pretend that he's squeaky clean, reformed, and XG is just a coward seems like your own personal narrative rather than established reality.

How the team came to look the other way is important. It doesn't imply Miller is a piece of shit. He had question marks. We need to find out what information they had and how they chose to use it. If we're being really honest, the Coyotes not doing their homework and having big gaps in either strategy or understanding (or both) is a very likely scenario, given the chaos of the transition period.

If Tampa or St. Louis or Washington or Boston picked him, I’d be defending their decision to do so.

If Miller had done more than the court mandated bare minimum the past four years, I'd probably be defending him too. He didn't, so I'm thrilled he is gone.

 

[AJ171181]

One pick... at 111 ... and then....

No words.

 

[rt]

I don't know why you keep going down the "well there's nothing on record that's bad in those 4 years..." rabbit hole. When other teams did their homework, it obviously included talking to those people. They would know him best, and would be the most relevant people to talk about who he is now as a person and player. A third of the league put him on their DND lists. Even the Ken Campbell article linked mentioned a team where every single one of their U.S. scouts wanted nothing to do with the player.

You need to account for the possibility that he isn't reformed. Given his reluctance to talk about this with teams (many felt he was not "forthcoming" in interviews), I do not know how you go about giving him the benefit of the doubt. I also don't know how you cancel out what JMC has said either. To pretend that he's squeaky clean, reformed, and XG is just a coward seems like your own personal narrative rather than established reality.

How the team came to look the other way is important. It doesn't imply Miller is a piece of shit. He had question marks. We need to find out what information they had and how they chose to use it. If we're being really honest, the Coyotes not doing their homework and having big gaps in either strategy or understanding (or both) is a very likely scenario, given the chaos of the transition period.



If Miller had done more than the court mandated bare minimum the past four years, I'd probably be defending him too. He didn't, so I'm thrilled he is gone.

I don’t need to account for the possibility that he isn’t reformed because I’ve stated in almost every post in this thread that there’s as good a chance as not that be isn’t. I haven’t moved from that. I’ve been consistent in repeating over and over and over again that it’s at least 50/50 that he’s still a scumbag and all of the rehabilitation claims are self serving and performative. You keeping pretending I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt. I’ve never given him the benefit of the doubt.

We also don’t know WHY a 3rd of them league had him DND. How many of those 10 teams had him DND exclusively for events prior to 4/25/16? We don’t know. Many of them were likely DND simply for the PR nightmare, regardless of any personal progress.

Just like I’d have been if I were running the Coyotes draft table. I wouldn’t have drafted him purely because of optics. I wouldn’t even care to check on what he’s done to progress from spring of 2016. I wouldn’t care if I’m at the Yotes draft table.

I don’t believe that XG learned brand-new disqualifying information today that he didn’t Have access to on Monday. I expect the only thing that changed is his nerve and which variety of bullshit he was trying to sell.

 

[XX]

I’ve been consistent in repeating over and over and over again that it’s at least 50/50 that he’s still a scumbag and all of the rehabilitation claims are self serving and performative.

From today's article:

Isaiah Meyer-Crothers said all he ever wanted was an apology from Miller.

Miller couldn't bring himself to apologize.

Is that still 50/50 for you?

 

[Byron Bitz]

I can’t believe the top pick is now a 5th rounder. The whole situation around the draft this year is infuriating, The cheating, the overly harsh punishment the Nhl handed down, the Miller pick...one of the most disastrous drafts in NHL history.

 

[rt]

From today's article:


Miller couldn't bring himself to apologize.

Is that still 50/50 for you?

Yes. It’s still 50/50. He did apologize. Then he moved to Detroit. He was 14.

Someone desiring a in-person, face-to-face apology from a tormentor is absolutely not a foregone conclusion. And it’s a desire not always openly expressed. It has been now. Was it always?

I can think of a couple of people in my past who truly wronged me. Hurt me deeply and made me feel “victimized”. I would never, under any circumstances want to endure an in-person apology or any form of apology from them. Not at all.

If his lawyer said, “Just write the letter. Don’t contact them again. It’s a bad situation and a liability. Just write the letter and go to Detroit” 1) I’m not sure the lawyer is wrong and 2) He’s 14 and hadn’t yet started the “growth”. So even if he says, “yeah okay, f*** it. I’m going to Mo-Town”. Maybe he grew up after he got there. I don’t know. None of us do.

Am I saying that’s what happened? Nope. Am I saying that’s “probably” what happened? Nope. I’m saying it’s as good a chance as not. Could be either way or anything in between.

I’m saying people who jump in online and say “He never apologized or showed any remorse of any kind” are just making that up. Minimizing what he did as “boys will be boys” or completely letting him off the hook because he was 14 is also dumb. People are too emotional about this and are filling in enormous contextual gaps with personal narratives.

 

[rt]

I can’t believe the top pick is now a 5th rounder. The whole situation around the draft this year is infuriating, The cheating, the overly harsh punishment the Nhl handed down, the Miller pick...one of the most disastrous drafts in NHL history.

At least Taylor Hall is a Buffalo Sabre and we got to witness the most humiliating playoff series in franchise history. All worth it!!!

 

[TheLegend]

MILLER has not talked to them.

Miller is also under a court order not to have contact with any of them.

Even if he wanted to now, he can't without ending up in jail for contempt.

Catch 22.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Was this kid even that good that it was worth the risk? A 5’10 defenceman with pretty average USHL stats

 

[XX]

Yes. It’s still 50/50. He did apologize.

A court mandated apology isn't an actual apology. It certainly doesn't make up for what he did in any way. I think even 14 year olds understand that.

I’m saying people who jump in online and say “He never apologized or showed any remorse of any kind” are just making that up.

I mean, you're straight up calling the victim a liar here. If he feels Miller hasn't shown remorse or offered an appropriate apology, who are you to say otherwise? Miller did the bare minimum assigned by the court. This looks really weird given you posted this earlier:

It's a big mistake not to make an effort to arrange an apology if the victim might be open to receiving one.

More than likely, the Millers really f***ed up by not attempting to get this taken care of.

The MC family is certainly owed an in-person apology from the Miller family. No doubt about that.

People are too emotional about this and are filling in enormous contextual gaps with personal narratives.

Ya don't say.

 

[Murf]

This has to be the most discussion ever generated by a prospect with a one in a hundred chance of playing a single minute in the NHL. Dude’s going to have an unremarkable career in second rate leagues, before disappearing into wage-slavery like the rest of us.

 

[TheLegend]

Was this kid even that good that it was worth the risk? A 5’10 defenceman with pretty average USHL stats

Could be wrong, but I kept hearing he could have gone as high as the second round if it wasn't for the juvenile conviction. He may be 5' 10'. But he's also 190+ lbs. AND a right hand shot.