Prospect Info: 2020 Draft #111 - Mitchell Miller (RHD) [Mod Warning post #312]

[rt]

I think you're somewhat mischaracterizing Gutierrez's intentions here. Firstly, it's become evident the team had not done enough research into Miller before drafting him. Their knowledge at the time of that first statement consisted on realizing he had a history of bullying, which they acknowledged as a negative, but yet still were of the belief that they could be part of remedying. Upon digging a fair bit deeper, probably further spurred on by the media backlash, it became quite evident that Miller's situation was in far more of a hole than initially thought, and that he'd made no real strides towards improvement, while quite possibly having mired himself in deeper.

At that point, it's fully reasonable for the Coyotes to realize he's too much of a project and he's not even close to making the NHL so how can they realistically even begin to work with him. He's not even taking the first real steps towards correcting any of this.

I still think an internal review on how this all went down is good, but I think you're ascribing too many nefariousness to Gutierrez when it's likely the team hadn't initially realized Miller is much closer to a lost cause than he is some one who just needs some mentorship.

There is a ZERO percent chance Gutierrez didn’t have the full story on Monday. Every one of us did.

 

[rt]

What should he do? The Coyotes made a massive mistake with Miller. The question is how much did he know, and was the call by him and BA to the mother just a cover story to drop a potato that was hotter than expected? If XG and BA knew all about Miller all along and still went for it, then this mess is extremely bad. (BA probably knew).

Don’t lie bold faced while pledging to help the kid and pretend it’s an altruistic endeavor to help society. It’s extremely easy. Just don’t lie your f***ing face off. Not hard.

I feel like people aren’t actually re-reading what he said.

 

[DropTheGloves]

I hope nobody in this forum ever gets fired from a job and publicly banned from working for something they did in high school.

If that "something" was repeatedly bullying a disabled kid in increasingly disgusting ways while also throwing racial slurs in the mix, I'd hope I'd have the introspective ability to know I deserved it too.

 

[CLW]

Don’t lie bold faced while pledging to help the kid and pretend it’s an altruistic endeavor to help society. It’s extremely easy. Just don’t lie your f***ing face off. Not hard.

I feel like people aren’t actually re-reading what he said.

I know. BA being pleased with the pick pissed me off as well, as I'm sure he knew the issue. I don't appreciate being told a pig is not a pig because they painted lipstick on it.

I didn't comment on Miller after the initial draft comments because I hated the nonsense around it. But now XG and BA have to clean up the mess in the den. If they suck the Coyotes are in deep poo.

 

[Canis Latrans]

There is a ZERO percent chance Gutierrez didn’t have the full story on Monday. Every one of us did.

Ok, I've gone back and read over stories. That first statement entirely does come across as damage control now when put into that timing. I was under the impression it was before any of the backlash, but it's actually more of a reaction to it, and then when it didn't work, they just cut him a couple days later.

 

[Jamieh]

If that "something" was repeatedly bullying a disabled kid in increasingly disgusting ways while also adding racial slurs in the mix, I'd hope I'd have the introspective ability to know I deserved it.

Just FTR how long should he be blacklisted for? Should he be able to move forward in 5 years, 10 years, never??

 

[KG]

I hope nobody in this forum ever gets fired from a job and publicly banned from working for something they did in high school.

This is not rote bullying.

 

[DropTheGloves]

Just FTR how long should he be blacklisted for? Should he be able to move forward in 5 years, 10 years, never??

Oh, he can start moving forward any time he wants. But why does he need to be an NHL draft choice or even NCAA hockey player to atone for what he's done?

 

[Jamieh]

Oh, he can start moving forward any time he wants. But why does he need to be an NHL draft choice or even NCAA hockey player to atone for what he's done?

So what professions should be available to him as he moves forward as a productive human?

 

[Canis Latrans]

I think you can still laud the team for making the correct decision, but be critical of how much prodding it took them to get there. It's a net negative in the end, but shouldn't continue to be a thorn in the team's side so long as they keep behaving according to their principles.

 

[CLW]

I think you can still laud the team for making the correct decision, but be critical of how much prodding it took them to get there. It's a net negative in the end, but shouldn't continue to be a thorn in the team's side so long as they keep behaving according to their principles.

Their 'principles' are in doubt. They just gaslighted their fan base basically.

Right now they have the excuse they did not know the full story of Miller's actions. If that falls apart this mess goes all the way to the top, and it's not just some scouts acting outside their normal competency level.

 

[DropTheGloves]

So what professions should be available to him as he moves forward as a productive human?

Any that would be available to a normal person with the same record. That probably rules out medical or law school, and may even limit his choice of universities altogether as many prestigious institutions assess one's character as part of their application process. Likewise, there are professions and employers that don't require a degree which may still look dimly on his past. Such is the consequence of his actions however, and no one else is to blame but himself.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It so pains me to say that the Coyotes are now rightly the laughingstock of the league and a shit show the likes of which may never be seen again.

...so, a normal Thursday.

 

[Canis Latrans]

Their 'principles' are in doubt. They just gaslighted their fan base basically.

Right now they have the excuse they did not know the full story of Miller's actions. If that falls apart this mess goes all the way to the top, and it's not just some scouts acting outside their normal competency level.

Yeah, it's definitely a fair criticism, but like I said, the only way to remedy that is by continuing to act on their stated principles and build a solid track record. I'd hope it doesn't continue escalating up to the top. I kind of believe them when they claim things got lost in the transition. It makes some sense that some scouts solely look at it as their job to rate the hockey-only ability of prospects, and they make their lists as such. Some form of management probably handles the interviews. It's possible some one like Sullivan was put in charge, but was never involved in the scouting process to this extent before, and thus things slipped through, but yet it's all still so dodgy. They have a lot of work to do to make amends.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I hope nobody in this forum ever gets fired from a job and publicly banned from working for something they did in high school.

Well, hell, it depends on the severity, don't you think?

If it came out that four years ago you bloodied up a developmentally disabled person and shoved his face into a pile of fresh crap, I'd think that your HR department would have plenty of grounds to can you for it. 'Course, if they were competent at vetting you, they wouldn't hire you in the first place.

 

[Jamieh]

Any that would be available to a normal person with the same record. That probably rules out medical or law school, and may even limit his choice of universities altogether as many prestigious institutions assess one's character as part of their application process. Likewise, there are professions and employers that don't require a degree which may still look dimly on his past. Such is the consequence of his actions however, and no one else is to blame but himself.

So the NHL should still be available and any team should be free to bring him in? IMO as time passes the world should allow this kid to become a good human and look away rather than waiting for him at every step. How does it serve anyone as this week has unfolded? Who will benefit if ND boots him next like the lynch mob wants?

 

[ck26]

Any that would be available to a normal person with the same record. That probably rules out medical or law school, and may even limit his choice of universities altogether as many prestigious institutions assess one's character as part of their application process. Likewise, there are professions and employers that don't require a degree which may still look dimly on his past. Such is the consequence of his actions however, and no one else is to blame but himself.

Did you know that Craig MacTavish killed a lady named Kim Radley while drunk driving, did a year in prison, got out, walked right back into an NHL lineup, won 4 Stanley Cups and later was a coach and a GM?

Because most people don't know that.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Just FTR how long should he be blacklisted for? Should he be able to move forward in 5 years, 10 years, never??

He could move on tomorrow if he would simply, honestly, and directly apologize to the kid and the family.

 

[Jamieh]

He could move on tomorrow if he would simply, honestly, and directly apologize to the kid and the family.

So that's it? Just apologize. I think he did the Court mandated one, does he still require a Court of Public Opinion one as well? It changes nothing. Has he shown growth and learned from his ways is far more important imo.

 

[DropTheGloves]

So the NHL should still be available and any team should be free to bring him in?

Note I said "normal person"- professional sports is a privilege not available to everybody, and he's inarguably lost his privilege to partake in it through his own actions. If other organizations/schools choose to reject his participation, that's up to them.

IMO as time passes the world should allow this kid to become a good human and look away rather than waiting for him at every step.

He's been allowed since 2016, and from all reports has yet to even try to become a "good human". There's the problem with your logic.

How does it serve anyone as this week has unfolded

It certainly doesn't serve the boy he victimized, that's for sure. Again though, it's no one's fault but Miller's that he is now facing the consequences of his actions. You'll notice the "lynch mob" hasn't even mentioned the other youth convicted in this case, because- wait for it- he apologized and was deemed to be genuinely remorseful all the way back in 2016.

Who will benefit if ND boots him next like the lynch mob wants?

Probably not Mitchell Miller, but again, playing collegiate sports is a privilege. It's not a right, and being kicked off the hockey team would have little bearing on whether he is able to grow as a person or not.

 

[Mosby]

So what does renounce mean here? I know what the definition is, but what is the NHL's definition? Is he no longer considered Coyotes property? His rights aren't held? Could someone draft him next year or do they have to wait four years?

I don't recall this happening before in the NHL.

 

[Jamieh]

My personal belief is that a minor who commits a crime, serves their punishment, and does not reoffend, should have their record expunged when they become an adult. It should not hang over their head. Exceptional circumstances only to reopen.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Soooooooooooo let's draft a guy who we know did some f***ed up shit. Then let's say we think we're the team to help him. Then, after backlash let's cave and cut him and claim we didn't know all the details. Jesus. Managed to both draft an apparent POS then also succumb to social media mob justice, all while blowing yet ANOTHER pick and look incompetent or dishonest. Holy f***ing shit. I stopped checking this site and coyotes stuff in general for a long while, casually popped in to check out the draft, and am immediate back to being disappointed. I think they may have finally broken me of coyotes fandom over the past several months.

 

[Jamieh]

Note I said "normal person"- professional sports is a privilege not available to everybody, and he's inarguably lost his privilege to partake in it through his own actions. If other organizations/schools choose to reject his participation, that's up to them.



He's been allowed since 2016, and from all reports has yet to even try to become a "good human". There's the problem with your logic.



It certainly doesn't serve the boy he victimized, that's for sure. Again though, it's no one's fault but Miller's that he is now facing the consequences of his actions. You'll notice the "lynch mob" hasn't even mentioned the other youth convicted in this case, because- wait for it- he apologized and was deemed to be genuinely remorseful all the way back in 2016.



Probably not Mitchell Miller, but again, playing collegiate sports is a privilege. It's not a right, and being kicked off the hockey team would have little bearing on whether he is able to grow as a person or not.

I have not read one bad thing about him since 2016, I am open to seeing your evidence? The lynch mod would be right there on the other kid if he was drafted, you are silly to suggest otherwise.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

So that's it? Just apologize. I think he did the Court mandated one, does he still require a Court of Public Opinion one as well? It changes nothing. Has he shown growth and learned from his ways is far more important imo.

It's the nature of the apology. Man, I hate how nuance gets lost on the Internet. The Court-mandated apology was clearly a matter of Miller going through the motions - as evidenced by the fact that he subsequently taunted Isaiah again a couple years after the fact. Being an alleged leader of his ice hockey teams is fine and dandy but that's a whole different context.

You screw over a guy, you need to make it right. If all you do is pay lip service and move on, that's not enough.

The guy who nearly cost me an eye and a testicle, and whose bullying put me through several years of therapy, would still have earned a ton of respect from me if he had ever once come up to me unbidden and genuinely apologized. But part of the bully psychology is making the victim seem less than human, and directly acknowledging the victim in that way humanizes them too much. A bully is not capable of it. That's why, if Miller had had the character to apologize, it would have been a clear sign that he was either past his previous behavior, or working on moving past it.