Rumor: 2020-21 Trade Rumours and FA Part VIII: Intra-Playoff Edition?

[Balthazar]

Girard should never play on the right side.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Girard is an elite talent who took his game to the next level this season. Signed to a team-friendly contract at a time when the cap is going to become a serious issue.

Jones had his best season around 2017 or 2018, and has been in a precipitous decline since. Whether he rebounds or not is still a question. I know Henchy and I are in disagreement on him and we will continue to do so. I’m not as bullish on him as others. Also, he’s 26 as opposed to 23, which is a huge issue in terms of contracts.

And lastly, one guy can still walk at the end of this supposed trade. You fail to sign him, you traded the team’s best all-around defender for a rental.

People are overreacting over Girard’s play in this series, and yes, it’s concerning. But I don’t think you throw the baby out with the bath water after a poor showing (and again, it should be noted that Bednar continually partnered G up with the team’s two worst defensemen by a country mile on a vast majority of his shifts). You’d basically be reconfiguring the team at a fundamental level. This team is built around Makar, Toews, and Girard. It is not built around Jones.

Given the last few playoff runs Girard has not proven he can handle the physical play that ALWAYS occurs during the playoffs. His biggest strength is nullified to a certain degree by a heavy forecheck and his biggest weakness is glaringly exposed. If Girard is the team's best all around defender as you say then why does he have to be playing with another top tier defender? The best overall defender should be able to carry lesser defenders; not have to be protected by other defenders.

Girard has a team friendly contract for sure, and he is still fairly young for sure, but I don't see him as a cornerstone of a Stanley Cup winning team. I think that role goes to Makar and Toews and hopefully Byram and of course MacKinnon and Rantanan.

If Jones is hell bent on testing free agency after one season here then sure, don't make the trade. If, on the other hand, the Avs feel somewhat confident that Jones would resign here then I would do it for sure.

 

[flyfysher]

Girard is an elite talent who took his game to the next level this season. Signed to a team-friendly contract at a time when the cap is going to become a serious issue.

Jones had his best season around 2017 or 2018, and has been in a precipitous decline since. Whether he rebounds or not is still a question. I know Henchy and I are in disagreement on him and we will continue to do so. I’m not as bullish on him as others. Also, he’s 26 as opposed to 23, which is a huge issue in terms of contracts.

And lastly, one guy can still walk at the end of this supposed trade. You fail to sign him, you traded the team’s best all-around defender for a rental.

People are overreacting over Girard’s play in this series, and yes, it’s concerning. But I don’t think you throw the baby out with the bath water after a poor showing (and again, it should be noted that Bednar continually partnered G up with the team’s two worst defensemen by a country mile on a vast majority of his shifts). You’d basically be reconfiguring the team at a fundamental level. This team is built around Makar, Toews, and Girard. It is not built around Jones.

You have two issues to fix then.

1. 2C . How do you propose to do that?

2. 2RD to cover Girard’s inability to recover the puck and initiate the breakout in the POs and defend down low where he isn’t effective. What’s your solution to both of these issues?

 

[hoserthehorrible]

You have two issues to fix then.

1. 2C . How do you propose to do that?

2. 2RD to cover Girard’s inability to recover the puck and initiate the breakout in the POs and defend down low where he isn’t effective. What’s your solution to both of these issues?

1. Whether you have Girard or Jones you still have a 2C issue to fix.

2. I'm not sure what your question is on #2. Girard mostly played RD this playoffs. Jones would take that spot.

 

[Nihiliste]

A lot of these scenarios are ultimately dreaming. Sakic will promote a couple rookies, re-sign guys, add a couple depth players to replace departures (XD and expiring deals), and call it a day. He might make one bigger trade but it'll be for someone he sees as undervalued (like Toews or Burakovsky the year before). We're not going to be getting Eichel or Jones.

Watch them go to Vegas/Minny

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Girard is an elite talent who took his game to the next level this season. Signed to a team-friendly contract at a time when the cap is going to become a serious issue.

Jones had his best season around 2017 or 2018, and has been in a precipitous decline since. Whether he rebounds or not is still a question. I know Henchy and I are in disagreement on him and we will continue to do so. I’m not as bullish on him as others. Also, he’s 26 as opposed to 23, which is a huge issue in terms of contracts.

And lastly, one guy can still walk at the end of this supposed trade. You fail to sign him, you traded the team’s best all-around defender for a rental.

People are overreacting over Girard’s play in this series, and yes, it’s concerning. But I don’t think you throw the baby out with the bath water after a poor showing (and again, it should be noted that Bednar continually partnered G up with the team’s two worst defensemen by a country mile on a vast majority of his shifts). You’d basically be reconfiguring the team at a fundamental level. This team is built around Makar, Toews, and Girard. It is not built around Jones.

How are we still calling Girard the best overall defender on the Avs? That’s Makar and it has been for quite a while.

I do think that any thought of trading G for the sake of trading him is just silly though.

He’s clearly still an excellent defenceman. I would explore the idea to address other needs, because they have the top pair locked down and I’m a big believer in Byram.

I don’t agree with the notion that G is so important that you’re reconfiguring the team to a fundamental level if he’s moved. The Avs still have plenty of defenceman to play their style effectively and move the puck without him.

 

[flyfysher]

1. Whether you have Girard or Jones you still have a 2C issue to fix.

2. I'm not sure what your question is on #2. Girard mostly played RD this playoffs. Jones would take that spot.

1. I want to know how Poke proposes to fix 2C and with what assets. Girard is the Avs most tradeable high end asset so it’s a fair question.

2. Girard was getting hung up retrieving the puck and not being allowed to breakout. He needs an effective partner to take the pressure off in the POs. It’s not Graves. While I don’t expect Graves to return, I would like to see this problem resolved now.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

A lot of these scenarios are ultimately dreaming. Sakic will promote a couple rookies, re-sign guys, add a couple depth players to replace departures (XD and expiring deals), and call it a day. He might make one bigger trade but it'll be for someone he sees as undervalued (like Toews or Burakovsky the year before). We're not going to be getting Eichel or Jones.

Watch them go to Vegas/Minny

Yeah, I agree with you, in reality Sakic doesn't tend to go for the blockbuster deal but instead will make a "prudent" move. If he can swing a Toews like deal I'm all for it.

Off season moves have been pretty decent; and the Duchene deal as well. It's the trade deadline moves where Sakic fails. Soderberg and Nemeth were either non-existent or absolutely horrible in the playoffs. Sakic can't do that again if the Avs are going to win a cup.

 

[myperbixhurts]

As you said, 1 line cannot take you to the cup. But the AVS need a 2nd line not a 3rd line. Take the pressure off the Mack line.

Well, the 2nd line didn't have Kadri, that's why I can't judge that line. If Kadri was there, maybe they would produce better.

 

[duckbear]

Girard is an elite talent who took his game to the next level this season. Signed to a team-friendly contract at a time when the cap is going to become a serious issue.

Jones had his best season around 2017 or 2018, and has been in a precipitous decline since. Whether he rebounds or not is still a question. I know Henchy and I are in disagreement on him and we will continue to do so. I’m not as bullish on him as others. Also, he’s 26 as opposed to 23, which is a huge issue in terms of contracts.

And lastly, one guy can still walk at the end of this supposed trade. You fail to sign him, you traded the team’s best all-around defender for a rental.

People are overreacting over Girard’s play in this series, and yes, it’s concerning. But I don’t think you throw the baby out with the bath water after a poor showing (and again, it should be noted that Bednar continually partnered G up with the team’s two worst defensemen by a country mile on a vast majority of his shifts). You’d basically be reconfiguring the team at a fundamental level. This team is built around Makar, Toews, and Girard. It is not built around Jones.

a) There is enough cap to re-sign Jones if traded for, and we can extend him before next season starts. If his agent is as down on his game as you are, he won't even cost much more than Girard long-term.
b) We don't need more of the same. Jones fills multiple roles (size/defense/pk) where as Girard is a luxury and largely redundant because of our other players. Note: This doesn't mean I think Girard isn't a great player. I do.
c) Jones has struggled a bit recently. That's one big reason this is even available, and we should jump on it. He would rebound in Colorado.
d) CLB has trouble signing guys. Jones wants out. Girard's contract is another reason why the trade makes sense.
e) Jones age is not an issue. He's in his prime.
f) I don't think anyone is overreacting to Girard's play. We are looking to make the team as a whole better and this is a very clear and obvious weakness that would be addressed. It's like a perfect match.

 

[dahrougem2]

Sorry, I really don’t even want Jost back as a 4th line center. Once playoffs roll around you’re just going to have to shelter the living shit outta him. And he proved in the worst way possible that winning faceoffs matters.

Much as I am disgusted at admitting it, the way the league calls things in the playoffs vs. the regular season, Vegas proved you’re way better off with a big, tough, forechecking fourth line that is a total liability in the defensive zone than you are with a defensively savvy, but smaller trio of players. Get the big boys, get the faceoff winners, get the guys who occasionally put the puck in the net. I mean, FFS, Corey goddamn Perry can’t even skate anymore and is playing at a Conn Smythe clip.

That's essentially where I am as well. Jost can gtfo and go play somewhere else. Don't want him ever touching 3C role, and too small for the 4C role. This team's 4th line needs a new identity. Calvert was great to have but he's finished. I think O'Connor works there, but you've got to insulate him with two big bodies so that he isn't the only guy playing physical which was the case most times he was in the lineup this season.

Looking around at UFA's, there isn't anyone really there. So it'd have to be via trade. Names I'd be happy with include Josh Archibald, Derek Grant, Nicolas Deslauriers, Lawson Crouse, Brendan Lemieux, Trent Frederic, Chris Wagner, Scott Laughton, and Garnet Hatheway.

Can we acquire one of those guys? I hope so.

Girard is an elite talent who took his game to the next level this season. Signed to a team-friendly contract at a time when the cap is going to become a serious issue.

Jones had his best season around 2017 or 2018, and has been in a precipitous decline since. Whether he rebounds or not is still a question. I know Henchy and I are in disagreement on him and we will continue to do so. I’m not as bullish on him as others. Also, he’s 26 as opposed to 23, which is a huge issue in terms of contracts.

And lastly, one guy can still walk at the end of this supposed trade. You fail to sign him, you traded the team’s best all-around defender for a rental.

People are overreacting over Girard’s play in this series, and yes, it’s concerning. But I don’t think you throw the baby out with the bath water after a poor showing (and again, it should be noted that Bednar continually partnered G up with the team’s two worst defensemen by a country mile on a vast majority of his shifts). You’d basically be reconfiguring the team at a fundamental level. This team is built around Makar, Toews, and Girard. It is not built around Jones.

Here's where I disagree.

1) I do not believe he's our best all around defensemen, to me that is very clearly Devon Toews.

2) This now makes it 4 years in a row and 4 of 7 playoff series' where he's been physically dominated. Nashville, San Jose, Dallas and Vegas all took turns pounding away at Girard and he couldn't do anything about it. Eventually, it's not just a coincidence, it's a concern. Do I think Girard for Jones is something we should consider? Perhaps, although I'd much rather build a mega package around Girard/Newhook/1st for Jack Eichel. But I don't think the Girard criticism is unwarranted.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

There's a narrative that Jones play has gone downhill the last couple years. The numbers would appear to back that up. However, Columbus as a whole has gone down hill the last couple of year as well. Has Columbus gone downhill because Jones has gone downhill? Or, has Jones's numbers gone downhill because the team around him has gone downhill?

That's the big question that we may not know the answer to until next year at the earliest.

 

[The Kingslayer]

So Devon Toews and Sam girard are better dman than Seth Jones? You guys agree with this? Seeing alot of this being talked about on Twitter and Insta.

 

[nammerus]

A lot of these scenarios are ultimately dreaming. Sakic will promote a couple rookies, re-sign guys, add a couple depth players to replace departures (XD and expiring deals), and call it a day. He might make one bigger trade but it'll be for someone he sees as undervalued (like Toews or Burakovsky the year before). We're not going to be getting Eichel or Jones.

Watch them go to Vegas/Minny

Well, if that’s how it’s going to play out (and I agree that’s the most likely course of action Sakic will take) then another year, another 2nd round exit.

 

[Nihiliste]

Well, if that’s how it’s going to play out (and I agree that’s the most likely course of action Sakic will take) then another year, another 2nd round exit.

Agreed, but just saying Sakic has never given us a reason to think he’s going to be the guy to go out and be aggressive and make a big splash

 

[Avs_19]

So Devon Toews and Sam girard are better dman than Seth Jones? You guys agree with this? Seeing alot of this being talked about on Twitter and Insta.

Jones' numbers aren't good so a lot of the analytics folks are down on him. Meanwhile, Toews and Girard are both analytics darlings and rightfully so because they're great. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but I thought Jones was pretty damn good in last year's playoffs, even though the numbers suggested otherwise. I bet he'd be great in the Avs system too.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

So Devon Toews and Sam girard are better dman than Seth Jones? You guys agree with this? Seeing alot of this being talked about on Twitter and Insta.

First and foremost, I’m a big time analytics guy. However I’m quickly learning that most analytics people hold regular season analytics above all else when in reality there are intangibles and other things that matter when it comes to playoff hockey. Hits are harder, forechecks are heavier, clutching and grabbing happens far more often as defenders know they won’t be penalized.

So while on one hand the regular season numbers show Girard is already a significantly better player than Seth Jones, the playoffs have shown a different story. Girard has struggled in every single series the Avs have ever been eliminated in. Nashville, San Jose, Dallas and big time vs Vegas. He’s been good vs CGY and AZ. I’m not saying it’ll be this way forever but so far it’s a fact and the analytics community will never say this because it basically has nothing to do with how they evaluate hockey players.

I don’t know if Girard for Jones is a smart move given their age and contracts. But anybody who thinks Seth Jones isn’t at this point in time a significant upgrade on Sam Girard for a playoff series are out of their god damn minds and sipping the regular season number juice far too hard and that’s coming from me, a numbers lover.

 

[Avs_19]

Speaking of analytics darlings, I won't be surprised if Tomas Tatar is an Avs target if he comes at a reasonable price and Saad is too expensive to retain. It was never confirmed but there was a lot speculation about him being the guy the Avs were looking at when them and the Habs were scouting each other non-stop last year.

 

[Freudian]

The problem with relying on Kadri as 2C next year is that there is a decent chance he either makes a stupid play again (since he's a hothead and not a very cerebral player) or he will be so afraid to screw up he'll be passive and useless.

It's going to be very hard for him to be effective. It's going to be very hard for the coaches and teammates to trust him.

 

[flyfysher]

The problem with relying on Kadri as 2C next year is that there is a decent chance he either makes a stupid play again (since he's a hothead and not a very cerebral player) or he will be so afraid to screw up he'll be passive and useless.

It's going to be very hard for him to be effective. It's going to be very hard for the coaches and teammates to trust him.

You know the NHL is already targeting him.

 

[Hasbro]

So long term on Eichel for Kadri and Girard and being optimistic on salary and graduations.

Even if you get MacKinnon to reup at $10M, you run the risk of the flat cap leaving $20M to re up Byram, Newhook and having to fill another 8 roster spots. Yikes.

 

[The Abusement Park]

You know the NHL is already targeting him.

The NHL isn't targeting Kadri...

 

[Pokecheque]

You have two issues to fix then.

1. 2C . How do you propose to do that?

2. 2RD to cover Girard’s inability to recover the puck and initiate the breakout in the POs and defend down low where he isn’t effective. What’s your solution to both of these issues?

1. I don’t think getting an upgrade at 2C will cost them a Girard. A Byram or Newhook perhaps, but not Girard. Also, I’m not near as concerned about the team’s 2C situation as I am their 3C situation. They MUST upgrade that position this offseason. No excuses.

2. I’ve maintained a big reason Girard got stuck in his own zone a lot was because of Bednar’s insistence on giving him defensive partners with NO puck skill. One of the Vegas goals in game six was in part because Sammy coughed up the puck but it wasn’t the primary reason. In that play, the Avs actually got it back but then Jost decided to pass it from behind the net to Nemeth (and that was a poor choice by Jost because Nemeth was in poor position to receive it) who promptly turned it over, and then…goal. Right there are the other glaring issues compounding Girard’s struggles. And those puck support issues IMO are relatively easy to correct. Get Nemeth and Graves the f*** outta there and give G at least a competent defensive partner and then the opposition won’t key in on him so much. Also, better puck support up front, as in NOT JOST, and those turnovers aren’t nearly as glaring.

Lastly (and I know this is a long post) players around G just need to…play better. That Karlsson goal was WAY more on Landeskog, who made a dumb pass out of the corner to G and then proceeded to cover no one in the low slot area so Karlsson was wide f***ing open at the top of the right circle).

Sam Girard will never be an Alex Pietrangelo. We know that. But neither will Seth Jones. But make better roster and tactical decisions with Girard and he will be much more effective. It was poor planning by Bednar and his staff to just throw G out there on his own and hope he just figures it out. Adjustments should have and could have been made.

 

[myperbixhurts]

Unless Girard learns how to handle the playoff physicality and grind, it's gonna be a concern every year that he will keep getting exposed. It's no coincidence that the 4 teams left in the playoffs all have bigger d core. Avs core is just too small. Gotta make changes

 

[Hasbro]

The NHL isn't targeting Kadri...

Won't overlook him anyway.