Speculation: 2020-21 LA Kings News/Rumors/Roster Discussion Part II

[SFKingshomer]

The problem is, if Kopitar and Doughty are so great, why is the team so bad?

This is coming from Kopitar/Doughty lover. I'm not a hater.

I keep hearing "Kings need to add two top 6 forwards and a top 4-dman this offseason". But we already had that in 2018/19 and we were still terrible.

That's why I think it's pointless to add to the current roster.

Yea the culture needs to change. I'm on board with trading both but they likely don't have much value.

 

[KingsHockey24]

I don't know if we need someone to take over the locker room per say, but I do feel like we could use some more emotional players.

We could really use an Ian Laperrière or Deadmarsh type. Someone who can stir things up, get guys going, and add some emotion to the game.

I think Blake knows this, which is why he traded for Lemieux.

It can also come from a coach too.

Closest thing to Deadmarsh at this point is Landeskog; who'll be a UFA. HIGHLY doubt he leaves Colorado though.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Maybe the play is to acquire a top 4D + top six foward together. Sergachev/Cernak + Johnson, Dunn + Tarasenko, Carlo/Grzelcyk + Debrusk.

Also a little article on Jake DeBrusk to LA.

Acquiring Jake DeBrusk makes sense for the LA Kings

DeBrusk will come cheap due to his on ice performance and he missed the end of the year stuff because he didn't want to meet with the coach.

 

[FSL KINGS]

Maybe the play is to acquire a top 4D + top six foward together. Sergachev/Cernak + Johnson, Dunn + Tarasenko, Carlo/Grzelcyk + Debrusk.

Also a little article on Jake DeBrusk to LA.

Acquiring Jake DeBrusk makes sense for the LA Kings

Wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Debrusk. He has a 3.6 AAV & close to a 5 Qualifying offer in a year. With Boston trying to clear cap to sign players like Hall this offseason, not going to give up anything of value for a cap dump that may not be qualified on his next contract.

 

[Fat Elvis]

Lizotte+Clague for Debrusk

 

[Rusty Batch]

Yes, they are in a completely separate tier and that isn't a knock on Kopitar. The only argument is the defensive side of things and his durability but the PPG for those two crushes Kopitar's.

Kopitar has only played 70 fewer games than Ovechkin and has actually played more games than Crosby. The differences in offensive output plus everything else those two bring to the table clearly put them in a different tier.

When you move past those two, you then have to deal with Malkin as well. 1 Hart/3 NHL 1st Teams/ 1 Conn Smythe/2 Art Ross/ 1 Pearson/1 Calder and two 2nd place Hart finishes. Kopitar has the two Selkes, a Byng and the 2nd place Hart finish over the exact same amount of time.

Kopitar is a drastically better defensive player than either of those two. He will likely end up a couple hundred career points behind them and be in the middle of both with cups. He was born in the wrong country, played on the wrong coast, and didn't have the type of game that most fans appreciate. But imo he was never in a different tier than them and Crosby at least is declining more rapidly than kopi.

 

[johnjm22]

It's going to be very expensive for Tampa to get rid of Johnson's contract.

Marleau's 1yr @ 6M, cost Toronto a 1st round pick to dump. Johnson is signed for 3 more years at 5M per.

I would take Johnson's contract, but TB would really have to sweeten that deal. Their 2021st wouldn't be near enough.

Or maybe Johnson will magically have a career ending injury this offseason. It is Tampa Bay we're talking about here.

 

[BigKing]

Doughty should have more than one Norris and he's got longevity more than the others at this point. What happens next matters. What's for sure is the 2010s were the Keith-Karlsson-Doughty decade. Every decade/generation has one-off d-men that can have a huge year or two. Hedman was a late entry and we'll see what he does from here on out, Chara was the overlap at the beginning. Hedman is starting to get the reputation bullshit acknowledgement that everyone accused Doughty of that he never got--if anything, DD was largely ignored before 2012, after 2016. He's getting the West Coast treatment just like Kopitar. If either of those guys were in TO or Boston, they'd be getting TONS of noise year in and year out.

I'm not going to say whether DD is generational or not but if you believe any single one of those guys is, Doughty is too.

I don't believe any of the 2010 guys are generational. I guess the argument for Doughty being generational is that you don't see 18 year old players step in on defense and play an effective 23 minutes a night and then follow that up in their 19/20 year old season as a Norris finalist and All NHL 2nd team on top of his play at the 2010 Olympics.

I guess I feel like there is a difference between "best defenseman of his generation" and someone actually being "generational", if that makes sense.

 

[Rusty Batch]

The problem is, if Kopitar and Doughty are so great, why is the team so bad?

This is coming from Kopitar/Doughty lover. I'm not a hater.

I keep hearing "Kings need to add two top 6 forwards and a top 4-dman this offseason". But we already had that in 2018/19 and we were still terrible.

That's why I think it's pointless to add to the current roster.

Its really simple... The Kings are intentionally tanking for anyone else who isn't aware of this. We actually ended the season with about 20 million in just completely dead cap space. Didn't even try to use the 9 mil in available cap space that we entered the season with. We had Kovalchuck and Richards eating up 7 mil of it and another 3 to Jeff Carter once we traded him. We intentionally don't play our prospects who would have helped the team in order to further hamstring the team. With all that they still managed to finish ahead of 7 teams in the standings.

This generations, generational players (McDavid and Matthews) are struggling to win a single playoff series in their absolute primes, with organizations that are in full on win now mode, both have some high end talent around them... Could we not use the same argument against them? Could we not use the same argument against Ovie and Crosby with organizations in win now mode that can't get it done?

Hockey is a team sport. Two guys cannot carry a team that spends 75% of the cap and trades away all of their tradeable players for futures.

 

[BigKing]

Kopitar is a drastically better defensive player than either of those two. He will likely end up a couple hundred career points behind them and be in the middle of both with cups. He was born in the wrong country, played on the wrong coast, and didn't have the type of game that most fans appreciate. But imo he was never in a different tier than them and Crosby at least is declining more rapidly than kopi.

Crosby has 1,325 points in 1,039 games. Kopitar has 1,000 in 1,129 games. Kopitar's better defensive play than Crosby isn't a 325 point difference maker. That said, Crosby finished 4th in Selke voting in 2019. I get that there is East Cost Bias but, still, let's not act like Crosby is a giant floater or something.

He's also not "declining". He only played 41 games in 2020 which is why you can say Kopitar scored more points the past two seasons. Crosby just put up 62 points in 55 games this past season and 47 in 41 the year prior. His decline is still PPG while Kopitar has been PPG one time in his entire career.

Defense is important so I don't want to downplay it, but f***ing Kris Draper has a Selke award. Jere Lehtinen has multiple Selkes. Easier to commit to playing stifling defense than it is to commit to being 7th all-time in PPG average. Kopitar gets very high marks for putting up good scoring numbers while playing good defense but the difference in scoring puts Crosby--and Ovechkin--on a different tier. Scoring is just more important.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Crosby has 1,325 points in 1,039 games. Kopitar has 1,000 in 1,129 games. Kopitar's better defensive play than Crosby isn't a 325 point difference maker. That said, Crosby finished 4th in Selke voting in 2019. I get that there is East Cost Bias but, still, let's not act like Crosby is a giant floater or something.

He's also not "declining". He only played 41 games in 2020 which is why you can say Kopitar scored more points the past two seasons. Crosby just put up 62 points in 55 games this past season and 47 in 41 the year prior. His decline is still PPG while Kopitar has been PPG one time in his entire career.

Defense is important so I don't want to downplay it, but f***ing Kris Draper has a Selke award. Jere Lehtinen has multiple Selkes. Easier to commit to playing stifling defense than it is to commit to being 7th all-time in PPG average. Kopitar gets very high marks for putting up good scoring numbers while playing good defense but the difference in scoring puts Crosby--and Ovechkin--on a different tier. Scoring is just more important.

Kopitar plays all of his games because he doesn't get hurt.
If you want to go by ppg:
Crosby's ppg in his 30s is 1.16, Crosby's ppg until his 30s was 1.31.
Kopitar ppg in his 30s is .91, Kopitar PPG until his 30s was .88.

So you tell me which one is declining faster...

 

[johnjm22]

Its really simple... The Kings are intentionally tanking for anyone else who isn't aware of this. We actually ended the season with about 20 million in just completely dead cap space. Didn't even try to use the 9 mil in available cap space that we entered the season with. We had Kovalchuck and Richards eating up 7 mil of it and another 3 to Jeff Carter once we traded him. We intentionally don't play our prospects who would have helped the team in order to further hamstring the team. With all that they still managed to finish ahead of 7 teams in the standings.

This generations, generational players (McDavid and Matthews) are struggling to win a single playoff series in their absolute primes, with organizations that are in full on win now mode, both have some high end talent around them... Could we not use the same argument against them? Could we not use the same argument against Ovie and Crosby with organizations in win now mode that can't get it done?

Hockey is a team sport. Two guys cannot carry a team that spends 75% of the cap and trades away all of their tradeable players for futures.

The Kings weren't tanking in 18/19.

This season they were tied for the 6th worst record in the league. And were 1 point away from having the 4th worst record in the league.

After a relatively hot start they were the worst team in the NHL outside of the Sabres.

The Oilers and Leafs are both doing pretty well.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Its really simple... The Kings are intentionally tanking for anyone else who isn't aware of this. We actually ended the season with about 20 million in just completely dead cap space. Didn't even try to use the 9 mil in available cap space that we entered the season with. We had Kovalchuck and Richards eating up 7 mil of it and another 3 to Jeff Carter once we traded him. We intentionally don't play our prospects who would have helped the team in order to further hamstring the team. With all that they still managed to finish ahead of 7 teams in the standings.

This generations, generational players (McDavid and Matthews) are struggling to win a single playoff series in their absolute primes, with organizations that are in full on win now mode, both have some high end talent around them... Could we not use the same argument against them? Could we not use the same argument against Ovie and Crosby with organizations in win now mode that can't get it done?

Hockey is a team sport. Two guys cannot carry a team that spends 75% of the cap and trades away all of their tradeable players for futures.

Players don’t intentionally tank that’s nonsense

 

[johnjm22]

WORST TEAMS IN THE NHL LAST 3 SEASONS:

Team	W	L	OT	POINTS	P%
Montréal Canadiens	99	82	28	226	0.541
New York Rangers	96	87	25	217	0.522
Arizona Coyotes	96	90	22	214	0.514
San Jose Sharks	96	91	21	213	0.512
Chicago Blackhawks	92	89	27	211	0.507
Vancouver Canucks	94	92	21	209	0.505
Anaheim Ducks	81	100	28	190	0.455
New Jersey Devils	78	100	29	185	0.447
Los Angeles Kings	81	105	22	184	0.442
Buffalo Sabres	78	104	25	181	0.437
Ottawa Senators	77	109	23	177	0.423
Detroit Red Wings	68	116	25	161	0.385

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

We just need to add a top 4-dman and two top 6 forwards. Then we'll be good again. I'm sure of it.

Trying to improve the team for this upcoming season is definitely not a waste of time and definitely not a path to the black hole.

 

[FSL KINGS]

It's going to be very expensive for Tampa to get rid of Johnson's contract.

Marleau's 1yr @ 6M, cost Toronto a 1st round pick to dump. Johnson is signed for 3 more years at 5M per.

I would take Johnson's contract, but TB would really have to sweeten that deal. Their 2021st wouldn't be near enough.

Or maybe Johnson will magically have a career ending injury this offseason. It is Tampa Bay we're talking about here.

Philly is another team that is in need of clearing cap up to fill their #1 right defender & improving goalie position. Lots of bargains to be had this offseason.

Think Oilers would want to dump 2 years of Neal somewhere too.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Players don’t intentionally tank that’s nonsense

I clearly was talking about the organization tanking...

 

[Rusty Batch]

The Kings weren't tanking in 18/19.

This season they were tied for the 6th worst record in the league. And were 1 point away from having the 4th worst record in the league.

After a relatively hot start they were the worst team in the NHL outside of the Sabres.

The Oilers and Leafs are both doing pretty well.

I remember that season. Willie Desjardin was the coach, we bought out Mike Richards, paid Kovi and Dion Phaneuf 11.5 mil, Carter scored 33 points in 76 games, and Quick saved 88% of the shots he faced... Lol

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't believe any of the 2010 guys are generational. I guess the argument for Doughty being generational is that you don't see 18 year old players step in on defense and play an effective 23 minutes a night and then follow that up in their 19/20 year old season as a Norris finalist and All NHL 2nd team on top of his play at the 2010 Olympics.

I guess I feel like there is a difference between "best defenseman of his generation" and someone actually being "generational", if that makes sense.

I totally get it. I'm hedging a little because like you say I think the word 'generation' is pretty abstract. All I'm saying is if Doughty isn't generational, NONE of them are; if Doughty IS generational, then all of them are. He can't be left off that list, the accomplishments are too similar, and he's arguably been shorted a Conn Smythe and at least one Norris (as well as a LOT of Norris finalist finishes).

Kopitar = Bergeron the same way Doughty roughly = Keith, the biggest difference to their legacies is ultimately going to be market (and a bunch of bitter little bitches *cough* dom *cough* that are still cranky about Karlsson).

Tell me this highlight reel doesn't look like Doughty if he were lefty



Edit: Quick note that I don't think Doughty is literally Lidstrom, just that he has a similar defensive 'highlight reel' that gets overlooked in favor of other guys. I hold Nik in EXTREMELY high regard, he did it at such a high level consistently for so long, and IMO is clearly better than the others in this conversation. Unless Doughty were able to pull it together again for his entire 30s, then he'd have duration over both Karlsson and Hedman as well as arguably Keith...

 

[BigKing]

Kopitar plays all of his games because he doesn't get hurt.
If you want to go by ppg:
Crosby's ppg in his 30s is 1.16, Crosby's ppg until his 30s was 1.31.
Kopitar ppg in his 30s is .91, Kopitar PPG until his 30s was .88.

So you tell me which one is declining faster...

The fact that Crosby is still at 1.16 points per game "on the decline" is proof enough he is on a separate tier.

Kopitar's durability is very impressive but that doesn't mean he is on the same tier as a truly generational player like Crosby. Guy has played over 1,000 games and is 7th all-time in PPG and has a way stronger trophy case.

 

[BigKing]

I remember that season. Willie Desjardin was the coach, we bought out Mike Richards, paid Kovi and Dion Phaneuf 11.5 mil, Carter scored 33 points in 76 games, and Quick saved 88% of the shots he faced... Lol

They weren't tanking until the Muzzin trade. Half tank. They just flat-out sucked so bad that a rebuild began midway through the season.

 

[johnjm22]

wrong thread

 

[Rusty Batch]

The fact that Crosby is still at 1.16 points per game "on the decline" is proof enough he is on a separate tier.

Kopitar's durability is very impressive but that doesn't mean he is on the same tier as a truly generational player like Crosby. Guy has played over 1,000 games and is 7th all-time in PPG and has a way stronger trophy case.

Crosby is a beast, no doubt. As I detailed in that post he is clearly declining faster and not as durable as Kopi. He also is used in a much more offensive role. 65/35 Ozone vs Dzone starts. Compared to Kopis 54/46 split. He also gets to play on a pp unit with Malkin (the other generational offensive talent) Guentzel, Letang, etc...

Kopitar is asked to do much more on the defensive side of the puck (hopefully nobody argues that), he's played on a team that has always had a more defensive system. And especially once you get on the pp he has for sure had significantly less offensive talent to work with.

Kopitar has led a team that won two Stanley cups in scoring 13 times (I'm honestly not sure how many players in NHL history have ever carried a team offensively so consistently over such a long stretch.) Crosby has led a team that won three Stanley cups in scoring 11 times.

Almost nobody outside of Kings fans would say that Kopitar is on the same level as Crosby. So you can take the win with that argument and keep circling back to ppg, media, and awards. But I'm a Kings fan and don't really care if it comes across as biased (which it probably is!) To me, Kopitar is just as good as Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, etc... he just does it in a different way that will never receive the type of respect as the ppg crew of his era. (Kopitar ppg is pretty beast anyways, 16th among active players)

 

[SmytheKing]

I'll defend Kopitar all day long...but he's nowhere near Crosby or Ovechkin. You're talking about two players who are Top 10-15 of all time. One is arguably the greatest goal scorer of all-time. Kopitar is going to be in the HOF and that is just fine. He doesn't have to be pushed closer to some of the greatest of the greats. So the Toronto/NY media doesn't appreciate him as much. Ok? Who cares. You know his accomplishments.

Also, neither him nor Doughty are "generational". They're both just some of the top players at their positions for their career. That's a hell of an accomplishment. Not too many players in history have their level of play sustain for over 10 years. Generational players aren't questioned about whether they're generational. Everyone knows.

 

[BigKing]

Crosby is a beast, no doubt. As I detailed in that post he is clearly declining faster and not as durable as Kopi. He also is used in a much more offensive role. 65/35 Ozone vs Dzone starts. Compared to Kopis 54/46 split. He also gets to play on a pp unit with Malkin (the other generational offensive talent) Guentzel, Letang, etc...

Kopitar is asked to do much more on the defensive side of the puck (hopefully nobody argues that), he's played on a team that has always had a more defensive system. And especially once you get on the pp he has for sure had significantly less offensive talent to work with.

Kopitar has led a team that won two Stanley cups in scoring 13 times (I'm honestly not sure how many players in NHL history have ever carried a team offensively so consistently over such a long stretch.) Crosby has led a team that won three Stanley cups in scoring 11 times.

Almost nobody outside of Kings fans would say that Kopitar is on the same level as Crosby. So you can take the win with that argument and keep circling back to ppg, media, and awards. But I'm a Kings fan and don't really care if it comes across as biased (which it probably is!) To me, Kopitar is just as good as Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, etc... he just does it in a different way that will never receive the type of respect as the ppg crew of his era. (Kopitar ppg is pretty beast anyways, 16th among active players)

That's all fine and Kopitar is awesome. When the word "generational" gets thrown around, it can't be applied to five different dudes at the same time so, if you are doing tiers, extremely good HHOF-caliber players are going to be a tier below.

Crosby put up 102 points at 18 years old. Hart at 19. That's generational stuff.

Kopitar led two Stanley Cup teams in scoring. Crosby has led one Cup team in scoring but also has two Smythe trophies. You can't talk about the 13 times Kopitar has led the Kings in scoring and equate it to "a team that won two Stanley Cups" since those two Cup seasons are unlike the other 11.

Kopitar's PPG average all-time drops considerably from the 16th active spot while Crosby is 7th all-time.

I hate the Penguins and don't care for Crosby. I love Kopitar. It is Kings bias though to think he's on the same level; however, you're owning that so it's cool.

 

[bland]

I don't know if we need someone to take over the locker room per say, but I do feel like we could use some more emotional players.

We could really use an Ian Laperrière or Deadmarsh type. Someone who can stir things up, get guys going, and add some emotion to the game.

I think Blake knows this, which is why he traded for Lemieux.

It can also come from a coach too.

Which coach, the three very different types that they quit on?

There is something very wrong with the attitude and approach of the players within this organization over the past 8 seasons, and it is perfectly fair to hold the supposed core leadership group responsible for these failures. Kopitar included.