Prospect Info: 2020-2021 Senators Prospect Watch

[Sens72]

 

[mianjo]

Ilves wins 6-2 Jarvente 1g, Thompson 1a

Malmo Engstrand listed as a sub

Stavenger 1-1 Balcers with a pp

Langnau 1-0 in 1st Brannstrom scores

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Silfverberg is still a good NHL player but as it was evident in his rookie season, he was never going to be a star. He is a bit passive and lacks execution quickness. Jarventie seems to be a lot quicker and to have more offensive talent so chances are on his side for now as he is pretty young but there's a long road ahead to become at least as good as Silfverberg

Rundblad I'm not sure, just could never adjust to the smaller NA surface but for some reason, he's a guy that only was able to play NHL hockey on one side of the ice, which doesn't work out in the end.



But that's the thing... Based on who?

Based on the Sens, Kleven was worth moving up.

Don't forget, everybody in the hockey world has a very different draft list. I bet teams spend a lot of time coming to a concensus within their organization so imagine outside.

Teams spend a lot of $$$ on their scouting. If they would rather go with some kind of media and bloggers pre-draft lists concensus, then anybody could do the job for just 1 salary. Just need to compile, do an average and go with that list. Call the shots to Pierre.

Plenty of lists had players ranked similar to Kleven still on the board. If the Sens though he was head and shoulders better than anyone else in that range they should have taken him with the 33 OA pick. I said myself that obviously the Sens valued him higher than anybody else left at that point. But I would doubt (and hope) that they realized that Tyler Kleven wasn't in a class by himself at that point. With that realization I would come to the conclusion that even if Kleven didn't fall to their 59th pick then they'd get someone of at least similar caliber. Jurmo, Prokop, Kuznetzov, Villeneuve, Poirier are all just defensemen with similar upside to Kleven. That's not even mentioning forwards.

I get that the Sens identified this guy as their guy and they obviously love something about his game. But therein lies the problem and one of Dorion's weaknesses: falling in love with a player and overpaying for them.

Hopefully Kleven breaks out, stops handling the puck like he's using a 2x4, develops a killer one-timer and turns into Shea Weber. I'd happily eat crow.

 

[mianjo]

Balcers a assist down 4-2

 

[Oral64]

Ilves wins 6-2 Jarvente 1g, Thompson 1a

Malmo Engstrand listed as a sub

Stavenger 1-1 Balcers with a pp

Langnau 1-0 in 1st Brannstrom scores

Brannstrom looking great with 2g & 2a in five games. What's even more impressive is that he's playing for the shittiest team in the Swiss league.

Also good to see that Thomson might be showing signs of turning the corner. He now has an assist in consecutive games - admittedly a small step, but he's trending in the right direction.

 

[aragorn]

Plenty of lists had players ranked similar to Kleven still on the board. If the Sens though he was head and shoulders better than anyone else in that range they should have taken him with the 33 OA pick. I said myself that obviously the Sens valued him higher than anybody else left at that point. But I would doubt (and hope) that they realized that Tyler Kleven wasn't in a class by himself at that point. With that realization I would come to the conclusion that even if Kleven didn't fall to their 59th pick then they'd get someone of at least similar caliber. Jurmo, Prokop, Kuznetzov, Villeneuve, Poirier are all just defensemen with similar upside to Kleven. That's not even mentioning forwards.

I get that the Sens identified this guy as their guy and they obviously love something about his game. But therein lies the problem and one of Dorion's weaknesses: falling in love with a player and overpaying for them.

Hopefully Kleven breaks out, stops handling the puck like he's using a 2x4, develops a killer one-timer and turns into Shea Weber. I'd happily eat crow.

I thought it was one of Dorion's strengths in identifying good young players as an amateur scout, head scout, head of player development, assistant GM & GM along with his scouting group as people who could identify good young talent? Isn't that what I have been reading on here since he has been with the organization that his strongest attribute was identifying good young talent?

Shouldn't we be giving him the benefit of the doubt that they identified Kleven as a player they really wanted by moving up to get him? Clearly it isn't a perfect science & they all make blunders at the draft table but isn't it a little early to crap on Kleven. IMO he fills a much needed role that they don't already have for any future team. Every GM makes mistakes or falls in love with a player that have attributes they value, I don't see that as a weakness, but it will be interesting to see if this pick works out or not, but I like the pick.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Plenty of lists had players ranked similar to Kleven still on the board. If the Sens though he was head and shoulders better than anyone else in that range they should have taken him with the 33 OA pick. I said myself that obviously the Sens valued him higher than anybody else left at that point. But I would doubt (and hope) that they realized that Tyler Kleven wasn't in a class by himself at that point. With that realization I would come to the conclusion that even if Kleven didn't fall to their 59th pick then they'd get someone of at least similar caliber. Jurmo, Prokop, Kuznetzov, Villeneuve, Poirier are all just defensemen with similar upside to Kleven. That's not even mentioning forwards.

I get that the Sens identified this guy as their guy and they obviously love something about his game. But therein lies the problem and one of Dorion's weaknesses: falling in love with a player and overpaying for them.

Hopefully Kleven breaks out, stops handling the puck like he's using a 2x4, develops a killer one-timer and turns into Shea Weber. I'd happily eat crow.

If he makes the nhl full time it will be a good pick. He doesn’t have to become an offensive player

 

[mianjo]

Ilves wins 6-2 Jarvente 1g, Thompson 1a

Malmo win 3-2 in OT

Stavenger lose 7-2 Balcers 1g 1a

Langnau Lose 4-3 in OT Brannstrom 1g

 

[mianjo]

After a few games absence, still listed as a Sens prospect Mikael Wilkstrand returned to action today and had a assist on a PP goal scored by Stephane Da Costa

 

[Crosside]

Brannstrom looking great with 2g & 2a in five games. What's even more impressive is that he's playing for the shittiest team in the Swiss league.

Also good to see that Thomson might be showing signs of turning the corner. He now has an assist in consecutive games - admittedly a small step, but he's trending in the right direction.

If he play left or at at right in the swiss league

 

[BondraTime]

Brannstrom looking great with 2g & 2a in five games. What's even more impressive is that he's playing for the shittiest team in the Swiss league.

Also good to see that Thomson might be showing signs of turning the corner. He now has an assist in consecutive games - admittedly a small step, but he's trending in the right direction.

What Ilves and Finn fans are saying about Thomson in his thread on the prospects board is pretty damning, hopefully they're incorrect

 

[Alf Silfversson]

If he makes the nhl full time it will be a good pick. He doesn’t have to become an offensive player

I didn't say anything about offensive though. I said good. In today's NHL you need to be able to handle and pass the puck, even as a defense first defender. Kleven seems to struggle with that.

If he becomes a good NHL player then it will be a good pick. If he becomes a 6-7 who is constantly hemmed in his own end then I'd say not.

Time will tell.

 

[Frank8]

After a few games absence, still listed as a Sens prospect Mikael Wilkstrand returned to action today and had a assist on a PP goal scored by Stephane Da Costa

Wilkstrand tied for fifth in scoring amongst D in the KHL last season. A couple of years ago he was quoted as saying he'd still like to play in the NHL and he's somehow still only 26, I wonder if he ever makes it over.

 

[Xspyrit]

Plenty of lists had players ranked similar to Kleven still on the board. If the Sens though he was head and shoulders better than anyone else in that range they should have taken him with the 33 OA pick. I said myself that obviously the Sens valued him higher than anybody else left at that point. But I would doubt (and hope) that they realized that Tyler Kleven wasn't in a class by himself at that point. With that realization I would come to the conclusion that even if Kleven didn't fall to their 59th pick then they'd get someone of at least similar caliber. Jurmo, Prokop, Kuznetzov, Villeneuve, Poirier are all just defensemen with similar upside to Kleven. That's not even mentioning forwards.

I get that the Sens identified this guy as their guy and they obviously love something about his game. But therein lies the problem and one of Dorion's weaknesses: falling in love with a player and overpaying for them.

Hopefully Kleven breaks out, stops handling the puck like he's using a 2x4, develops a killer one-timer and turns into Shea Weber. I'd happily eat crow.

Plenty of lists? Which lists? I don't think NHL teams care much about these lists... outside of other NHL teams as they'd like to know who they plan to draft next. We have no idea what these lists that matters (from NHL teams) look like, outside of a Bob MacKenzie effort.

If they picked Jarventie 33rd OA, he was higher on their list than Kleven, simple.

What does "Tyler Kleven wasn't in a class by himself at that point" means? Of course not, but he must have been high enough on their list and they were convinced he wasn't going to be there at 59th OA so they decided to move AHEAD of a team that was going to draft him.

Of course, Kleven could totally bust and play O NHL games but that's who they picked. You could name all the players that you would have preferred, it doesn't matter, the Sens scouting team (as a whole entity) didn't see things that way.

Do you think teams are not aware of these other prospects existence? And do you think they're not evaluating as many scenarios as possible prior to the draft? You realize it's the full time job of several people who have a lot of knowledge and experience? This is something they might have talked for hours and hours.

So which player (only one) would have you drafted at 59th that would have still been there? You'll be able to look at this in a few years and see if you were right! Of course, if you are naming several other guys, it's a bit too easy

 

[Sweatred]

Plenty of lists had players ranked similar to Kleven still on the board. If the Sens though he was head and shoulders better than anyone else in that range they should have taken him with the 33 OA pick. I said myself that obviously the Sens valued him higher than anybody else left at that point. But I would doubt (and hope) that they realized that Tyler Kleven wasn't in a class by himself at that point. With that realization I would come to the conclusion that even if Kleven didn't fall to their 59th pick then they'd get someone of at least similar caliber. Jurmo, Prokop, Kuznetzov, Villeneuve, Poirier are all just defensemen with similar upside to Kleven. That's not even mentioning forwards.

I get that the Sens identified this guy as their guy and they obviously love something about his game. But therein lies the problem and one of Dorion's weaknesses: falling in love with a player and overpaying for them.

Hopefully Kleven breaks out, stops handling the puck like he's using a 2x4, develops a killer one-timer and turns into Shea Weber. I'd happily eat crow.

Klevin wasn’t drafted to become Shea Weber ... that’s just a ridiculous expectation. It will be a win if he plays an effective 5-6 roll on the team for a few years.

 

[Xspyrit]

Shea Weber wasn’t drafted to become Shea Weber either

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Shea Weber wasn’t drafted to become Shea Weber either

Is that your projection for Tyler Kleven?

 

[Alf Silfversson]

So which player (only one) would have you drafted at 59th that would have still been there? You'll be able to look at this in a few years and see if you were right! Of course, if you are naming several other guys, it's a bit too easy

Joni Jurmo is a raw 6'4 LD who can skate like the wind and carries the puck out of his zone and into the other teams zone. He's raw and a project but he has tools that could make him a great second pairing player. Also would have taken Nikishin a 6'3 D who played in the KHL in his draft year and had similar production there as Kleven had in the USHL. As a D that's who I would have taken.

With the 64 pick then I would have gone with plenty of players too. Foudy, Smilanic and Gushchin would be the picks there. There were good D available there too.

My point was that there were several good players available but my picks would likely have been Jurmo and Smilanic.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

ISS has a mentorship program. Anyone here every do it? Apparently you get to listen and speak to quite a few people from teams (PROS!). I would like to take it. Work my way up the ranks get a job and then convince my team to sign Alex galchenyuk.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

ISS has a mentorship program. Anyone here every do it? Apparently you get to listen and speak to quite a few people from teams (PROS!). I would like to take it. Work my way up the ranks get a job and then convince my team to sign Alex galchenyuk.

I had a friend do it and he got a job in the CHL after 2yrs. Worked his ass off and still does, and the money is far from great. That said, its his passion and he loves what he does. Let me know if you go ahead with it & best of luck if you do

 

[Xspyrit]

Is that your projection for Tyler Kleven?

No. Not sure what made you think it was... I am nowhere near a NHL scout so I have no projection for Kleven at the moment. I am just intrigued to see how he can develop.

The point is Weber wouldn't have been "just" a 49th OA pick if teams had more faith that he was going to become Shea Weber, just like so many players before and after vs where they were taken.

The thing is we don't know how good or bad will prospects develop.

Kleven could totally bust or become a very pleasant surprise, or somewhere in the middle. It's up in the air at the moment.

Teams are drafting projects with an unknown outcome. If it was clear as day, there would be a concensus or at least something way closer to a concensus.

Joni Jurmo is a raw 6'4 LD who can skate like the wind and carries the puck out of his zone and into the other teams zone. He's raw and a project but he has tools that could make him a great second pairing player. Also would have taken Nikishin a 6'3 D who played in the KHL in his draft year and had similar production there as Kleven had in the USHL. As a D that's who I would have taken.

With the 64 pick then I would have gone with plenty of players too. Foudy, Smilanic and Gushchin would be the picks there. There were good D available there too.

My point was that there were several good players available but my picks would likely have been Jurmo and Smilanic.

If Joni Jurmo was such a great prospect right away, then why has he been passed 81 times by NHL teams? I mean, it's very possible that he turns out great, but in between #44 and #82, pretty much every team has had the chance to draft him. It seems that NHL teams disagree with you. Doesn't mean you can't be right.

So is he the guy you are "betting" on? Or is it Nikishin ? As I said, you have to go with only one. Teams pick only one prospect at a time...

Of course, there was several "good players" available and it's basically the case EACH and EVERY time a team goes on to select, anywhere in the draft, but the reality is you make only 1 choice. Let's take a completely random example, Alex Formenton. He was taken #47 in 2017. There was probably some people who thought or said "should have gone with X, should have gone with Y, etc". But in the end, the team might not regret it at all. Or opposedly, when they went with Gabriel Gagne in 2015, now they must totally regret it.

It's exactly like batting in baseball. You take a swing and sometimes you hit a simple, double, triple or homerun. A lot of times you strike out as well.

The point I am trying to make is that you are talking like if there was anything close to a clear concensus on a BPA list. There is none, not even close, particularly after the first obvious tiers at the top. the deeper you go in the draft, the bigger the disparity between lists become. So you are just naming your preferences (based on your own scouting or these medias lists you were taling about?) but they certainly won't make the unanimity with the people choosing, i.e. NHL teams.

No team in history ever come close to "hitting" on every pick. In the end, what matters for them is to come out of every draft with significant player(s) that will help their team

 

[Oral64]

What Ilves and Finn fans are saying about Thomson in his thread on the prospects board is pretty damning, hopefully they're incorrect

Here's what I could find - albeit dated - on the Finnish prospect thread.

i would like to know everyone's thoughts on ville heinola and lassi thomson. In my keepers league i'm thinking of drafting one or both of them ?

I think they both are VERY talented. But most probably both will still play next season in Liiga. At least I have understood that it is practically sure already that Thomson will play for Ilves (Tampere) next season.

Both of them have good potential to be even top pair defencemen in the future. Thomson is physically more ready than Heinola, but Heinola has probably a tad better hockey IQ (Thomson’s hockey IQ is good too though). Both seem to have great skills, most of the tools and even a good toolbox to become very good or even elite defencemen, in the best case scenario. Ippenator, Jul 26, 2019

Both are studs. I haven't seen much Heinola. But Lassi Thomson... Man that guy can skate, dangle and shoot! He looks like he could be another Klingberg. The guy has great potential and oozes skill and IQ in the offensive zone. He got alot of praise from camp this summer too. MiroPRKL, Aug 8, 2019

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I had a friend do it and he got a job in the CHL after 2yrs. Worked his ass off and still does, and the money is far from great. That said, its his passion and he loves what he does. Let me know if you go ahead with it & best of luck if you do

Thanks a lot. I’m on the fence. I have two jobs already. One is flexible tho. And we signed galchenyuk so now I have no purpose in an nhl front office.

 

[BondraTime]

Here's what I could find - albeit dated - on the Finnish prospect thread.

i would like to know everyone's thoughts on ville heinola and lassi thomson. In my keepers league i'm thinking of drafting one or both of them ?

I think they both are VERY talented. But most probably both will still play next season in Liiga. At least I have understood that it is practically sure already that Thomson will play for Ilves (Tampere) next season.

Both of them have good potential to be even top pair defencemen in the future. Thomson is physically more ready than Heinola, but Heinola has probably a tad better hockey IQ (Thomson’s hockey IQ is good too though). Both seem to have great skills, most of the tools and even a good toolbox to become very good or even elite defencemen, in the best case scenario. Ippenator, Jul 26, 2019

Both are studs. I haven't seen much Heinola. But Lassi Thomson... Man that guy can skate, dangle and shoot! He looks like he could be another Klingberg. The guy has great potential and oozes skill and IQ in the offensive zone. He got alot of praise from camp this summer too. MiroPRKL, Aug 8, 2019

Here, just go to the latest posts.

RD Lassi Thomson - Ilves, Liiga (2019, 19th, OTT)

 

[Alf Silfversson]

No. Not sure why made you think it was... I am nowhere near a NHL scout so I have no projection for Kleven at the moment. I am just intrigued to see how he can develop.

The point is Weber wouldn't have been "just" a 49th OA pick if teams had more faith that he was going to become Shea Weber, just like so many players before and after vs where they were taken.

The thing is we don't know how good or bad will prospects develop.

Kleven could totally bust or become a very pleasant surprise, or somewhere in the middle. It's up in the air at the moment.

Teams are drafting projects with an unknown outcome. If it was clear as day, there would be a concensus or at least something way closer to a concensus.



If Joni Jurmo was such a great prospect right away, then why has he been passed 81 times by NHL teams? I mean, it's very possible that he turns out great, but in between #44 and #82, pretty much every team has had the chance to draft him. It seems that NHL teams disagree with you. Doesn't mean you can't be right.

So is he the guy you are "betting" on? Or is it Nikishin ? As I said, you have to go with only one. Teams pick only one prospect at a time...

Of course, there was several "good players" available and it's basically the case EACH and EVERY time a team goes on to select, anywhere in the draft, but the reality is you make only 1 choice. Let's take a completely random example, Alex Formenton. He was taken #47 in 2017. There was probably some people who thought or said "should have gone with X, should have gone with Y, etc". But in the end, the team might not regret it at all. Or opposedly, when they went with Gabriel Gagne in 2015, now they must totally regret it.

It's exactly like batting in baseball. You take a swing and sometimes you hit a simple, double, triple or homerun. A lot of times you strike out as well.

The point I am trying to make is that you are talking like if there was anything close to a clear concensus on a BPA list. There is none, not even close, particularly after the first obvious tiers at the top. the deeper you go in the draft, the bigger the disparity between lists become. So you are just naming your preferences (based on your own scouting or these medias lists you were taling about?) but they certainly won't make the unanimity with the people choosing, i.e. NHL teams.

No team in history ever come close to "hitting" on every pick. In the end, what matters for them is to come out of every draft with significant player(s) that will help their team

I said I'd go Jurmo and Smilanic.

As for your baseball analogy I agree 100%. That's why I would have liked to go to the plate twice instead of once.

And I also like your Formenton and Gagne example but perhaps in a different way. They moved UP to get Gagne, much like Kleven. I think a good comparison to the Kleven sitaution would be in Formenton's year. Let's say they had decided to move up from 47th for a stay at home defenseman. They trade 47th and 121st for something around pick 40 and used it to select Dylan Samberg. Maybe Samberg makes it as a decent NHL defenseman, say a number 5. I'd have rather taken the two swings at 47 (Formenton) and 121 (Batherson).

Gagne well he was an example of just a bad pick and a bad decision to use a 2nd and 3rd pick on. I didn't like that trade and preferred Chalpik to Gagne right away (and got roasted for it on here). We'll see if the Sens get it right this time or not.