2019 Training Camp Thread - Pride and Passion

[Lempo]

I wasn’t referring just to the article, but to the overall situation. The toxicity is in the fact that a player is sitting out in a contract dispute, largely because he has underperformed for the amount of money he’s asking. It’s not a great situation for a team that a year ago thought of itself as being inside their Cup window.

Well. This was a special year for special RFAs, many of whom are unsigned. They all can't have Dubas as the GM I guess.

It's not a contract dispute, it's a contract negotiation. The money the player is making, is made in these right things. The "underperformance" in this case meant three hatricks in three different countries within one month's time. A 100+ goal ELC is a disappointment if you compare to Teemu Selanne maybe.

 

[Chrispy]

And again, this description is very Semin-like.

1) Is Semin going to scare a new ownership group off of every elite shooting wing who has 1 down year?
2) Laine still has two working wrists.

 

[Lempo]

"Patrik, we can't pay you that much money, we are already paying Sebastian Aho for not being Bryan Little." And then give him pen.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Downside we haven't discussed is bringing Laine to the team co-owned by the Fortnite guy.

 

[Lempo]

Downside we haven't discussed is bringing Laine to the team co-owned by the Fortnite guy.

"Patrik... give controller to Teuvo so we can film his clip."
"NO!"

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well. This was a special year for special RFAs, many of whom are unsigned. They all can't have Dubas as the GM I guess.

It's not a contract dispute, it's a contract negotiation. The money the player is making, is made in these right things. The "underperformance" in this case meant three hatricks in three different countries within one month's time. A 100+ goal ELC is a disappointment if you compare to Teemu Selanne maybe.

So a Selanne-worthy contract would be an overpayment. And that appears to be the issue.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

And again, this description is very Semin-like.

Except that we were having this discussion about Semin when he was considerably older.

The attitude thing, to me, is no big deal. He's a typical blunt Finn. The only real question to me is the defense, and call me naive, but I think that's a thing that improves for each individual when the entire team is bought into it. Winnipeg is definitely not bought into it. We sent Skinner off because he had a long career of not buying into it, and the room needed to change. The room has now changed, and the default tone is now "bust your ass for your teammates and good things happen."

Can we find the right set of pieces to make it work? I kind of don't think so, and I kind of don't think the Jets move him regardless. But all this "Skinner 2.0" stuff is way, way overblown imo.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

"Patrik... give controller to Teuvo so we can film his clip."
"NO!"

“Patrik you haven’t slept in 4 days.”

“YOU HAVEN’T SLEPT IN FOUR DAYS”

 

[tarheelhockey]

1) Is Semin going to scare a new ownership group off of every elite shooting wing who has 1 down year?
2) Laine still has two working wrists.

To be clear, I was OK with the Semin extension at the time. In context, we needed the scoring. It’s too bad the risk busted.

In current context, we don’t need to take that kind of risk with our cap situation and gut our roster to do it. One or the other, maybe. But not both. Much like with Semin I’d be willing to entertain a conversation about a slightly inflated contract to acquire a top goal scorer, but I’m not OK with hemorrhaging talent in the process.

If the Jets can find someone willing to make a painful trade and also hand out a massive contract, bully for them. I doubt they have anyone lined up for such a trade, hence the lack of leverage as the calendar gets closer to opening night.

 

[Lempo]

“Patrik you haven’t slept in 4 days.”

“YOU HAVEN’T SLEPT IN FOUR DAYS”

Counterpoint:

"Patrik, Mark said they got new skins for you if you score a hatter tonight."

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Counterpoint:

"Patrik, Mark said they got new skins for you if you score a hatter tonight."

Patrik if you win the Rocket Richard Trophy you are a playable character by May

 

[tarheelhockey]

Except that we were having this discussion about Semin when he was considerably older.

But Semin was always that guy on the ice. Watching him play it was obvious he could hit 50-60 and would never sink lower than 35. He was just too talented to think otherwise. And the years went by and he was still a 35-goal guy. And then the injuries started piling up.

I don’t even buy into the idea that he didn’t care. It’s just that players don’t always have linear careers, and goal scorers in particular become very frustrating when they trend down.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

But Semin was always that guy on the ice. Watching him play it was obvious he could hit 50-60 and would never sink lower than 35. He was just too talented to think otherwise. And the years went by and he was still a 35-goal guy. And then the injuries started piling up.

I don’t even buy into the idea that he didn’t care. It’s just that players don’t always have linear careers, and goal scorers in particular become very frustrating when they trend down.

Right. If we'd had the chance to acquire Semin at 22 instead of 28, would we have taken it, with all the caveats attached? For the right price, I think we absolutely would have.

And with Laine, he's just so much bigger and sturdier. I think the injuries are likely to be less of a concern.

(But again, really, I don't think the Jets are actually interested in giving Laine up.)

 

[tarheelhockey]

Right. If we'd had the chance to acquire Semin at 22 instead of 28, would we have taken it, with all the caveats attached?

I'd have done it, especially knowing in retrospect how badly we needed that player on our roster during that time period.

Would I have traded Erik Cole, Tim Gleason, and [hypothetical A-prospect that we didn't actually have] to get Semin on the roster, and THEN overpaid him? Nope. Not even a conversation to be had.

There's the rub for Winnipeg, if they can't break this deadlock. It's the reason we traded Jeff Skinner for Cliff Pu and a 2nd. Teams will make painful trades OR sign inflated contracts for scoring talent, but they won't do both. Doing both leaves a scorched-earth roster that isn't worth the sacrifice.

 

[jiitu]

Well. This was a special year for special RFAs, many of whom are unsigned. They all can't have Dubas as the GM I guess.

It's not a contract dispute, it's a contract negotiation. The money the player is making, is made in these right things. The "underperformance" in this case meant three hatricks in three different countries within one month's time. A 100+ goal ELC is a disappointment if you compare to Teemu Selanne maybe.

Goals are sexy. But to win, you need more. There was a reason why Skinner didnt get continuation here. And why buffalo did not do any better even though there was Skinner making so many goals.

Almost all jet players, during all 3 years have better stats (corsi etc.) In time Without laine than with him.

I could take laine with few Mil to take him for PP specialist but otherwise i would not take this childiss problematic and actually not that good player to my team.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Goals are sexy. But to win, you need more. There was a reason why Skinner didnt get continuation here. And why buffalo did not do any better even though there was Skinner making so many goals.

Almost all jet players, during all 3 years have better stats (corsi etc.) In time Without laine than with him.

I could take laine with few Mil to take him for PP specialist but otherwise i would not take this childiss problematic and actually not that good player to my team.

*the sound of a massive record scratch coming from the direction of Finland*

 

[Lempo]

Goals are sexy. But to win, you need more. There was a reason why Skinner didnt get continuation here. And why buffalo did not do any better even though there was Skinner making so many goals.

Almost all jet players, during all 3 years have better stats (corsi etc.) In time Without laine than with him.

I could take laine with few Mil to take him for PP specialist but otherwise i would not take this childiss problematic and actually not that good player to my team.

Karpat or HIFK fan?

 

[NotOpie]

In the end, I think the issue will come down to price....not necessarily contract price, but the cost of acquisition.

Faulk + Necas + 1st probably doesn't get it done and it doesn't give us enough cap wiggle room either. I don't want to give up Nino who is apparently already well liked in the room. That Dougie and Foegele and Svech seem to be a thing. In the end, if we're saying that Laine will play up to the team chemistry (or if that's what we're hoping), then you can't take a hammer to that chemistry.

I'd love to have Laine on the team; I do believe he could end up being a fit. But I don't want him at the expense of needlessly tearing apart what has been built. That's why I believe, in the end, if Faulk gets moved it will be for futures mostly.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Just for fun, I put this all through the Armchair-GM tool on CapFriendly. If you have a login, here are the links:

Winnipeg: Post Carolina blockbuster - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
Carolina: Post Winnipeg blockbuster - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

The details:

Winnipeg:
FORWARDS (12)
Right wing: Blake Wheeler ($8,250,000) - Jack Roslovic ($894,166) - Martin Necas ($863,333) - Mason Appleton ($741,667)
Centre: Mark Scheifele ($6,125,000) - Bryan Little ($5,291,666) - Adam Lowry ($2,916,666) - Andrew Copp ($2,280,000)
Left wing: Kyle Connor ($9,000,000) - Nikolaj Ehlers ($6,000,000) - Mathieu Perreault ($4,125,000) - Gabriel Bourque ($700,000)
DEFENSE (7)
Right: Dustin Byfuglien ($7,600,000) - Justin Faulk ($4,833,333) - Neal Pionk ($3,000,000) - Sami Niku ($775,000)
Left: Joshua Morrissey ($3,150,000) - Dmitry Kulikov ($4,333,333) - Haydn Fleury ($850,000)
GOALTENDER (2)
Connor Hellebuyck ($6,166,666) - James Reimer ($3,400,000)
DETAILS
Roster Size: 21
Salary Cap: $81,500,000
Cap Hit: $81,295,830
Cap Space: $204,170

Carolina:
FORWARDS (13)
Right wing: Patrik Laine ($6,500,000) - Teuvo Teräväinen ($5,400,000) - Andrei Svechnikov ($925,000) - Jordan Martinook ($2,000,000)
Centre: Sebastian Aho ($8,454,000) - Jordan Staal ($6,000,000) - Erik Haula ($2,750,000) - Lucas Wallmark ($675,000) - Brian Gibbons ($725,000)
Left wing: Nino Niederreiter ($5,250,000) - Ryan Dzingel ($3,375,000) - Warren Foegele ($746,667) - Brock McGinn ($2,100,000)
DEFENSE (7)
Right: Dougie Hamilton ($5,750,000) - Brett Pesce ($4,025,000) - Trevor van Riemsdyk ($2,300,000)
Left: Jaccob Slavin ($5,300,000) - Jake Gardiner ($4,050,000) - Gustav Forsling ($874,125) - Fredrik Claesson ($700,000)
GOALTENDER (2)
Petr Mrázek ($3,125,000) - Laurent Brossoit ($1,225,000)
BUYOUTS (2)
Patrick Marleau ($6,250,000) - Alexander Semin ($2,333,333)
DETAILS
Roster Size: 22
Salary Cap: $81,500,000
Cap Hit: $80,833,125
Cap Space: $666,875

 

[MinJaBen]

Just for fun, I put this all through the Armchair-GM tool on CapFriendly. If you have a login, here are the links:

Winnipeg: Post Carolina blockbuster - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
Carolina: Post Winnipeg blockbuster - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

The details:

View attachment 255969

View attachment 255967

Winnipeg:
FORWARDS (12)
Right wing: Blake Wheeler ($8,250,000) - Jack Roslovic ($894,166) - Martin Necas ($863,333) - Mason Appleton ($741,667)
Centre: Mark Scheifele ($6,125,000) - Bryan Little ($5,291,666) - Adam Lowry ($2,916,666) - Andrew Copp ($2,280,000)
Left wing: Kyle Connor ($9,000,000) - Nikolaj Ehlers ($6,000,000) - Mathieu Perreault ($4,125,000) - Gabriel Bourque ($700,000)
DEFENSE (7)
Right: Dustin Byfuglien ($7,600,000) - Justin Faulk ($4,833,333) - Neal Pionk ($3,000,000) - Sami Niku ($775,000)
Left: Joshua Morrissey ($3,150,000) - Dmitry Kulikov ($4,333,333) - Haydn Fleury ($850,000)
GOALTENDER (2)
Connor Hellebuyck ($6,166,666) - James Reimer ($3,400,000)
DETAILS
Roster Size: 21
Salary Cap: $81,500,000
Cap Hit: $81,295,830
Cap Space: $204,170

Carolina:
FORWARDS (13)
Right wing: Patrik Laine ($6,500,000) - Teuvo Teräväinen ($5,400,000) - Andrei Svechnikov ($925,000) - Jordan Martinook ($2,000,000)
Centre: Sebastian Aho ($8,454,000) - Jordan Staal ($6,000,000) - Erik Haula ($2,750,000) - Lucas Wallmark ($675,000) - Brian Gibbons ($725,000)
Left wing: Nino Niederreiter ($5,250,000) - Ryan Dzingel ($3,375,000) - Warren Foegele ($746,667) - Brock McGinn ($2,100,000)
DEFENSE (7)
Right: Dougie Hamilton ($5,750,000) - Brett Pesce ($4,025,000) - Trevor van Riemsdyk ($2,300,000)
Left: Jaccob Slavin ($5,300,000) - Jake Gardiner ($4,050,000) - Gustav Forsling ($874,125) - Fredrik Claesson ($700,000)
GOALTENDER (2)
Petr Mrázek ($3,125,000) - Laurent Brossoit ($1,225,000)
BUYOUTS (2)
Patrick Marleau ($6,250,000) - Alexander Semin ($2,333,333)
DETAILS
Roster Size: 22
Salary Cap: $81,500,000
Cap Hit: $80,833,125
Cap Space: $666,875

You should put that on the Trades board. It would be....fun.

 

[jiitu]

Karpat or HIFK fan?

Neither

 

[tarheelhockey]

You should put that on the Trades board. It would be....fun.

“Fun”

 

[MinJaBen]

“Fun”

 

[Helsinki Hurricanes]

Just my 0.02 €. I believe the character issues of Laine are overblown. Yes, he doesn't do proper Ontario lad hockeytalk, he is a blunt and proud Finn who says what he thinks.

If Canes sign him, I can guarantee Laine will sign a decent bridge knowing he will be stapled to Aho's hip. If there's really a buy-low opportunity Canes should take it but not if the price is Faulk+Nino+Necas.

 

[geehaad]

not if the price is Faulk+Nino+Necas.

But isn't something equivalent to that going to be the price for Laine? Maybe WPG won't desire Nino, but you somehow have to open a hole for Laine in the lineup, both in terms of roster structure and salary. I suppose it could be a second defenseman instead of Nino, but then you're sliding one of Dzingel, Nino, Svech, or TT down to the third line...not to mention a kid like Gauthier trying to carve a spot out for himself. You've merely created for your forward group much of the same problem you were trying to fix with Faulk in the group of defensemen. And this doesn't even dip into how problematic it is to essentially define the core of your team for years without allowing it establish itself organically. All these awesome prospects ripening, young players creating the beginnings of organizational success, then you trade away roster players to bring in one guy and cement him into your lineup. Sure, it might work.

Putting the Faulk luxury aside, the Hurricanes don't currently have a problem they are trying to solve. Attempting to weed out that small problem by uprooting a small portion of the flower bed isn't wise.

Tellin' ya: Faulk for darts. Maybe non-first ones, but picks.

Addendum thought: how many times do we on HFBoards shut down potential trades because there *has* to be a (particular-positioned) roster player coming in return? We have a luxury with the Faulk situation in that we don't need anything. Darts are easy for your trade partner to give up, and we love playing darts.