2019/20 Roster Thread XXX - AKA the Ghost Thread

[JojoTheWhale]

If rumors of a major lingering neck injury are true then the shooting issue may not be something that reverts, either.

Well you'd probably expect some bounceback, even if he's cooked. Here are the bottom 20 Skaters this year in oiSH% on the PP with 50 Mins or more of time:

No one can keep that up.

Either he or Carchidi will. Only a matter of time.

One of the other Philadelphia area Hart voters.

 

[Appleyard]

Well there aren't 1700 voters, that's total voting points. But this is a good idea. For example, the Hart voting pool used to be 15-50ish people. 171 voted last year.

I'm glad they're making the votes public finally. It was a big step.

John Boruk got a vote.

Yeh, you are right there... my mistake!

But yeh, from late 90s to present day there are almost 100 voters more. With 3 more teams. 203% of the 84 there were to end the 90s.

Should probably be capped at around 90 voters really I think. ~2 from each team and then national guys.

 

[Appleyard]

This of course is overlooking the fact that the league is much bigger now. There were 6 teams in the league for most of the NHL's history. You're talking about going from more than 2 Hall of Famers per team to less than 1 for every two teams.

The 1959-60 Habs won the Stanley Cup and had 8 Hall of Famers. That team used 23 players all year, with 1 of them being a goalie who played 1 game and 3 other guys playing a total of 18 games. Every player on the roster was born in Canada.

Last year's Blues used 35 players, 31 of whom played more than 10 games, from 5 different countries.

The population of Canada in 1960 was 17.9 million people. Today it's 37.6 million people, and the NHL now includes players from much bigger countries like the United States, Germany and Russia, and also gets many players from the Czech Republic, Sweden and Finland.

Also, it's undeniable I think that the level of skill has risen each decade. Even in a much smaller league, there are many players from 1960 who could not play in today's NHL. The league has gotten exponentially bigger and better and tougher to compete in.

Yeh, when you look at the 1970s especially (once Russia+Czechs were already high end and some Swedes were v.good too).

End of the 70s there were ~400 NHL regulars. Probably ~60 or so of the best 300 players in the world were outside the NHL.

Since mid 90s? Maybe ~3 or so of the top 300 players in the world are not in the NHL.

 

[Striiker]

Well you'd probably expect some bounceback, even if he's cooked. Here are the bottom 20 Skaters this year in oiSH% on the PP with 50 Mins or more of time:

No one can keep that up.

Meanwhile Provorov's is 17.97%

One of the other Philadelphia area Hart voters.

Which is exactly why I think these awards are worthless.

 

[Appleyard]

Meanwhile Provorov's is 17.97%




Which is exactly why I think these awards are worthless.

I still think they have value and worth. I also think that probably ~60% of the voters watch a lot of hockey and put a lot of time and considered effort into their picks. But the issue is that there are some voters undermining that by not even bothering to research what position a player plays before they vote.

 

[Striiker]

I still think they have value and worth. I also think that probably ~60% of the voters watch a lot of hockey and put a lot of time and considered effort into their picks. But the issue is that there are some voters undermining that by not even bothering to research what position a player plays before they vote.

Going along with that hypothetical number, even 40% can be the difference between the right choice and the wrong choice, even if the other 60% are responsible and do their homework.

But personally, I think you’re being optimistic/generous. I think there’s a very small handful of good voters but the majority are idiots like our beats. I don’t buy for a second that the average local media guys are doing their homework and watching a significant sample of other top players. I think most go along with hype, reputations, storylines, and basic stats.

 

[baudib1]

Yeh, when you look at the 1970s especially (once Russia+Czechs were already high end and some Swedes were v.good too).

End of the 70s there were ~400 NHL regulars. Probably ~60 or so of the best 300 players in the world were outside the NHL.

Since mid 90s? Maybe ~3 or so of the top 300 players in the world are not in the NHL.

I think 3 is probably a little low but I agree generally.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I also think that probably ~60% of the voters watch a lot of hockey and put a lot of time and considered effort into their picks. But the issue is that there are some voters undermining that by not even bothering to research what position a player plays before they vote.

There are an awful lot of knowledgeable people on the list, as you said. It just needs some culling. I know you've looked, but here's the list for those that have never seen it:


Names like Murat Ates may not be recognizable to most, but he's as thorough a writer as I've come across for any team. He makes me more interested in what's happening with the Jets.

 

[Appleyard]

Going along with that hypothetical number, even 40% can be the difference between the right choice and the wrong choice, even if the other 60% are responsible and do their homework.

But personally, I think you’re being optimistic/generous. I think there’s a very small handful of good voters but the majority are idiots like our beats. I don’t buy for a second that the average local media guys are doing their homework and watching a significant sample of other top players. I think most go along with hype, reputations, storylines, and basic stats.

But just take the Flyers. O'Connor and Isaac (I cannot speak for anyone else either way)... whatever people think of them and their opinions each for sure take time and effort over such things that is for sure.

Maybe the NHL is different, but being in media tribunes and media centres at Worlds and WJCs and speaking to a fair amount of the hockey press... a lot of them do really know their stuff and take it pretty seriously. Now some dont that is for sure. But my best guess is in the ~60% range... especially now the voting ballots are public and can be analyzed.

 

[Striiker]

But just take the Flyers. O'Connor and Isaac (I cannot speak for anyone else either way)... whatever people think of them and their opinions each for sure take time and effort over such things that is for sure.

Maybe the NHL is different, but being in media tribunes and media centres at Worlds and WJCs and speaking to a fair amount of the hockey press... a lot of them do really know their stuff and take it pretty seriously. Now some dont that is for sure. But my best guess is in the ~60% range... especially now the voting ballots are public and can be analyzed.

Isaac??? Not saying you're wrong, but if that's true then holy hell does it not come across through his work or tweets at all.

I think he's damn near Carchidi levels of bad.

And yeah, I'd definitely believe there's a difference in effort between the NHL local media guys and guys who cover the WJC/Worlds.

 

[landsbergfan]

and some of you think being sent to LHV is useless for development...

 

[Starat327]

and some of you think being sent to LHV isn't useless for development...

So what you're saying is... it's time to call frost back up so he can score points now?

 

[Striiker]

and some of you think being sent to LHV isn't useless for development...

WE CALLED IT

That demotion fixed his game! It has nothing to do with playing with Couturier.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Isaac??? Not saying you're wrong, but if that's true then holy hell does it not come across through his work or tweets at all.

I think he's damn near Carchidi levels of bad.

And yeah, I'd definitely believe there's a difference in effort between the NHL local media guys and guys who cover the WJC/Worlds.

I see it too with Isaac. I don't agree with many of his conclusions, but he's always at practice and writing stories that aren't the same old push button approach. He's writing to his audience, which just so happens to not be me. That's ok.

 

[Appleyard]

I see it too with Isaac. I don't agree with many of his conclusions, but he's always at practice and writing stories that aren't the same old push button approach. He's writing to his audience, which just so happens to not be me. That's ok.

Yeh, I don't always like his opinions or agree with them. But I cannot doubt his professionalism. And he very rarely takes any kind of sensationalist slant even though that would probably help him get more clicks given audience and outlet and the media landscape right now... I can really respect that.

 

[Starat327]

Figured this was timely, given the discussion from earlier:

 

[Prongo]

Love the Kase trade thread and then Lebrun showing he is worth a prospect and a 3rd. Anaheim fans saying he could net a first rounder back. Dummies.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Love the Kase trade thread and then Lebrun showing he is worth a prospect and a 3rd. Anaheim fans saying he could net a first rounder back. Dummies.

Ya but did you see LeBruns insane offer for Kreider. Kyrou and a 1st. Dude is off his rocker

 

[Tripod]

Love the Kase trade thread and then Lebrun showing he is worth a prospect and a 3rd. Anaheim fans saying he could net a first rounder back. Dummies.

Yeah...someone also said it would have to be Sanheim....and that only Couturier and Giroux are worth more from our forwards.

Yes, you read that right....he said Kase has more value than Konecny.


Of course, once I saw Lebrun's post about his value from Curu, I offered Sushko+3rd.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

I still think they have value and worth. I also think that probably ~60% of the voters watch a lot of hockey and put a lot of time and considered effort into their picks. But the issue is that there are some voters undermining that by not even bothering to research what position a player plays before they vote.

You are being extremely generous with 60%.

Local coverage guys would barely watch outside of their own teams, national guys in Canada are only focused on the Canadian teams and I would be surprised if the national guys in the US watch more than a handful of games by teams outside the major markets.

I would guess a pretty healthy majority of writers who get to vote are grossly unqualified to do so based on what they actually watch. Most probably are heavily reliant on stats with minimal viewings of the players.

I mean, the writers vote on the Selke. How many writers actually watch enough of Barkov to have a legitimate grasp on his game? How many writers in the east actually watch the Kings to evaluate Kopitar?

It may be their job to watch hockey, but there's no way anyone is watching enough of all 31 teams to properly evaluate something like a Selke winner. Classic popularity contest award, but at least it seems like Couts is a pretty popular kid these days.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Kase’s fantastic. You can make a real argument he should have more trade value in a vacuum than Giroux given age and contracts.

If the league lets Kase go for Oskar Steen and a 3rd, either 30 GMs are completely incompetent or his medical red flags are major. It could definitely be the latter though. He’s had issues.

 

[TB87]

Yeah...someone also said it would have to be Sanheim....and that only Couturier and Giroux are worth more from our forwards.

Yes, you read that right....he said Kase has more value than Konecny.


Of course, once I saw Lebrun's post about his value from Curu, I offered Sushko+3rd.

Ondrej Kase is one of my favorite players (outside of the Flyers) in the NHL. He ends up on the injury report a bit too often though.

 

[lancer247]

That era... especially post expansion though... numbers actually went up because there were several teams who established teams would put 6-7 past a night on a regular basis.

MacLeish was great. I actually think he gets too little credit at times, especially when his best years and playoffs he was arguably better than Barber. But Giroux is a tier above.

I don’t disagree about Giroux. There a lot of Flyers they haven’t won a cup but it’s criminal that his career was spent during this time in the franchise.

 

[Tripod]

Ondrej Kase is one of my favorite players (outside of the Flyers) in the NHL. He ends up on the injury report a bit too often though.

Yeah...we don't need to add more people who can't stay healthy.


On the Giroux talk....reminder that he was VOTED at all 3 forward positions his 102 point year. So these guys didn't even know what position he played all year.

it won't shock me if he doesn't get in since he has been under rated his whole career.

 

[TB87]

Yeah...we don't need to add more people who can't stay healthy.


On the Giroux talk....reminder that he was VOTED at all 3 forward positions his 102 point year. So these guys didn't even know what position he played all year.

it won't shock me if he doesn't get in since he has been under rated his whole career.

I’m pretty sure the only reason ANA wants to get rid of Kase is because of the injuries. He’s a damn good player